[Jim Nugent]

I believe the routing of 13 holes included three or four par 3 holes, including three of them in a five-hole stretch.  

If you have four par 3 holes in your 13 holes, the course will be tougher against par for good players.  

[Adrian_Stiff]

I would try and keep it to 12 holes rather than 13. Two loops of 6 if you can or even try and get the 9th returning.

Maybe you could try 2 different greens for 6 holes or even build them larger as they are likely to get more play with two distinct pinning areas, you could even put two flags in.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

By chance  I have just finished constructing 12 Holes of a 13-Hole Golf Course in Sagogn, Switzerland.

By chance in that it’s the first stage of an 18-Hole project. The second phase will not start constuction for another year or so.

The client was keen to get as much of the course constructed as possible, thus the 13 Holes.

In order for the course to be registered with the Swiss Golf Assocation for handicap competitions the first 9 will be officially measured and the remaining 3 or 4 will be “practise holes”. Although the course hasn’t been opened or put into operation, the 12 or 13 Holes will be operated as a “round” on non-competition days.

It will be interesting to see how the golfers take to it.

[Phil McDade]

Brent:

Greetings from Wisconsin, where Kyle Weaver played his high school ball (just down the road from where I live) and was viewed as a decent player barely recruited by anyone. That has turned out well for you guys! (I saw him play in high school, and his growth as a player is pretty amazing, which is a testament to him. I've seen plenty of better-looking high school players go on to have marginal college careers; he's done just the opposite.)

On to golf -- I've played the 12-hole Shiskine course, and it is awfully neat (Sean's comments notwithstanding; he and I differ on its merits). But the course really is a product of its setting -- on a very narrow piece of land, between the sea and some towering cliffs (a few holes, its most famous ones, play up to and then down from the cliffs), and incorporating funky landforms that create some neat blind shots and punchbowl greens. It is pretty low-key, and it's what's known in the UK as a "sporty" course (lots of par 3s and shortish par 4s). I think it'd be hard to replicate, owing mainly to the uniqueness of its locale.

I've never quite understood why odd-sized courses (12 holes, maybe even 15 holes) have never taken root here, or anywhere else, to a great extent. I think it's a real untapped market, because many times I've gone around a 9-hole round in far less than two hours wanting more, but not having the time to play (or more likely wait through) a full 18 holes. I think a 12-hole course works particularly well, if it's two returning loops, along the model described in Fargo, as it allows for some flexibility and might serve as a good intro. for juniors, who may only be able to handle six holes starting off.

Good luck with the project.

[Forrest Richardson]

You would have to overcome the comfort level of both developer/owner and the customer/golfer. That has been the problem, even with 9-hole-ers, now a taboo type of course.

My prediction is that we will see a resurge of 9-hole courses and, possibly, some alternative courses...maybe some 12-, 13- etc. hole-ers.

Remember, Leith Links was originally a 5-hole layout. Leith being among the earliest known clubs ever established.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Actually, I have heard that Forrest has designed several 16, 17 and 19 hole courses, quite unintentionally of course.

Nonetheless, when questioned, he tells people that was just the way he wanted it, and that was his story and he was sticking to it!

Actually, almost every gca has a story similar to one I experienced when starting with KN - We stayed up all night to do a presentation routing for a sales call.  Nugent comes back saying that during the middle of his presentation, he notes someone counting holes with his finger, and sure enough, we only got 17 holes in.

Nugent covered by saying "When you hire us, we'll show you where the 18th hole goes!"

[Tom_Doak]

Brent:

That is the same map I gave to Jordan Wall for his own high school project.  I didn't realize Brian had given it to you, too ... so I guess it's a contest now.  

I actually mentioned the project here last summer, asking the board which they would prefer -- a really good full-length nine holes, an 18-hole par-3 with a driving range, or an executive-length 18.  The response was pretty well evenly divided, which surprised me.  

I didn't offer the choice of a 13-hole solution, just because I've done something like that before, and I know it is limiting to the business plan.  If that's the best solution, go for it, but don't be surprised at the feedback!

PS  By the way, FYI and for Pete Lavallee, I was told that Shiskine was originally an 18-hole course but the last few holes were too hilly and not fun, so they were often skipped, and eventually they were just abandoned.

[Matthew Hunt]

Brent:

That is the same map I gave to Jordan Wall for his own high school project.  I didn't realize Brian had given it to you, too ... so I guess it's a contest now.  

I actually mentioned the project here last summer, asking the board which they would prefer -- a really good full-length nine holes, an 18-hole par-3 with a driving range, or an executive-length 18.  The response was pretty well evenly divided, which surprised me.  

I didn't offer the choice of a 13-hole solution, just because I've done something like that before, and I know it is limiting to the business plan.  If that's the best solution, go for it, but don't be surprised at the feedback!

PS  By the way, FYI and for Pete Lavallee, I was told that Shiskine was originally an 18-hole course but the last few holes were too hilly and not fun, so they were often skipped, and eventually they were just abandoned.

Tom, did you post a thing on-site about this?

[Brent Boardman]

Hey everyone.  Sorry it has taken me so long to write back - I've been away from the office and internet for about five days.  I hope everyone had a pleasant Christmas.


John,
If you can manage to remember, let me know how things progress on the 13 holes.  It would be interesting to hear.



Phil,
That's pretty cool that you've been able to see Kyle Weaver mature into the player he is now.  I've been trying to keep up on the team as much as possible, though they haven't been on television much to this point.  Currently ranked #4...but a lot of tough games coming up in January.

Time played was definitely something I'm taking into consideration.  So many people complain about the length of the round and pace of play - why not play a couple less holes?  I don't know, it may just be another novelty that could wear off.  It's something to think about, for sure.



Forrest and Jeff:  Thanks for the tidbits.  It's awesome to receive advice and feedback from people I've read and read about.  That's why I'm beginning to like this board so much  .



Tom,
Great to hear from you (by the way, I sent an email to your office a couple of weeks back).  Brian actually just introduced me to one of the developers via email, which I'm very grateful for.  I visited the site a couple of times and met with a manager there, and a girl from their office sent me a CAD file.  I hope to visit at least once more this spring.  Although, I'm not sure if I'm ready for any competitions yet, lol.  

One of the reasons I'm considering something besides 9 or 18 holes (outside of the idea of what would fit best in the area they laid out for me) is that my professors really yawn when I mention anything that has to do with golf.  I haven't even been able to suggest anything golf-related to this point - we're finally given full creative freedom in the 5th year.  I feel like I have to put some kind of interesting spin on it just to gain interest.  In the end, I'm gonna go with whatever I think fits, especially since it's hypothetical (maybe I'll get the chance to present to the owners though).  At this point in my studies, I gladly welcome any feedback, whether it be positive, negative, or just plain frustrated.  There's a giant iceber of knowledge and experience out there, and I'm just holding on to the tip at the moment...

As for Shiskine, I read that it had become an 18 hole course at one point (around 1912).  Apparently there was a war a few years after, which led to the holes being slightly "dismantled." Of course, no one really used them anymore, and they apprently just fell by the wayside.




Brent

[Jeff_Lewis]

I love the idea of three loops of 6  holes. 18 if you have the time and inclination, but a wonderful 6 after work, or 12 on a Saturday morning to rush back to the kids.

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