[Mike Sweeney]

If there is a sport that needs to integrate minorities better than golf, its hockey!  I look forward to the day when kids of all colors from new hockey hotbeds like Dallas work their way into the NHL.  

Contrary to what people may think, squash has done a pretty good job of integrating. My son is very into it now and the kids from City Squash are very competitive.

http://www.citysquash.org/index.htm



US Squash is led by a 30something guy that move the headquarters from Main Line Philly to Manhattan this past year. He knows how to get press too:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/fashion/09squash.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

[Dan Kelly]

If there is a sport that needs to integrate minorities better than golf, its hockey!

If there is a sport that's more expensive than golf, it's hockey.

Right?

Maybe we need a First Faceoff Foundation.

[Jerry Kluger]

The problem with junior programs at public courses in my area is that the reduced rate does not apply on the weekends.  So walking at my local muni costs $52 time 3 on the weekend.  The fact is that my private club is not much more than the muni on an annual basis plus you have the other amenities including pool and tennis. You might have to sacrifice a week of vacation and just stay home and use the club instead of going away but to me its worth it.

I don't care what the cost difference is: there is no comparison between spending 4 hours with your kid on a golf course versus watching a 2 hour long baseball game or one hour of soccer.

[Kirk Gill]

John - thanks for your question and offer of help.

There are First Tee programs available in Denver, which is a bit of a hoof for us, but it's something that I've been looking into since committing myself to a golf-filled summer with my children in this coming year. There are issues with First Tee that I would need to work around. For instance, for Parent/Jr. events I'm only able to register one child at a time, and that's what I really want - not just for my children to learn the game, but to get to spend that time with them, rather than just turning them over to an instructor, if that makes sense.

But geez, thanks for the link to Murphy Creek. THAT is do-able. Just gotta open my damn eyes to see it. What disappoints me is that I played there myself earlier this year, but did not find out about the Jr. rate. Again, my bad. It's a little over 20 miles away, and that's right in my wheelhouse. Guess I should shut my mouth and stop crying in public if I haven't done enough research. Thank you sir.

[RJ_Daley]

I think all activities suffer from the sheer amount of other activities and the realization that kids (and moms, dads) can only do so many.  Even TV has suffered declining ratings.

Jeff, I think that is something of a bottom line and a modern reality.  People, families, and just kids are pulled in multiple directions.  Everything is competing with everything else.  

I have a question for those of you who are at least 45 years old, who are core golfers, and who have been playing since at least early teen years.  When you were in your teens, how did you get to the golf course's where you played.  How close was it to your home?  

What I'm getting at, is that back in the day, kids 12 and older were not dependent on their parents to get to their recreational venues.  All parks, and golf facilities (ranges, 9 holers, and muni 18s) in our town were within a bike ride or on bus lines.  And, they were all affordable to most any working class blue collar family, kids.  It wasn't unusual at all to see kids 12+ peddling their bikes with a golf bag slung on their shoulders/back, or ride the bus with your bags.  Now, despite public transportation, kids rarely take the bus in either of the Wisconsin towns I'm familiar with (Madison and Green Bay).  They are rediculously dependant on parents to chauffer them around (car pools of soccer moms, etc.) to get to any of the recreational venues.  And, it is all organized for them to a fare-thee-well.  Once the kids get ~15-16, someone in the peer groupl has a car, and they are already set in their recreational likes and dislikes, and usually by-pass golf.

Could just getting the younger kids easily to the course be a factor along with affordable jr rates where they can hang out as kids without parents.  Of course the golf facility or range marshall will have to be a real Marshall, like Matt Dillon to keep'em in line...  

[John Kavanaugh]

Kirk,

Thanks for the kind comments.  I challenge anyone to show me an area in the country where there is not affordable junior golf.

[Jerry Kluger]

JK: I live in Montgomery County, Maryland - the county owned course near my home has no junior rates on the weekend where it is $52 to walk.

[Mike Sweeney]

JK: I live in Montgomery County, Maryland - the county owned course near my home has no junior rates on the weekend where it is $52 to walk.

Jerry,

I have used the First Tee Facility in The Bronx. Yours in MD appears to be free:

http://www.thefirstteemontgomerycountymaryland.org/club/scripts/section/section.asp?GRP=2339&NS=GPI

While John is probably right about the money issue, it still does not change the fact that it is tough to get 12 kids physically to a course in The Bronx. Read Kelly's post.

[John Kavanaugh]

JK: I live in Montgomery County, Maryland - the county owned course near my home has no junior rates on the weekend where it is $52 to walk.

How about East Potamac http://www.golfdc.com/gc/ep/rates.htm

[Jerry Kluger]

JK: Interesting that they don't have weekend junior rates.  I pay a ton of money in taxes to Montgomery County and I think I should be able to play the courses that my taxes are going to and are closer to my house.  Besides which you can call me a snob but I could not take a steady diet of East Potomac.  On top of all of this the fees for a bucket of range balls is higher at my muni then they are at a private range which has lights and heaters. The bottom line is that the county views golf as a rich person's sport and keeps the courses open simply because they are greenspace.  It is one of  the most politically correct counties you will ever find and I had better get off the subject or I am going to offend someone and be banished from the county.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm not a huge believer in weekend Junior rates.  I like to see kids playing with kids while Dad or both parents are at work.  I love the image of Rosita the maid flirting with Jose the greenkeeper while Jr. is out hitting the links.  Rosita might even fall in love and drag the kid to the course kicking and screaming.  Hmmm...that is what mom did to me from 8 yrs old till 12.

I have no idea where Montgomery county is and only searched DC because I thought I recalled either you or your wife working there.  Give me some time and I will find you a deal closer to home, can you give me a town to work with.

[Adam Clayman]

I've never seen anyone destroy a course more than a group of kids golfing with kids. Taking chunks of bunker edges out because they were unable to deal emotionally, with their lack of success in extricating themselves from said bunker.

[RJ_Daley]

Yeah Adam, but I was talking 'back in the day' where a kid being abusive would get a kick in the ass by an adult or course crew, or at the least a good stern talking to and ordered off the course until they would behave.  And, if they ran home to tell mommy and daddy, they would get another kick in the ass there.

[Kirk Gill]

I do believe that in some areas there is a market for architecturally basic, inexpensive golf courses. One local example I found interesting.

There's a course north of Denver called Riverdale Dunes. Designed by Pete and Perry Dye (Mr. Doak also worked on the course, although I've never read exactly who did what there), it is a terrific golf course, and a great value ($39 on weekends). There is also a sister course there, Riverdale Knolls (no designer is credited with the course on the Riverdale website) which is a fairly uninteresting design but even less expensive ($26 on weekends).

Given the qualities of the Dunes course, I would expect that it would get the majority of play. When my friends want to golf out there, none of us ever even brings up playing the Knolls.

But it turns out that the numbers skew the other way. Last year the Knolls course had 44,000 rounds, while the dunes had 38,000. Of course, since the Dunes charges a higher fee, the lower number of rounds still turns out to be more gross dollars, although the maintenance budget may be higher for the Dunes course (more elaborate bunkering, mowing, etc).

Still, more folks, given the choice, played the less-expensive, less interesting course. Not sure what it means, but it's worth noting I suppose.......

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