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JESII

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How many great holes are there at Merion?
« on: December 15, 2007, 10:32:45 AM »
I couldn't argue with someone that thought there were 18...my least favorite would probably be #16 but I cannot articulate why at the moment...

Have to think a bit more about which is my favorite...#'s 8 and 14 are in the running...

wsmorrison

Re:How many great holes are there at Merion?
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2007, 11:05:21 AM »
It is interesting that of the two holes you are considering, 8 is short and 14 is long.

What if you broke it down by par 3s, par 4s and par 5s?  At least I have a 50/50 chance of guessing your favorite par 5  ;)

Ian Andrew

Re:How many great holes are there at Merion?
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2007, 11:17:35 AM »
JES II,

Is this important since the sum is greater than the parts?

How do you account for the incredible three act play that is Merion - by breaking out the holes you remove what makes the course unique – in my mind anyway. The first six are tough and you play with caution, the middle seven are shorter with an opportunity where you try to score, and the final five are about a tough a stretch as there is in golf where you try survive.

I love certain holes much more than others - but Merion is one of a few courses where it is an injustice to break it apart.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2007, 11:20:00 AM by Ian Andrew »

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many great holes are there at Merion?
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2007, 11:29:20 AM »
you could flip that question around ad say, how many not good holes is there at Merion

wsmorrison

Re:How many great holes are there at Merion?
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2007, 11:35:11 AM »
Well said, Ian.  While hard to explain why (Joshua Crane could never do it) the whole is greater than the sum of its holes.  Is Merion East an excellent example of many courses that are as you describe or is it somewhat unique?  In any case, there still are quite a lot of excellent holes at Merion East and they are all perfectly arranged.

Ian, what would you make of the experience found in the original routing?

1,2,6,7,4,5,3,8-18

Ian Andrew

Re:How many great holes are there at Merion?
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2007, 11:50:10 AM »
Wayne,

Seven offers a bit of a break in the first act, but so do 2 and 4 being par fives. You still have the run of 8 to 13 which is shorter and full of opportunity. The finish is...well... still the finish and that matters most.

I bet the rhythm would be completely the same.

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many great holes are there at Merion?
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2007, 11:50:44 AM »
Not threadjacking, but Kingston Heath, if dismantled and assessed hole by hole has few standouts, only 3 or 4, but as a golf course it works wonderfully, and that is all it should need to do.

archie_struthers

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Re:How many great holes are there at Merion?
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2007, 12:31:47 PM »
 ;D :D 8)

Arguably all  of the holes at Merion are great...although they might not be considered heroic....certainly no question at all about #'s 5, 11, 14-18 as individual holes that would qualify on their own merits...the sum of the parts analogy certainly fits here.


Jim... #14 is my favorite/ and for me the best hole at Merion.

The angle of attack on the tee shot and the green falling away visually does it for me!

Lot's of interesting things happen here,,,

rjs
« Last Edit: December 15, 2007, 12:40:30 PM by archie_struthers »

Geoffrey Childs

Re:How many great holes are there at Merion?
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2007, 12:43:26 PM »
I love certain holes much more than others - but Merion is one of a few courses where it is an injustice to break it apart.


I really totally agree with this statement. I can not think of a single shot on any hole at Merion that is not both fair and fraught with potential disaster be it a tee shot or a 3 foot putt. It has variety, flow, great short game requirements and great greens.  

I've agreed with Ran for a long time when he said that great golf courses require great golf holes.  There is no such thing IMHO of a course that has good holes that is great becasue it is reported to be "greater tehn the sum of its parts/holes".  That's BS.  Merion has a ton of great holes and as I said potentially every single shot is great. Merion to me is the greatest non-sand based golf course I have seen anywhere.  I have not seen Oakmont yet and I don't think Crystal Downs is quite its equal.

Adam Clayman

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Re:How many great holes are there at Merion?
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2007, 12:54:15 PM »
Dr.,
 If that were BS, places like Pebb;e Beach and Merion wouldn't register on the radar.
 There is not one hole at merion as great as the 8th at Pebble Beach.

One could almost argue there are no great holes at Merion,(I am not) just a well connected routing of very good that together comprise greatness. The same could be said for many of the world's best.

What great course has 18 great holes?

When Tom Fazio was negotiating with Mr. Wynn, he made the point that if he did design such a course, he (and the golfer) would be burnt out by the fourth hole.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2007, 01:01:56 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Geoffrey Childs

Re:How many great holes are there at Merion?
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2007, 01:03:59 PM »
Dr.,
 If that were BS, places like Pebb;e Beach and Merion wouldn't register on the radar.
 There is not one hole at merion as great as the 8th at Pebble Beach.

One could almost argue there are no great holes at Merion, just a well connected routing of very good that together comprise greatness. The same could be said for many of the world's best.

What great course has 18 great holes?

When Tom Fazio was negotiating with Mr. Wynn, he made the point that if he did design such a course, he (and the golfer) would be burnt out by the fourth hole.

Adam - I never said it had to have 18 great holes nor did Ran.  I said it had to have great golf holes.  I think here are many at Merion as Wayne has pointed out.  Pebble also has great world class holes and that is why it is so highly regarded.  It is just those places you mention such as Shadow Creek whcih claim greatness but in my opinion fall short because in part none of their holes are great.

So, I think we misunderstand one anothers positions but I stand by mine.

wsmorrison

Re:How many great holes are there at Merion?
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2007, 01:29:23 PM »
Jim Finegan believes that Philadelphia Country Club (a course he's played in excess of 10,000 times!!) is great but not because it has a collection of great holes, because it is a marvelous collection of very solid holes that offer variety, shot testing, beauty and originality.  The routing progression puts these holes into a sequence that is one important key to its enjoyment.  I cannot think of a better sequence of holes and presentation of enjoyable difficulty than Merion.  Flynn was quite accomplished at providing these structural features in his designs.

Geoffrey Childs

Re:How many great holes are there at Merion?
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2007, 01:34:56 PM »
Jim Finegan believes that Philadelphia Country Club (a course he's played in excess of 10,000 times!!) is great but not because it has a collection of great holes, because it is a marvelous collection of very solid holes that offer variety, shot testing, beauty and originality.  The routing progression puts these holes into a sequence that is one important key to its enjoyment.  I cannot think of a better sequence of holes and presentation of enjoyable difficulty than Merion.  Flynn was quite accomplished at providing these structural features in his designs.

Wayne - I would then disagree with Jim Finegan.  I have played Phil. CC and I agree with Jim's assessment of the course but not his conclusion that it is great.  It's an extremely good course and one that I would be happy to play 10,000 times but I stand by my argument that it can't be great without great golf holes.

Wayne - can that gutty baseball player that everyone wants on his team because he fits in, plays a vital role and gives 100% every time out make it into the Hall of Fame?  
« Last Edit: December 15, 2007, 01:36:33 PM by GJChilds »

wsmorrison

Re:How many great holes are there at Merion?
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2007, 01:53:44 PM »
I am not sure if I agree with Jim or not.  I have to consider it further.  You know what an admirer I am of Jim, so I'll give him his due for now.

"Wayne - can that gutty baseball player that everyone wants on his team because he fits in, plays a vital role and gives 100% every time out make it into the Hall of Fame?"

If he didn't take steroids, HGH or other illegal performance enhancing drugs and he batted over .300 or had 3000 hits or 500 HRs (that again should be the standard).  Would you consider Kirby Puckett or Tony Gwynn "gutty" ball players?  I do, because of their guts ;)

Sorry of the following off topic rant:

I think the players mentioned in the Mitchell Report should be able to elect to have their case heard by a binding arbitration panel.  If they are found guilty, their pensions should be reduced with the money going to a fund for needy ball players.  These guys would not have played as long or even made the majors if they didn't use the drugs so they should forfeit a portion of their pensions.  If they do not elect to appear before an arbitration panel, let them keep their pensions but lose their good name.

Geoffrey Childs

Re:How many great holes are there at Merion?
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2007, 02:23:30 PM »
I am not sure if I agree with Jim or not.  I have to consider it further.  You know what an admirer I am of Jim, so I'll give him his due for now.

"Wayne - can that gutty baseball player that everyone wants on his team because he fits in, plays a vital role and gives 100% every time out make it into the Hall of Fame?"

If he didn't take steroids, HGH or other illegal performance enhancing drugs and he batted over .300 or had 3000 hits or 500 HRs (that again should be the standard).  Would you consider Kirby Puckett or Tony Gwynn "gutty" ball players?  I do, because of their guts ;)

Sorry of the following off topic rant:

I think the players mentioned in the Mitchell Report should be able to elect to have their case heard by a binding arbitration panel.  If they are found guilty, their pensions should be reduced with the money going to a fund for needy ball players.  These guys would not have played as long or even made the majors if they didn't use the drugs so they should forfeit a portion of their pensions.  If they do not elect to appear before an arbitration panel, let them keep their pensions but lose their good name.

Wayne

agreed on all counts about baseball anyway.  Kirby and Tony were not excellent "role players". They were stars and rightfully so.  If you have a non-juiced career .300 BA, 500 HR or 3000 hits you are GREAT.

If a golf course has great holes it is a candidate for being a star or hall of fame status.  Without the great holes IMHO it can't qualify.  
« Last Edit: December 15, 2007, 02:24:30 PM by GJChilds »

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many great holes are there at Merion?
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2007, 02:29:05 PM »
Note - In was thinking / typing this when Geoffrey and Wayne were discussing Finnegan.

Dr Childs

I hate to alwasys be harking back to my field of (arguable) expertise but can I use an analogy?

I have had trouble with my various record companies over the last 20 years when it comes to choosing the lead cuts, the songs to be singles, or the ones that go to radio. Part of the problem is that I don't put filler on my records.

I'm not alone, neither does Bruce Sprigsteen. He works on a project until all of the songs are up to scratch, and sit together to make an album (read routing). Consequently there are are less, or often no 'stand out' tracks. Are his albums not great? Some would say they are not, some would argue that they are. 'Darkness on the Edge of Town' comes to mind. It was voted by rock critics 'album of the year' and yet it had no significant 'hits'. Springsteen went years without the big hit that was expected of him and only got it when he finally gave in to the record company and gave them something that folk could dance to. It's a funny story because the lyric tells show he felt about it 'This gun's for hire, even if we're just dancing in the dark...'

Was the song any better or worse than songs from 'Darkness'? Worse probably, but it succeeded because the company were unanimous in their support for it as the 'signature' track from 'Born in the USA'. This album went on to sell 5 or maybe 10 times as many as 'Darkness'. Is it a better album? I'd say no.

Now look at a band like Bon Jovi from the 1980's. The albums are unashamedly vehicles for 'signature' songs, there will be 3 or 4 such songs on each record. They will stand out, because the rest is filler. The record company will have no problem with their strategy for promotion and the band are not really in the same business as Bruce... which is fine. I'm sure you don't spend a lot of time playing Gary Player courses in Myrtle Beach. But I'm guessing they do quite well for themselves.

Now a course like Kingston Heath is an interesting case. It has great holes, plenty of them and arguably not a single weak one (the members and Mike Clayton disagree - there is one hole they believe he should 'toughen up', he thinks it is fine) but few 'stand out'. Few also make the lsit of 'top Sand Belt holes' because just down the street you have RMW, and courses like Yarra Yarra, which is much weaker, overall than KH, do have stand out holes... Is Yarra Yarra a great course? Absolutely not.

How the architect chooses to aim for greatness depends on whether or not he is willing to accept filler. RMW has several let down holes (please don't ask me to name them because I cannot remember the course that well) but the placement of them in the routing is very canny and one comes away from a round with memories only of the grand holes. Pebble is similar, surely many would agree that if it finished with it's first 5 holes, it would not be as effective in inspring awe. Another example would be Royal County Down which looks, for 15 holes, like it is going to be the ultimate course and then finishes comparatively weakly. If those 3 weak holes could be placed between some of the stronger holes, wouldn't it be rated more highly?

Merion has so many great holes, and that is why so few of them draw attention to themselves.

Great courses must have great holes is a truism. Whether or not a course can be great without all world holes, yet not having conspicuously weak holes is an interesting question, I think.

Hemmingway wrote (I think - I'm paraphrasing heresay here as I can't find it in Google) When you think you've finsihed your work, find your best paragraph and take it out. If it no longer holds together, maybe you didn't have a story in the first place.

I'm not coming to a conclusion here myself either, because I like both types of courses. Pebble and Merion, but I do prefer Merion.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2007, 02:30:27 PM by Lloyd_Cole »

Adam Clayman

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Re:How many great holes are there at Merion?
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2007, 02:36:09 PM »
.  It is just those places you mention such as Shadow Creek whcih claim greatness but in my opinion fall short because in part none of their holes are great.

So, I think we misunderstand one anothers positions but I stand by mine.

Dr. I used the TF SW analogy as it relates to the process, not because of the merits of SC.

You can stand by your opinion that evaluations based on wholes being greater than their parts as bullshit. I happen to disagree with you because I view the finished product as an artform.

The more quantitative view would appear to disregard an individuals feelings.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Sean Leary

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Re:How many great holes are there at Merion?
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2007, 02:39:17 PM »
I couldn't argue with someone that thought there were 18...my least favorite would probably be #16 but I cannot articulate why at the moment...

Have to think a bit more about which is my favorite...#'s 8 and 14 are in the running...

JESII,

I have only played it twice, but 8 did not stand out to me above other holes.  Could you explain why you like it so much?

Geoffrey Childs

Re:How many great holes are there at Merion?
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2007, 03:09:33 PM »
Great courses must have great holes is a truism. Whether or not a course can be great without all world holes, yet not having conspicuously weak holes is an interesting question, I think.


Lloyd

Excellent discussion.

From my non-musical expertise I think Born to Run is a great album and I frequently blast it in the car. I don't know the Darkness album so I'm not sure what that says.

Royal County Down is considered by some the best links course in the world.  I doubt that anyone in the know would claim it is not great.  As you said, it has great golf holes. No one said it had to have all 18.  Maybe you could make that claim for Pine Valley but not for Cypress Point.

I just don't buy the argument that you can mark the totality of a course higher then its best golf hole(s).

Adam - I agree that GCA is an art form of sorts and its a very important aspect of the product.  However, lets remember that golf is a sport and the course is a playing field.  I believe that is first and most important. That reminds me to bring up the Jim Engh thread as I'd like to hear his take on his statement that claims he opposite.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2007, 03:26:32 PM by GJChilds »

Mark_F

Re:How many great holes are there at Merion?
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2007, 03:19:14 PM »
I cannot remember where I picked up this quote, so I apologise profusely for using it without reference;

"Great use of undulation has more effect on the quality of a hole than the careful placement of hazards".

Wouldn't this mean that if Merion made full use of the land at its disposal - for it does possess reasonable movement, doesn't it - it would be full of great holes?

To use another musical analogy - is a Greatest Hits album ever as good as the best studio album?  Oasis and Guns' n Roses would be two perfect test cases.  

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many great holes are there at Merion?
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2007, 03:40:02 PM »
I cannot remember where I picked up this quote, so I apologise profusely for using it without reference;

"Great use of undulation has more effect on the quality of a hole than the careful placement of hazards".

Wouldn't this mean that if Merion made full use of the land at its disposal - for it does possess reasonable movement, doesn't it - it would be full of great holes?

To use another musical analogy - is a Greatest Hits album ever as good as the best studio album?  Oasis and Guns' n Roses would be two perfect test cases.  

Mark

Then it's yours now, no worries...

Please take your G'n'R and Oasis argument farther, I don't know eithers' work well enough to comment, well, maybe Oasis' GH would be like one fun, in your face long 4 par after another with no let up, so that they would all eventually feel like the same hole, and there would be little charm, quirk, and absolutely no driveable holes.

Mark_F

Re:How many great holes are there at Merion?
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2007, 04:20:31 PM »
Please take your G'n'R and Oasis argument farther, I don't know eithers' work well enough to comment, well, maybe Oasis' GH would be like one fun, in your face long 4 par after another with no let up, so that they would all eventually feel like the same hole, and there would be little charm, quirk, and absolutely no driveable holes.

Lloyd,

I guess it is something similiar to that.  "Appetite for Destruction" sold over 25 million copies worldwide.  Is it because it contains one great song after another?  

No, it was based on one classic, "Sweet Child o' Mine" (Merion 5?), two excellent tracks,"Welcome to the Jungle" and "Paradise City", (Merion 1 and 11?), with the rest a mixture of songs that make everything gell together because they have different rhythms, pacing, lyrics, slight changes in style, bits that you don't really think much of until you have played them a few times.

Sean Arble had this fantastic quote on another thread;

...the courses which particularly intrigue are the ones where shots slip away and I am left wondering why.  If dropping shots is obviously not because of the standard reasons like loads of hazards, trees, rough etc I will definitely tend to think more highly of that course.    

The great songs on an album are the bunkers and other great hazards you easily remember. But, you don't play that album at home for those songs, because you hear them all the time on the radio at work anyway.

What keeps you playing the album are the other songs that contain more than you first thought.  They may not have the great riffs, but there will be something great in them.

KH is still Use Your Illusion 1, however.  :)

Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many great holes are there at Merion?
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2007, 04:49:38 PM »
Lloyd,

Great analogy using Bruce and Bon Jovi.  Certainly makes me think more deeply about the parallels between music and golf.

I'm a fan as well.  I know you were just in Philly.  Coming back to perform anytime soon?

"Darkness" is Bruce's best album IMO.


Mark,

Nice piggyback with the Guns and Roses analogy.  I agree with your argument for the most part.  But I think the other songs (besides the big three) are much better than people generally think.  Maybe for the reason you allude to; people may not listen to them enough times to give them a chance.   3 big hits supported by some other very good songs, I think.

I'm not sure if that formula is similar to Merion's.  I'll need to think a bit more about how many "great" holes I think there are.  Certainly more than three.  But having only played it once, badly too, I still remember every hole like it was yesterday.  And I think about the course often.  Damn special place.


Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many great holes are there at Merion?
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2007, 05:20:11 PM »
Well said, Ian.  While hard to explain why (Joshua Crane could never do it) the whole is greater than the sum of its holes.  Is Merion East an excellent example of many courses that are as you describe or is it somewhat unique?  In any case, there still are quite a lot of excellent holes at Merion East and they are all perfectly arranged.

Ian, what would you make of the experience found in the original routing?

1,2,6,7,4,5,3,8-18

Wayne -  When was the routing changed to its current configuration?  And why?

wsmorrison

Re:How many great holes are there at Merion?
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2007, 06:22:16 PM »
Wayne,

It was changed sometime after the 1916 Amateur and before the 1924 Amateur.  I think it wasn't long after the 1916 tournament.

It may have been changed because the walk from the current 3rd green to the current 8th tee was pretty awkward (down a short slope and then up a slightly longer and steeper one) and crossed the current 4th tee and close by the current 7th green.  Whatever the reason, the current routing has a memorable flow.

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