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gookin

Classic Architerure and Trees
« on: December 15, 2007, 11:31:50 AM »
I am preparing for a town hall meeting at Fox Chapel Golf Club to discuss the 2008 Tree Improvement Plan. The foundation of our plan is agronomics and corridors of play. The plan includes some planting, lots of pruning, and some targeted removal. I am looking for quotes from the classic guys(Raynor and McDonald preferred). I currently have some from  Scotland Golf's Gift and from The Confidential Guide where Tom Doak delicately commented on our arboretum issues. I am hoping this crowd came provide me with some additional amo in the form of quotes to include in our presentation. As you all know education of members is a constant process. I will be happy to share with those who want to help.

Ian Andrew

Re:Classic Architerure and Trees
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2007, 12:04:11 PM »
Here's a couple - I have more but I'll need to dig to find them. They are all in old reports unfortunately.

Playing down fairways bordered by straight lines of trees is not only unartistic but makes tedious and uninteresting golf. Many green committees ruin one’s handiwork by planting trees like rows of soldiers along the borders of the fairways.  ALISTER MACKENZIE

(while not about trees directly - I use this oe a lot when explaining about trees)
The golf architect is not at all concerned with chastising bad play. On the contrary, it is his business to arrange the field of play as to stimulate interest, and hence, the province of hazards is to chasten the too ambitious.  MAX BEHR

It is more or less accepted fact that trees are not the best of hazards, for the obvious reason that they unfortunately afford but slight opportunity for the display of golfing skill in extricating the ball from their clutches…but they are undoubtedly charming features in a landscape view.  H.S. COLT

Trees and shrubbery beautify the course, and natural growth should never be cut down if it is possible to save it; but he who insists on preserving a tree where it spoils a shot should have nothing to say about golf course construction.
GEORGE THOMAS

(warning I split this one in a report and it may have a slight error)
I have no qualms about removing trees to bring in the sight trees such as a stately oak, hickory or elm. Playing through the woods should not be overdone. It may be quite monotonous. A.W. TILLINGHAST

wsmorrison

Re:Classic Architerure and Trees
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2007, 12:29:23 PM »
William Flynn on Trees

Flynn had a modern outlook on the use of trees on golf courses.  His theories and practical use of trees were a radical departure from that of architects in the Old World.  Flynn’s ideas represented a new approach to golf design and one that remains controversial to this day.  In America there probably is no greater source of dispute on classic course restorations where trees have proliferated.  There are tree huggers and tree haters and few philosophies in between.  The fact is that Flynn spent a great deal of time studying trees and using them in both strategic and aesthetic ways on golf courses.

The first use of trees to consider is the segregation of holes.  George Crump was an advocate of the use of trees to segregate holes at Pine Valley Golf Club.  As Crump’s great friend, Dr. Simon Carr wrote in his January 1915 article on Pine Valley for Golf Illustrated,

“There is the peace of seclusion, nature’s godly beauty, the pure joy of most excellent golf.  With a sturdy old friend by your side to share it all—what more could an earthly Paradise be?"

Flynn adopted the segregation of holes as a design philosophy although not in all instances.  The setting determined his use of trees.  Flynn appreciated vistas and the effects of wind and did not wish to exclude these factors from play.  Yet, where the golf course was being laid out on a forested property, Flynn would cut hole corridors through the trees and not raze the woodlands in favor of golf.  Where courses were laid out on open farmland, Flynn often planted trees to create enhanced angles of play and a limited amount of segregation between holes.  The trees were usually planted 40 yards from the centerline creating 80-yard wide playing corridors.

“The pleasantest type of course is one where the holes are segregated, that is where the hole you happen to be playing is well apart from the others.  In order to have this kind of course it is necessary to secure property that is already wooded or to do considerable planting of trees.

The old idea was to have golf courses as free from trees as possible.  This notion, no doubt, was imported from Scotland because when golf was first taken up in the United States we knew very little about the game and modeled our courses on those of the Scotch which were, for the most part, built along the seashore where there were no trees.

It is impossible to conceive that the ‘Canny Scots’ would have denuded their courses of trees if there had been any there originally.  As a race they are entirely too thrifty for any such waste as that.

Today the old ideas have been discarded and the prevailing belief is that trees, most emphatically, have a fixed place on a golf course.  This is true for many reasons:

First-Because there are few, if any, sites available that are devoid of trees and it is a costly operation to cut them down and remove them.

Second-Trees add beauty to a course forming picturesque backgrounds and delightful vistas.

Third-Their shade is most refreshing on a hot summer day.

Fourth-They are of great practical value in segregating the various holes."
[/i]

Flynn planted strategic trees at Indian Creek, Boca Raton North, Boca Raton South, Cherry Hills Country Club, Rolling Green and other courses.  He utilized existing trees in strategic ways at Rolling Green, Huntingdon Valley, Manufacturers and elsewhere.  

One of the most interesting uses of trees was the plan Flynn developed for Shinnecock Hills Golf Club.  There were few trees on the site and Flynn intended to implement a tree planting scheme that was innovative and applauded by Charles Alison in his review of Flynn’s plans.  Flynn called for the planting of shorter trees at low elevations and taller trees on higher elevations in order to enhance the look and feel of the topographic movement.  It appears that the club never did act on the plan; perhaps the Great Depression impacted the implementation of the plan, as it was a costly one.  

"It might also be that moving a tee slightly to the right or left precludes the necessity of taking out some beautiful tree.  This also applies to green sites.  Sometimes a slight change in the alignment of the hole permits the architect to keep a specimen tree or trees which may also act as a key turning point in the hole.”

Flynn’s use of trees for their beauty, shade and strategic values distinguish him from many of his contemporaries.  Today, proper tree management plans need to be carefully considered so that intended lines of play are not taken away by tree encroachment and turf health is maintained.  When trees and grasses compete for nutrients and sun, the trees invariably win.


Mike McGuire

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Re:Classic Architerure and Trees
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2007, 12:43:26 PM »


Joshua Crane , recently discussed here. Writing about Pine valley in 1927.

"No matter how wild the shot, it is
an axiom of golf that an opportunity
should be given to recover part of the
loss if the player is skilful enough,
the amount of recovery to be in pro-
portion to the skill. But where the
character of the rough is bad, due to
trees, rocks, bushes, buildings, etc in
close proximity to the course, the pen-
alty varies often from nothing to
stroke and distance, and often the
worse shot is not penalized at all
placing the poorest player imme-
diately on a par with the most skilful
temporarily. "


"Here at Pine Valley judicious clear-
ing and removal of spasmodic penal-
ties would make the course the finest
yet seen. Some day this will be done,
and this extremely fine course will
take first place by virtue of its beauti-
ful terrain with its drainage and con-
tours and design not marred by ill
advised pettiness."





Ken Moum

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Re:Classic Architerure and Trees
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2007, 12:54:12 PM »
Here's some:

It is more or less accepted fact that trees are not the best of hazards, for the obvious reason that they unfortunately afford but slight opportunity for the display of golfing skill in extricating the ball from their clutches…but they are undoubtedly charming features in a landscape view. -- H.S. Colt

"Hills on a golf course are a detriment. Mountain climbing is a sport in itself and has no place on a golf course. Trees in the courses are also a serious defect, and even when in close proximity prove a detriment." -- Charles Blair MacDonald, Scotland's Gift, GOLF, 1928

03 "Trees and shrubbery beautify the course, and natural growth should never be cut down if it is possible to save it; but he who insists on preserving a tree where it spoils a shot should have nothing to say about golf course construction.” George C. Thomas, Golf Architecture in America, 1927

Playing down fairways bordered by straight lines of trees is not only unartistic but makes tedious and uninteresting golf. Many green committees ruin one’s handiwork by planting trees like rows of soldiers along the borders of the fairways. -- Alister Mackenzie

"Nature must always be the architect’s model. The lines of bunkers and greens must not be sharp or harsh, but easy and rolling. The development of the natural features and planning of artificial work to conform to them requires a great deal of care and forethought . . .it is good to have an eye for the beautiful. Often it is possible, by clearing away undesirable and unnecessary trees in the margin of fairways, to open up a view of some attractive picture. Strive to retain as much of the natural ground formation as possible. The most beautiful courses are the ones that hew most closely to nature." -- Stanley Thompson

"As beautiful as trees are, and as fond as you and I are of them, we still must not lose sight of the fact that there is a limited place for them in golf. We must not allow our sentiments to crowd out the real intent of a golf course, that of providing fair playing conditions. If it in any way interferes with a properly played stroke, I think the tree is an unfair hazard and should not be allowed to stand."
-- Donald Ross, Golf Has Never Failed Me

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Bill Brightly

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Re:Classic Architerure and Trees
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2007, 08:17:20 PM »
David,

Good luck with the meeting. I would think with Oakmont as a neighbor, and the 3000 trees they took out, much of the heavy opposition  would be quelled in your club.

I am sure that you have the USGA reports on turf improvement. Did you consider inviting your USGA agronomist to the meeting? I think  that makes it much easier than "member-to-member" debate.

Wayne,

I'm sure David really appreciates your Flynn tree-hugger quotes!  


wsmorrison

Re:Classic Architerure and Trees
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2007, 09:12:35 PM »
Bill,

If you think there is a one size fits all model when it comes to trees or any other feature, I believe you are mistaken.  David can disagree with the quotes I posted, but I am quite sure he would rather hear a variety of perspectives rather than all of one mind since golf courses vary greatly and should be considered on a case by case basis.

Oh, in case you missed it on the VORP thread, here's what Tom Doak had to say about Raynor and Cypress Point:

Personally I think MacKenzie's style works infinitely better at Cypress Point than Raynor's would have worked.[/b]

I have used this very same example on other occasions in discussing naturalism versus the MacRayBanks style and have been dismissed as a Flynnophile.  I doubt the same will be said about Tom.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2007, 09:28:59 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Mark_Fine

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Re:Classic Architerure and Trees
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2007, 09:40:29 AM »
We all have to remember that Flynn never visited the British Isles and he never saw the great links designs.  For better or for worse, I have always believed that this impacted his views on trees.  I should note here that Raynor didn't make that pilgrimage either.  

David,
Good luck in your meeting.  Maybe this short story will help your cause.  I was presenting the final Master Plan to a club's board of directors as well as the grounds committee and a dozen or so other key individuals.  Half way through the presentation, a past President of the Club interrupted me and said in a very strong tone, "Mark why are you recommending we take down all these trees?  They are good trees, they are healthy trees, they were planted with a purpose.  Why do they need to be removed?"  The whole room went quiet.  I was about to address the question when a past grounds chairman stopped me and said, "Mark, I'll handle this question."  He looked over at the board member and said, "Rich, I planted those trees back in the 60's and 70's.  I didn't have a damn clue what I was doing.  We got a really good deal on Spruce trees and we just planted them in all the open spaces we could find!"  

Needless to say, after that response, I didn't have much more trouble with that past President about our tree management recommendations  ;D

Your course will benefit from your program.  Hope your meeting goes well!

By the way, there are quotes in our book (if you have a copy) from Macdonald about trees that would be helpful.  
Mark

« Last Edit: December 16, 2007, 05:13:30 PM by Mark_Fine »

Kyle Harris

Re:Classic Architerure and Trees
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2007, 10:41:05 AM »
The use of trees on the 11th at Huntingdon Valley is one of the most clever and inspiring uses of trees I've seen. The variables and angles offered by 4 stately sycamores in the vicinity of the green are among some of the finer challenges with which I've been presented on a golf course.

Phil_the_Author

Re:Classic Architerure and Trees
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2007, 11:24:39 AM »
David,

Great care must be given when dependence on individual "quotes" from architects, past or present, become an important and potentially deciding factor on an issue facing a club's long-term state. Especially is this so where tree removal, and plantings by the way, are the subject.

For example, In an article in the May 1932 issue of Golf Illustrated titled "Trees on the Course," Tilly wrote, "I find one of the greatest joys of my profession in working among the trees, for I cannot conceive an inland course without them. I like many."

If during your presentation you seem dependent upon what was said to make your point, how can your position but fail if someone stands and shares this Tilly quote?

Just as Wayne said about Flynn, I, too, echo about Tilly. He didn't have a philosophy of trees on a golf course that was all-encompassing; rather, he approached each course, and onm some occasions, individual holes within a course, separately.

The first questions you should be asking is, 'What was the design intent of the architect as to shot angles and course playability?'

Shot angles has become almost a mantra among those who espouse wholesale tree removals, citing the inability of players to advance a shot because their ball came to rest either behind or under a tree. They claim that an 'option' to advance the ball or go for the green is taken away by the mere existence of the offending monstrosity. He is quite wrong in this.

Shot Angles are what the architect built into the design to encourage and punish what he conceived as the proper route and way to play a hole.

For example, a well-placed fairway bunker can both reward and punish a shot with the deciding factor simply being the ball rolling a few feet more forward or sideways than another. Do we say that the bunker has removed shot angles by doing so? No, rather we declare this as strategy and play result based upon choices of shots offered previously.

Really, is it any different with trees used properly as part of a design? For example, Tilly also wrote, "It is likely that the building of inladn courses through trees has developed the holes of dog-leg character as nothing else could have done."

No, tress, even large amounts of them, are an important design aspect to many of the golf courses in America and properly so.

This does not mean that they should not be removed where they improperly impact on a hole's playability or health of its turf. To the contrary, "But often we find a large copse or a thick forest which must be penetrated. Those who grieve because of this necessity fully do not realize that opening up the fairway will not be a program of indiscriminate destruction but rather a painstaking effort to cut through in such a manner as to bring to view the best trees which long have been hidden away among unlovely companions."

Tilly wrote that a year earlier in Golf Illustrated in another article also titled "Trees on the Golf Course."

My suggestion, concentrate on what the Raynor had in ind when he designed your course back in the 1920's and carefully examine his plans. Do they show trees at all? If not then maybe that part of the design wasn't included. If they do, especially if they show large stands in areas where holes are routed but would not be part of any play, then it is most likely that these are plans which he was making a definitive statement on as per tree locations.

Concentrate on the health of the turf first for waht golf course ever is considered of any real beauty if the grass is hideous or diseased?

By the way, you might mention that over 9,00 trees were taken down on Bethpage Black prior to the 2002 Open. Most people barely noticed. Last year nearly 300 more were removed and many people did and complained. Go figure...

wsmorrison

Re:Classic Architerure and Trees
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2007, 11:51:40 AM »
Kelly,

Thank you for the kind comments.  The quotes and text I posted above were excerpted from the Flynn book.  I hope it is out someday soon.  We may have discovered a new approach to publishing it which will dovetail nicely with the golf architecture archive and research center initiative of the USGA.

"Your course will benefit from your program.  Hope your meeting goes well!"

Mark,

I suppose you have knowledge of the 2008 Tree Improvement Plan to know that it will benefit from the program.  

I hope, like Kelly and Phil, that we are not going down a path of like mindedness when it comes to trees.  The typical model of such processes acts much like a pendulum.  In the case of trees on a golf course, it swings far in the direction of planting trees and then far in the opposite direction.  There should not be a one size fits all mentality.  

Some clubs were designed with trees in mind and some clubs had trees planted by their architects for reasons that include strategy and beauty.  To deny this and denude a golf course because it is a popular trend or because Oakmont or another golf course in the area that did not have trees in the design did so is rather short-sighted.

A capable architect should be involved in all facets of developing and implementing golf course master plans including tree management programs.  If Fox Chapel hired a capable man or woman, I think the chances of having the right plan for that golf course will be realized.

Mark_Fine

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Re:Classic Architerure and Trees
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2007, 12:00:33 PM »
Kelly,
You make some good points about trees.  There is a place for them on most golf courses.  But as you know, they are always the most difficult (and emotional) feature to deal with.  I have zillions of photos of trees, good and bad.  As David said in his initial post, it is very much about constant education.  

Lots of different views exist on this topic.

Philip,
Good point about quotes as well as design intent, etc.  

I've always put Flynn high on the scale of architects who loved trees but even Flynn knew that they had limited roles in golf course design.  Also, remember his first love was grass and grass doesn't grow too well in lots of shade  ;)
Mark

Mark_Fine

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Re:Classic Architerure and Trees
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2007, 12:11:01 PM »
Wayne,
Good points!  I do have some knowledge of what is planned at Fox Chapel and from what I know, it should be good for the golf course.  I played Fox Chapel with Dave this past June and listened to his presentation at dinner afterward.  He is trying to do the right thing for the club.  I also spoke out there a year or so ago and trees were a big topic of discussion.

Again, trees are a very emotional subject and the approach one takes varies from club to club.  I will say this, there is not one club out there that I have ever seen that would not benefit in some way from a tree management program.  This does not mean deforestation.  This means a careful assessment of the tree stock, its evolution, design intent, etc etc.  

Bill Brightly

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Re:Classic Architerure and Trees
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2007, 01:26:31 PM »
Sure, Wayne. I think thats exactly the kind of quotes David was looking for...

I am not familiar with Fox Chapel's plans, but I'll go out on a limb and guess that they want to take down a bunch of white pines, spruces and some other trees, elevate a bunch more, and highlight true specimen trees.

This is something that 90% of the courses I've played in the Northeast US need to do immediately. (I played Aronomink this year and think they do a GREAT job managing their trees, a GREAT job elevating beautiful hardwoods!)   And in almost every case, there will be a significant percentage of the members who are tree huggers and just do not get it. It takes time to overcome "the Augusta National effect" where members want "separation" between holes. Many clubs planted thousands of white pines and spruces in the 60's (rememeber Earth Day???) and these trees are now 40 feet tall, harming turfgrass, ruining the development of nicer hardwoods, and generally being nuisances on golf courses. And it's not cheap to get rid of them.

wsmorrison

Re:Classic Architerure and Trees
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2007, 01:54:45 PM »
Bill,

Please don't underestimate my ability to understand the dynamics in play regarding tree improvement plans and other master plan activities.  I know that most courses have allowed trees to encroach and/or have planted trees that restrict design strategies.  I am not a tree hugger.  My motives are for restoring playing angles and corridor widths.  Nowhere have I advocated anything other than that.  I do advocate that tree management plans are not simple in nature and there is no one-size fits all argument.  Plans must be determined on a case by case basis.  Do you deny any of this?

I don't care what kind of quotes David was looking for.  What value is there in providing only quotes that serve his needs?  Should we ignore other perspectives?  Or do you by some blessed gift know what is required and that comments of some classic era architects on the value of trees in American golf should be ignored?  Give me a break.  If he wanted to surround himself with sycophants, David would have asked for that.  He is well known to be a deep thinker on these matters and looks for the broad perspective as well.  I don't think he would shy away from different points of view.  He is bound to be met with different points of view in the approval and implementation stages of his program.  So I believe it vital to understand all perspectives in order to make informed decisions.  Even if some of the opinions may differ from your generalizations or even the goals David may have.

Bill Brightly

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Re:Classic Architerure and Trees
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2007, 02:04:55 PM »
Bill,

  Do you deny any of this?



Nope, not a word. But have you been in a "town hall" meeting to discuss trees lately???


wsmorrison

Re:Classic Architerure and Trees
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2007, 02:36:12 PM »
No.  I avoid them working behind the scenes and with one on ones.  Tom Paul has a great story about the restoration and master plan for Gulph Mills.  If he sees this, I'm sure he'll repeat it.  Similar in nature to Mark's version.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2007, 02:36:41 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Bill Brightly

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Re:Classic Architerure and Trees
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2007, 02:52:19 PM »
Exactly! So I envision poor David up in front of his membership, explaining why they want to take out a bunch of junk trees, taking flak from the tree huggers...and then YOU stand up in the back of the room with your Flynn quotes...and stuff  like "I think that I have never seen anything as lovely as a tree" etc...while the tree huggers stand up and applaud ;D ;D

ChipOat

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Re:Classic Architerure and Trees
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2007, 03:02:21 PM »
David:

Please go back and consult the zillions of prior threads on here about trees and pay special attention to my heated comments re: Stupid Trees aka "bunkers in the sky" (send me a private message if you want to know more detail about the definition of Stupid Tree).

If there are any Stupid Trees left at Fox chapel after all the work is done, you will do golf a great service by secretly arranging to have them cut down in the middle of the night.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2007, 03:03:26 PM by chipoat »

Bill Brightly

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Re:Classic Architerure and Trees
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2007, 03:05:36 PM »
David:

you will do golf a great service by secretly arranging to have them cut down in the middle of the night.

Chip,

Isn't that how all the fun started at Oakmont ;D

Lloyd_Cole

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Re:Classic Architerure and Trees
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2007, 03:54:29 PM »
We all have to remember that Flynn "never" visited the British Isles and "never" saw the great links designs.

Mark, I'm sorry I don't understand these "never"s. Did he go or didn't he?

Mark_Fine

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Re:Classic Architerure and Trees
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2007, 05:12:47 PM »
LLoyd,
Flynn did not visit the British Isles.  He did not see or play any of the great links courses where the game originated.  
Mark

wsmorrison

Re:Classic Architerure and Trees
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2007, 05:24:20 PM »
I've always put Flynn high on the scale of architects who loved trees but even Flynn knew that they had limited roles in golf course design.  Also, remember his first love was grass and grass doesn't grow too well in lots of shade

Mark Fine,

Who is saying there is a broad role for trees to play on a golf course?  

Flynn's first love was grass?  I take it you mean as it relates to golf courses.  How is a love of grass and trees (in fact he loved everything to do with nature and plants of all kinds) mutually exclusive on a golf course if used properly?  Over the years, golf clubs implemented improper tree and planting practices that were detrimental to design intent and the health of turf.  We all know this.  So, I don't understand what are you trying to say.

We all have to remember that Flynn "never" visited the British Isles and "never" saw the great links designs.

Just what is the implication of this fact, Mark?  He didn't see the golf courses of the British Isles.  So what?  Are you saying because of this he doesn't have a sense of golf without trees or with a limited presence of trees?  

He was an intimate friend of a number of Philadelphians that spent a lot of time overseas, many of them significant architects of the day.  I think he would have been capable of understanding the design practices on treeless sites without having been there.  Is it that complicated a subject?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2007, 05:27:36 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Phil_the_Author

Re:Classic Architerure and Trees
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2007, 05:41:20 PM »
Wayne,

"We all have to remember that Flynn "never" visited the British Isles and "never" saw the great links designs..."

That explains all those pine trees and the monumental tree-clearing program of 1964 that the locals refer to as the "Day God Struck Back" at Shinnecock...
« Last Edit: December 16, 2007, 05:46:15 PM by Philip Young »

Mark_Fine

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Re:Classic Architerure and Trees
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2007, 06:23:09 PM »
Wayne,
I was more just stating some interesting facts.  I really don't want to hijack this thread and turn it into another Flynn discussion.  

David,
I hope your meeting is a productive one.  Good luck.
Mark

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