[Mike_Cirba]

Bruce Springsteen's newest album, "Magic", is indeed aptly named.

Geoffrey...get a copy and crank it in the car.   I guarantee if you don't like it I'll...I'll   give you two strokes a side when we get together next year.  

I can't think of a single hole at Merion East that I don't look forward to playing.  

[Mike Sweeney]

Great: 3, 4, 8, 9, 11, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18

All world: 5

[mike_malone]

3  5  16  18 and 11 if they widen the fairway. But, I do enjoy 14 very much.

[Mike_Cirba]

Great: 3, 4, 8, 9, 11, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18

All world: 5

Mike,

If 11, 17, and 18 aren't all-world, I'm on the wrong planet.  

I have yet to hit the approach shot on 11 without heart palpitations, and I've yet to play the 18th hole without feeling I've taken 3 doses of ecstasy.    

[Mark_Fine]

Great is one of those words that has a different definition for everyone.  I remember Jim Finegan once telling me that the new course at The K Club was great.  I think the word fabulous was also used.  If anyone has played The K Club, they might start to wonder about the definition of great as well  

[Matt_Ward]

Any person who believes the totality of Pebble Beach is equal or greater than the totality of Merion has been smoking some high quality Native-American weed.

PB has its great moments -- but it also has plenty of lack luster holes that add to the time when you do in fact get to the oceanside holes.

What always fascinates me about Merion is how on such a tiny amount of property you get the totality of what one sees today. That is really amazing.

Let me also add that Pebble is indeed a special place but it has forever been the poster child for excess media coverage and exposure. I love the small greens there and when the place is in shape -- a 50/50 proposition in the different times I have played there -- it truly is an awesome place.

Let me say this if left with ten rounds -- I'd say Merion gets seven plays to three for Pebble.

[ChipOat]

What a great coincidence - this thread at the top of one my all-too infrequent visists to The Treehouse, anymore.

Now, nobody loves the East Course more than I - that's a flat out guarantee.  Also, given that I've played every hole from every conceivable place that's not OB, I might even hold my own with Ran, T Doak and even Pat Mucci or The Emperor in terms of being able to appreciate the wonders of the design.

Having staked my claim to opine credibly on the subject, I have 4 thoughts:

1) Even Pine Valley, which I think is the "best" in the world (whatever that means) doesn't have 18 "great" holes, IMO.  In fact, as fine as they are, I think a couple of them wouldn't get much mention in the world of golf if they weren't at PV and/or didn't look like PV (guess why?) instead of your basic parkland course in some other location.  In case you're wondering, my admiration for PV as #1 is that all 18 holes really are pretty damn good (again, whatever that means to me).

2) #8 has been mentioned a couple of times on this thread as one of Merion's great holes.  While bad/fair/good/great is a matter of opinion based on personal criteria, I wouldn't include it as one of the best holes on the course and I've honestly never heard it mentioned in that context ever before.  It's not a BAD hole, but great??  Could you champions for that recognition please flesh it out a little more?  Now, it happens that I favor uber-penal approaches to short par 4's a la #8 at PV so my point of view re: "great" short 4's is pretty narrow.  But I'll listen to anything - especially about Merion.

3) In scanning the posts (admittedly quickly), I didn't see a single syllable re: bunkers.  Could it possibly be true that it really isn't a hot button around here, anymore?  Or has the subject just been worn out beyond all recognition and there's just no adrenalin left for it - even from The Emperor.

4) With all due respect to JES II, I have never EVER heard #16 mentioned as least favorite.  That's not a criticism- just an observation.  I happen to think the hole is a touch overrated sometimes - but only a touch.

[Bill_McBride]

I've never played golf in Philadelphia so never at Merion, but I am really looking forward to the 2009 Walker Cup there.  It will be great to see those immensely talented US and GB&I kids play Merion.  Lots who have not had a chance to play there will be able to watch high level play under intensely competitive conditions.

Ganton, Chicago Golf Club, Royal County Down, Merion.....the USGA and the R&A have really gotten it right for the Walker Cup schedule over the years.  Don't you wish the Ryder Cup could do the same on both continents?

[Mike Sweeney]

Chip,

I think technology has made 8 into a great hole. While few if any will try it, the current length brings driver into the thought process, creating confusion. I like holes that make you think on the tee. For the club golfer, it require two precise shots. Almost impossible to hold that green from the rough, and a million different recoveries from that green site.

Mike C,

I agree with everything that you said about #11, BUT it is a layup shot off the tee where you just want to find a now too narrow fairway. All World needs two pure shots on a par 4.

17, I probably agree as I can't think of a better/tougher long par 4.

18, I have a little Mucci love for 18 at National, so not sure I can vote for 18 Merion in the ALL World category!  

[wsmorrison]

The view of the red basket over the left fairway bunker on the 8th draws the eye and tempts the mind.  Then the caddy tells the uninitiated golfer that he/she should aim over the left edge of the RIGHT fairway bunker towards the OB.  I love the inevitable look on the player's face as the seeming absurdity of that notion takes hold and uncertainty starts to settle in as the mind and body conflict.

When nature allows and the green is firm and fast, the 8th is a hard green to hold.  The original 8th green was by the left 9th tee and fell dramatically away from front to back.  The current green (circa 1915) looks like it is tilted severely back to front.  Because of our perception, the overall downslope only makes it seem that way.  To see high pitch shots land and roll off the back out of the rough or from too close to the green without spin is a sight most rookies have a hard time believing.  Better to lay back and have a full shot to a small green over a cavernous fronting bunker.  With mounds and bunkers on the left and a fall-off to the right, it is one of the great short approaches in golf.

Is the hole great?  I think so.

[Michael Blake]

All World needs two pure shots on a par 4.

So you think #10 at Riviera doesn't qualify?

[Willie_Dow]

Joe Juliano had a great interview with Tiger Woods in the Inquirer today and he asked Tiger about the implements and balls.

Tiger was respondent to say he would like to play again with the persimmon and the bulata.  Does this say something?

The 16th has lost itself with the removal of trees around the quarry.  The big ones go up the laidies aid, and a great view of the green.  A big loss to a great hole !

[JESII]

JES II,

Is this important since the sum is greater than the parts?

How do you account for the incredible three act play that is Merion - by breaking out the holes you remove what makes the course unique – in my mind anyway. The first six are tough and you play with caution, the middle seven are shorter with an opportunity where you try to score, and the final five are about a tough a stretch as there is in golf where you try survive.

I love certain holes much more than others - but Merion is one of a few courses where it is an injustice to break it apart.

Thanks Ian...I started the thread as a reply to the thread that said Merion was overrated and that Ballyneal would have financial trouble...it got me thinking if someone were to start a conversation by saying Merion had 18 great holes, could I argue with him...

So I started it.

I do not disagree with your routing assesment except for the thought that the middle run gives you an opportunity to score...for me it has proven to be an opportunity to get beat up by the little guy in between beatings by the two big guys.

But...if I were to tell you I thought #16 was a great hole...would you argue? I wouldn't with you but, as you'll notice, it is also the hole I put up as possible my least favorite.

I'll respect your view of the course in its complete form, but yes, I do think each hole can be discussed on its own if desired...because, like Mike Cirba said..."I can't think of a single hole at Merion East that I don't look forward to playing"[/i]

[JESII]

Great is one of those words that has a different definition for everyone.  I remember Jim Finegan once telling me that the new course at The K Club was great.  I think the word fabulous was also used.  If anyone has played The K Club, they might start to wonder about the definition of great as well  

Thanks Mark...that was helpful...

[JESII]

Chipoat,

Don't you think my positions compared to your points #2 and #4 support my opening remark..."I don't think I could argue with someone that said there were 18 great holes at Merion..."?

I am not suggesting that #16 is bad in the least...I would not argue against someone that lists it as their favorite on the course...



Wayne,

Favorite par 3 - it might be #13...believe it or not, I think I hit that green less than half the time...that front lip is genius.

Favorite par 4 - maybe #5 - I know I listed 8 and 14 in my first post but that was three or four days ago...

Favorite par 5 - #2 - I actually think this is a very good to great par 5.

The fact that they were able to engineer in a moving fairway on #4 is really incredible...who would think a fairway could react to a balls flight and shift itself just enough to the right or left while the ball is in the air so that noone on the planet can figure out where it will be when the ball  lands...even a 28 year caddy.

[Peter Pallotta]

JES - a little sidetrack if you don't mind, and probably something you've answered before.

What course do you enjoy playing more, Merion or Huntingdon Valley? And why - i.e. more great holes or a better collection and routing of holes?

Thanks
Peter

 

[JESII]

Peter,

Huntingdon Valley...but just because it is home. I think Merion is clearly a better golf course.

One very important aspect for me, Peter, is playing condition...from somewhat limited experience (15 - 20 tournament rounds), Merion does not want their superintendent to let the course get very brown...Huntingdon Valley strongly encourages it.

[Mike Sweeney]

All World needs two pure shots on a par 4.

So you think #10 at Riviera doesn't qualify?

I think holes such as Riviera 10 and Oakmont 17 are in a unique category of "drivable par 4", and I would list Oakmont 17 ahead of it having played neither.

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, JES

I would've guessed that was your answer, but still I think the maintenance angle you note is interesting/important. I asked the question because I think that, for me at least, it's not so easy to separate out a great hole from its relationship with the rest of the holes, i.e. as a collection, and as one part of the overall routing/flow of holes.

I'm thinking of a Par 3 I sometimes play. It's just a pitching wedge, to a raised green. On the one hand, taken all by itself I'm not sure it's a very good hole; it almost seems jammed into the available space, and while the green is undulating there's plenty of room.  But on the other, it comes about two-thirds into the round, and unless you've screwed up along the way, it's the first pitching wedge to a raised green that you'll have played...and I've never seen anyone (better or worse players) play the hole well, or at least birdie what looks to be the only birdie opportunity in a stretch of 3 or 4 holes. In other words, it plays much better than it looks.    

So I guess what I'm asking is, if you factor in the maintenance practices at HV, and give more weight to how individual holes fit into and play into the overall flow/routing, does HV get closer to Merion in overall quality?  Or does Merion's greater number of individually great holes trump everything else?

Thanks
Peter

[JESII]

Peter,

I don't think many people place as high a value as I do on the ball bouncing around alot...even on here...

So, for me individually, and in an overall perspective...I would probably prefer to play HVCC at least as often as Merion if I had full reign but I do not expect many others to say the same thing...

[wsmorrison]

Jim,

I have the highest regard for Huntingdon Valley as a club and a golf course.  The manner in which the club reversed the overwatering trend at the course and led the return to playability above all else in our district is extraordinary as are the efforts of Scott Anderson to achieve the goals.  Huntingdon Valley shows that brown can be acceptable when the playability is so dramatically improved and the potential of the architecture achieved through the Ideal Maintenance Meld.  Seeing the ball bounce and roll with the topography is a splendid sight and Huntingdon Valley has gravity golf all over the place, like few other courses.  The way the greens are able to maintain a challenge to all classes of golfers when nature allows them to be firm and fast is a joy to witness and even better to play.

Merion,  Philadelphia Country Club, Manufacturers and Aronimink among others that see the light all have different but effective approaches to the ideal playability of their golf courses.  Though Huntingdon Valley clearly goes its own way and with great success and very little water.  

I don't know all the differences, but Merion does a lot of hand watering that is just enough to keep the grass a light sheen of green rather than brown yet still achieves the bounce and roll and green firmness that the architecture was designed for.  Few clubs have the resources to be able to do what Merion does.  While the process and budget of the two clubs vary, they still try to achieve the same playability.

[JESII]

Wayne,

I think the notion of light syringing to keep a shade of green is faulty until the weak grass (the grass that will die first) has been eliminated...is there any way other than starvation to let the weak grass die? Starvation equals brown, correct? I don't think the Merion membership is on board with a brown golf course...and I am not suggesting they should be...

[D_Malley]

i think the fact that merion has soo many great holes helps it to over come some of the negative aspects when you look at the course as a whole.  

to expand on the negative aspects, i am referring to things you see at merion that would probably be looked at as negatives if they were done on a  course that was built today.

[Chip Gaskins]

you could flip that question around ad say, how many not good holes is there at Merion

i will start this by saying i think there are many good holes at merion, a few world class holes, and several not so good.

i personally (in my opinion) think #3, #4, and #11 are not so good.  #4 and #11 require you to hit a 200+ yard blind shot to a sliver of fairway.  i just don't think that is a good design tactic.  i don't mind blind shots, i just don't like them to such narrow landing areas bordered by penal rough.  many of the blind shots i have played in the UK have landing areas that are blind but only have one or two small pot bunkers to navigate or are much wider landing areas.  and for the record i missed both #4 and #11 fairways and did make par.  so its not sour grapes.

i personally (in my opinion) think #6, #10, #14, #15, and #18 are world class holes.  #10 gives you so many ways to play it with risk and reward.  #14 has the best green on the course (in my opinion) and #15 just fits the land and my eye really well.  i am sure #18 from the US Open tee is one of the best anywhere in the world.

we played the next to the back tees and i hit some version of a wedge in on #1, #2, #4, #7, #8, #10, #12, and #13.  that is a lot of short irons for a top 15 golf course.

#12 green will have to be flatten if they are going to have the greens roll at US Open speeds.

all in all, i just believe (in my opinion) a top 15 golf course needs to have more world class holes.  royal county down (all), pine valley (all), national golf links (minus one hole), portrush (minus two holes), augusta (minus one hole), etc

AGAIN, this is just my opinion and i am not trying to say merion is a bad track,

remeber not everyone thinks French Laundry is as good of a dinning experience as the reviews, nor does everyone think 67’ Chateau Lafite Rothschild is the best wine they have ever had.  none of this is fact, only opinion.

[Kyle Harris]

Chip,

Don't confuse maintenance practices like fairway corridor width with architecture. That's like calling a Frank Lloyd Wright building bad because the walls are painted a bad color.

Two of the holes you mentioned hitting wedge into are Par 5s, so I think it's reasonable to eliminate them from your thinking - though I'm confused as to how you managed to miss the fairway on 4 with both shots, still have a wedge into the green and still make par... that's one helluva Seve right there.

Furthermore, 13 is a designed as a short par 3 - and a good number of world class golf courses have wedge shot par 3s, so your list of 8 holes with wedge approaches can be shortened to 5 short par 4s. I believe that Merion's long par 4s, especially the 5th and the closing stretch serve as a wonderful balance to the shorter par 4s like 7 and 8.

While it certainly has some credibility, your analysis seems to focus on individual shot requirements based on your game as opposed to a more macro view of the golf course based on the flow and continuity of the routing. I think with repeated plays of Merion you'll come to view both the 4th and 11th as world class holes in their own right.

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