[Brent Boardman]

Okay, let me first say that I'm a newbie and I'm not sure if this has been discussed here before.  I'm also a bit wary to ask it because I'm not sure what the response will be.  However...

What are your thoughts / what would you say to a proposed course not being composed of a multiple of nine holes?  [A course affiliated with a vacation home community and not tournament-bound.]  What do you deem the pros and cons - what are the implications?

[Pete Lavallee]

Welcome aboard B. There is a 12 hole course in Scotland on the Isle of Arron called Shiskine which I believe is very popular. I don't know if it has returning sixes so you can play the front or back six to complete an 18 hole round though.

[JESII]

I would want an even number of holes for nassau purposes...

[Tom Huckaby]

The question has been floated here before - why not build a course with an odd number of holes?  The idea being that 13 good holes is better than 18 mediocre ones.

And therein lies the key:  if the 13 holes are great, people will play it and love it, as they do the one in Scotland that Pete mentions.  But it better be that kind of quality - the course there apparently is quirky as heck, next to the sea, etc.  You're gonna have to make the course stand out if you are to overcome the obvious negatives in perception.

Re posting scores (if this is a US course), that can be done... you could do a 9 hole rating for sure, and I'm pretty sure a 9 hole rating could be extrapolated.  But you state it's "not tournament-bound" so that seems like a non-issue anyway.

I'll say this:  if someone built a 13 hole course near me and the holes were good, I sure as heck wouldn't avoid it because of the odd number.

TH

[Steve_Lovett]

We have contemplated a 12 hole course project - one in which the routing has been developed to be played as a 3 hole loop (more than one), three six hole loops, a nine hole loop (two alternatvies), or twelve holes in sequence...

I don't know how the "market" would receive such a facility, but given the scarcity of time and land, I think such an innovation could be very successful.

[Brent Boardman]

There is a 12 hole course in Scotland on the Isle of Arron called Shiskine which I believe is very popular. I don't know if it has returning sixes so you can play the front or back six to complete an 18 hole round though.

Pete,

Thanks for the reference - it will help in developing and justifying/defending my final product.  

Shiskine doesn't appear to have returning sixes.  When needed for official rules, they play 1 (13th), 2 (14th), 9 (16th), 11 (17th), and 12 (18th) once more, along with an artificial 15th hole, surprisingly.  However, it seems that most of their competitions are simply played on 12 holes.


Brent

[Kalen Braley]

I've seen this topic kicked around a bit...but I just don't really "get" courses that would be anything except 9 or 18.

If you have the time, play 18, if not play 9.  Why go to something new where the handicap system and peoples expectations would have to be marketed, explained, and reset?

I guess my real question is what does 12 or 13 holes get you that you can't get by just playing 9??  As most courses have returning 9 loops as well as a 9 hole rate this seems to solve these issues.

As an exception you may have a piece of land limited to say 75 acres where you clearly can't get 18 in, so you build 13..  I guess that could be a use case.  But then once again, why not just build 9 and leave a little space in between the holes.

[Brent Boardman]

Kalen,

I have to agree with the thoughts of Tom and Steve on this one.  Persuading the market might be difficult, but why not build 13 good holes instead of a mediocre 18?  And why stop at nine if the site holds more opportunity?  

The problem with the market is that it can become overly used to perceived norms, akin to the idea that every course should resemble one they see tediously manicured for a televised tournament (which is ludicrous and an entirely different discussion).  Golf existed for at least 300 years without a set number of holes - St. Andrews set the standard in 1764 and made 18 holes an official match in 1858.  And wasn't it Alister Mackenzie who said something about regretting the suggestion of nine-hole loops?  I assume he felt it dictated his routings too heavily.  Though, it is easy to understand the reasoning behind the idea, so maybe even a 13-hole course should try to land near the clubhouse after nine.  

I would like to think, as Tom said, that people would still play and enjoy a quality (and possibly quirky) course that did not fall under a multiple of nine.  Just some thoughts...


Brent

[Tom Huckaby]

Brent: again, the tough part is going to be the QUALITY issue.  I think what Kalen says holds a lot of merit, and will be the prevailing initial view.  But if the holes are great, people will come - oh yes they will.  You're also going to get a lot of first-time looks just because of the novelty.  The key will be that in order to get repeat business, the holes will have be a whole lot better or at least more unique than the existing 9 or 18 hole courses around.

If you accomplish that, I really believe it can be a success.

But of course that's not easy.

 

[Brent Boardman]

Tom,

Agreed.  I definitely take what Kalen said to heart - after all, he (and the rest of us) represents the market.  Indeed, the course would have to speak loud enough to do much of the long-term persuading on its own.


Brent

[Sean_A]

There is a 12 hole course in Scotland on the Isle of Arron called Shiskine which I believe is very popular. I don't know if it has returning sixes so you can play the front or back six to complete an 18 hole round though.

Pete,

Thanks for the reference - it will help in developing and justifying/defending my final product.  

Shiskine doesn't appear to have returning sixes.  When needed for official rules, they play 1 (13th), 2 (14th), 9 (16th), 11 (17th), and 12 (18th) once more, along with an artificial 15th hole, surprisingly.  However, it seems that most of their competitions are simply played on 12 holes.


Brent

Brent

AwsHuckster is partially correct.  Shiskine is funky, but it isn't terribly good.  There are a few good holes, but the funk (of which 12 holes is certainly an aspect of), the views, the location and the price sell the place.  Another huge aspect of the success is low overheads in terms of maintenance and clubhouse.  The place is very low key.  

I wouldn't be put off by a 13 holer.  In fact, I like the idea far better than a 9 holer and it could be especially appealing if the 9th (in addition to the 13th) made it back to the house (9 hole rate & a 2nd starting point).  Of course, it would behoove you to make sure there was compelling golf after the 9th or it won't get play.

Ciao

[Mike Mosely]

The question has been floated here before - why not build a course with an odd number of holes?  The idea being that 13 good holes is better than 18 mediocre ones.

And therein lies the key:  if the 13 holes are great, people will play it and love it, as they do the one in Scotland that Pete mentions.  But it better be that kind of quality - the course there apparently is quirky as heck, next to the sea, etc.  You're gonna have to make the course stand out if you are to overcome the obvious negatives in perception.

Re posting scores (if this is a US course), that can be done... you could do a 9 hole rating for sure, and I'm pretty sure a 9 hole rating could be extrapolated.  But you state it's "not tournament-bound" so that seems like a non-issue anyway.

I'll say this:  if someone built a 13 hole course near me and the holes were good, I sure as heck wouldn't avoid it because of the odd number.

TH

Tom I couldn't agree more.  I have no problem with courses that have a 19th hole ON the course as well as off and I think the Sheep Ranch is terrific that it has a different number of holes every time you tee off or has 18 holes in whatever par gets concocted, so sure...if the price were fair and the holes were interesting, I'll take 13, 15, 22, I'll try anything once.

[Mike Nuzzo]

If I lived there I'd play it all the time.
How many acres do you have to work with?
Is it a core golf course? - much more efficient golf use of the land
Cheers

[Jim Nugent]

Two other benefits of the 13 hole course:

1.  Helps solve the time problem.  No more 5 hour rounds;

2.  Helps keep greens fees down.  

[Kevin Atkinson]

I designed a 12-hole golf course in Fargo ND (Osgood GC) for the Fargo Park District which opened for play a couple of years ago.  The layout routed into 4 distinct three-hole loops bringing golfers back to the clubhouse on every third hole.  This allows them to play three-, six- or nine- or twelve-hole rounds.  My goal was too create a very flexible facility allowing golfers to create what they want or the Park District to organize the holes in many different ways.  

Typically they have a 9-hole traditional course with a three-hole practice loop.  The "main" practice loop has two par-3s and a par-4, or golfers can make up different golf holes utilizing eight additional tees scattered around simulating anything from a 60-yard par-3 to a 515-yard par-5th.  This area is also used as an alternate practice range or the most complete teaching center imaginable.  

The practice range with bentgrass target greens and sand bunkers that can also be converted into a six-hole chip-and-putt course.

The facility was originally designed for their HUGE junior golf program, but it is utilized by all caliber of golfers at all ages even thought it is an executive length course.  After two years of operation they are exceeding their financial projections.

[Jason Topp]

This one has about 13 depending on how you count

[Brent Boardman]

Sean,
The last four holes would definitely have to be just as interesting as the first 9.  I'll be working on some options for alternate starting points and hole progressions in the coming weeks.


Mike,
The property in total includes about 600 acres, but the portion that presents an opportunity for golf (in my opinion) is much, much less.  Maybe 150 acres?  I haven't actually measured the area out yet.  The site includes a lot of elevation change.  It's not a core course - it's actually not a largely populated area, though it's beginning to see quite a bit of growth.


Jim,
Thanks for mentioning time; I have been going over the connotations in my head...


Kevin,
The reference is much appreciated.  This will be an excellent case study.


Thanks to Mike and Jason for your input as well.




Happy Holidays everyone,
Brent

[Mike Nuzzo]

Brent,

Are you planning housing on the course?
Why or how did you pick 13 holes as the optimum plan?
Where will the golfers come from?
Is it your property?
With a non-traditional golf course you can go as non-traditional (or interesting) as you like and still have it be fun.

Cheers

[Brent Boardman]

Mike,

There will be no housing on the course.  It is actually across the road (and about 1,200 ft. above) a 2nd home/summer rental type development.  The developers have their sites set on building a course.  It also seems that the draw for golf is rising in the area.  

As far as 13 holes, it's only one of the routings I've come up with; I just used the example to start some discussion here.  To sum up my method, I outlined the area that I felt feasible for construction (as I said before, there are a lot of elevation changes, and I'm not one for a lot of earth moving), and just let the topography influence the best green sites and the subsequent routing.  In this example, 13 holes is the most I felt the site could offer without compromising its character or the holes.  Reading some of the feedback here has helped spark some alternate ideas, so I'm grateful people decided to participate  


Brent

[Mike Nuzzo]

You're quote looked like you were a designer -- do you work on your own or for a firm?
If only every potential client had that quote at the tip of their tongue...

How many par 3s did you include?
Shared fariways are more difficult when trying to traverse elevation changes - although the ones at Stone Eagle look cool.

Not being constrained to a number of holes seems like one could do almost anything - have the routing studies be as radical as possible as.

Or you could have a really nice 9 holer and a junior/beginner 3-4 hole course or something interesting.

[Kalen Braley]

Brent,

I just noticed you live in Spokane, WA and are a cougs fan....I lived in the area off and on for about 6 years.  Is this piece off property located in the Spokane area?  And if so whereabouts.

In my travels around the Spokane area I noticed a couple of spots that would be a good place for a course and for fun would try to imagine how I would route/fit a course in.

Kalen

[Brent Boardman]

Mike,
To be honest, I'm actually doing this as a senior project for my program at WSU (I didn't want to mention it at first in case it deterred people from responding).  I was introduced to the developers of this site via email by Brian Slawnik (I worked with him a little while I did an internship for Renaissance Golf on one of their constructions in central Oregon over the summer).  They were suprisingly receptive, and seem pretty open to ideas, so I felt fortunate for the opportunity as hypothetical as it really is.

I believe the routing of 13 holes included three or four par 3 holes, including three of them in a five-hole stretch.  As for shared fairways, I'm going to do my best to keep the actual turf to a minimum, so they will be nominal at best.  I actually looked at Stone Eagle online a week or two ago - funny you mention it.  One thing's for sure: I definitely need to do a lot more routings.



Kalen,
As I wrote, I'm a WSU student (and, naturally, a fan ).  The fourth (and fifth, if the student chooses) year of my program is in Spokane.  I've been studying off-campus this semester, but am moving back to Spokane in two weeks to finish up my final semester.  The site of the proposed course is actually in north-central WA.



Brent

[Kalen Braley]

Brent,

Very cool.  There is lots of decent and cheap land in WA state, especially on the east side of the cascades.

If you go for a drive there is some interesting land with tons of undulation in some farmland northeast of Spokane.  Take 90 East bound and head north on Argonne Road and you'll see it once you get on the other side of the hills on the north side of Spokane Valley.  The soil isn't sandy, but the land contouring left over from the glacial floods has created some interesting stuff.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Brent,
Good for you - sound like a great professional project - and a senior project.
It sounds like that summer was more than just educational.

Do you want your routings evaluated?
Have you sent any to Brian?
Cheers

[Brent Boardman]

Kalen,
I don't know if I've ever had a reason to drive out Argonne (in fact, I think I've only been to the Valley two or three times), but now I do  .  I'll for sure take a look this spring.


Mike,
Thanks.  The summer was certainly educational - I hope it opens the door to further opportunity.

As much anxiety as it will undoubtedly cause me, lol, I would like to have my routings evaluated.  I haven't mentioned it to Brian yet because I haven't done nearly enough at this point (literally, only a couple).  Are you offering up insight?  I wouldn't be ready until some time next month, but I welcome the prospect...


Brent

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