[Geoffrey_Walsh]

I was thinking about the upcoming Old Macdonald course and it hit me:

If Macdonald was inspired by the great holes that he observed and used those as the templates for his courses then I wonder if he deserves top billing for the upcoming course which is based on that body of work/style.  Aren't Doak and team really being inspired/guided primarily by the underlying architects of the original holes which the templates were based on?

[Steve Lapper]

I was thinking about the upcoming Old Macdonald course and it hit me:

If Macdonald was inspired by the great holes that he observed and used those as the templates for his courses then I wonder if he deserves top billing for the upcoming course which is based on that body of work/style.  Aren't Doak and team really being inspired/guided primarily by the underlying architects of the original holes which the templates were based on?

The new name just dawned on me...perfect for the time period it should debut in:

The Forward Swap Links (IO Front), (PO Back)!

 

I just hope Ben, Ran, & Mike haven't chosen CLO for their Cabot Links Org LLC

[Norbert P]

 Without knowing what the hole choices will be, it's hard to generate a worthy answer, or even helping to get closer to an answer. Some may think that a "Best Of" is taboo but I'm aching to play The Architect's Club, and other tribute courses some day.  
Macdonald's reasoning for recreating his favorites were geared toward the promotion of greater golf in America, in a time when golf course selection was minimal and uninspiring. Today, I believe, it still has merit in the education of the masses and experts alike. We can't play everything in the world, but with the proper choices, built with respect, I think there can be worthy presentations of great golf theaters. Whether Old Macdonald will emphasize the British originals or Macdonald/Raynor re-originals is a good question. But I do have high faith from previous endevours of the client and design group that the correct guidance and craft will give us a great result.
 

[Brad Klein]

He's already getting top billing. That's why it's called Old Macdonald.

[Norbert P]

 Ummm, call me an ultra-maroon, but why isn't it called "New Macdonald" ?

[Brad Klein]

1. because the spirit of the course is antiquarian, a bit unpredictable and outrageous, also extreme, not smooth and sleek. It'll be scruffy, not polished; wide, not laterally contained; and the concern is more about diverse angles and shot-making than about yardage, carry and numbers.

2. also because his name is Macdonald, not MacDonald.

[Kyle Harris]

In my calculus class there were two Kyles.

Our teacher called me Kyle and the other one Kyle Prime...

...so he could differentiate!

[/nerd pun]

[wsmorrison]

Will a portion of Old Macdonald be original hole designs or is it intended that all 18 holes be an homage to Macdonald?  
 
If all 18 holes are to be an homage, I'm sure it is a challenge for the architect and his team to pull off though at the same time, it limits creativity and originality for the site.   Come to think of it, that was true of Macdonald and his followers as well.  I hope that the project is a success and enjoyable to play.

[Bill Brightly]

Or you could take the enlightened position that having to use templates increases the design problems. You can't simply walk a beautiful piece of property and build the golf holes that pop into your head. Rather, you have to walk the site and "find" the Redan, place the Short in a dramatic location, place the Cape in the best location, visulize your Alps, decide where the Road Hole should go, etc., etc.

I look at it this way: Tom Doak has already proven that he can build a great course out there. Now let's see him and his team build one as Macdonald would. Personally, I think this puts  constraints on Tom, rather than eases his task.

But what I really love about this project is that since Bandon is such a destination site for serious golfers, the course will serve as a tremendous education on who Macdonald was for the vast majority of golfers who currently have NO IDEA. Outside of this website, I think 99% of SERIOUS golfers have no clue who Mcdonald and Raynor were, so this new course will do so much good!

 

[Adam Clayman]

By definition, a derivative on a derivative is a complex complexity.

With two years over which to pre-tweak the course, expectations from the 1% should be very high.

Wasn't it that 1% that made Bandon Resort the crowded place it is today?

[Bill Brightly]

"Wasn't it that 1% that made Bandon Resort the crowded place it is today?"


No, it was the whole 100% of serious destination golfers, very few of whom knew who Macdonald was. Now they will learn, and they will spread the word.

[Tom_Doak]

I didn't even realize this thread was about Old Macdonald, I just happened to click past.

Our intent is that all 18 holes are exemplary of Macdonald's body of work.  I did the routing as Macdonald described doing the routing for National ... "we found a Sahara hole, and an Alps, and right next to it a natural setting for the Redan."  (or something like that, the book is at the office)  I think my committee of advisers were wowed that we found good natural sites for so many of those famous holes, and I've still got one or two up my sleeve.

But, I'm aiming to make our Redan more of a "what if CB had worked on links property?" instead of trying to replicate the 7th at Chicago Golf Club.  I hope that this gives us the leeway to be creative at the same time we are paying homage to Mr. Macdonald.

We get started in January and expect to finish nine holes by May or June.  I will try to post dates for my visit in March so interested parties can come out and see what we've done to date.

[Kyle Harris]

Tom Doak,

It's almost as if these template holes are based in the natural tendencies of land forms and borne out of a natural ability of humans to work upon the land given the chance.

I think templates can be wonderful for such a purpose.

Seriously, how many MacRayBanks courses are poorly routed?

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

I checked this thread a 3:00pm today and I thought that everyone had passed it by.  I guess I need to work on my thread names.

After reading the responses, I am left wondering whether a better course could be created by not putting any parameters on Tom and letting the ground totally dictate the course and hole designs rather than trying to fit templates into the land.  I almost wish Tom could do two routings and post them side by side here so that we could see how the two would differ.  My guess is that there are parcels where either style could trump the other head to head.

I'd like to bust out a topo map of Fishers, start over with a blank slate and see where it leads us.

[Tom_Doak]

Kyle:

You make a good observation which I think is absolutely correct.  I've often noticed how easy it is to find a good place for a Redan hole on practically any site that's not flat, if you just look a little bit for it.  If there are a few of those "pieces" you are looking for, they will drive the routing of the course.

Geoffrey:

I deliberately did not think about the land for Old Macdonald in a "what would I do?" sense and at this point I think it would be impossible to try because I'm stuck on a few of the things we did find.  In particular, the long ridge running through the course made the perfect spot for a couple of Macdonald's blind holes, the Sahara and the Alps -- and I don't know how I would have tackled such a big ridge while trying to avoid blind shots.

I found your mention of Fishers Island particularly funny in light of another thread going on here.  Years ago, when I visited Tom Fazio's office, I asked some of his associates what were their favorite old courses and Jan Beljan mentioned Fishers Island -- I think her father or uncle was the golf pro there for several years.  Anyway, Tom Fazio chimed in that he thought that was a great piece of land, but he thought the Raynor style was all wrong for it and he wished he had a chance to design it from scratch!

[Bill Brightly]

 I am left wondering whether a better course could be created by not putting any parameters on Tom and letting the ground totally dictate the course and hole designs rather than trying to fit templates into the land.  

Obviously, TD has "let the ground dictate the course" quite successfully many times.

Aren't you all fascinated to see what he does working on a project as if he were Macdonald?

[Adam Clayman]

"Wasn't it that 1% that made Bandon Resort the crowded place it is today?"


No, it was the whole 100% of serious destination golfers, very few of whom knew who Macdonald was. Now they will learn, and they will spread the word.

And I gaurantee that even fewer ever heard of, or knew who David Kidd was, and is.

Bill, Honestly your retort makes no sense to me.

What did Macdonald have to with the success of the Bandon Resort that exists today?

[Adam Clayman]

Bill It was my point that Bandon was made a destination because the 1% that do appreciate, used their word of mouth to make the place crowded, today.

[J_ Crisham]

With the completion of a 4th course any sense of crowdedness should be alleviated. The other limiting factor is two fold 1. Limited lodging 2. Lack of things to do for a nongolfing spouse. I took my wife to Bandon(nongolfer) and other than tagging along the town of Bandon is quaint but not exactly Carmel. If one is taking a couples trip I feel Pebble is an easier sell on the homefront if your spouse isn't a golfer . I  would also add that I prefer the experience at Bandon much better-golf and ambience.

[Bill Brightly]

Bill It was my point that Bandon was made a destination because the 1% that do appreciate, used their word of mouth to make the place crowded, today.

Too much talk about derivatives and percentages!!! We are confusing ourselves!

Here is what I think: the Bandon courses attract the most serious golfers. (I agree that Pebble Beach/Spanish Bay, etal.  is a far easier "sell" for a couples golf trip.) But in that group of serious golfers, very few are real serious students of golf architectural history. They are looking for great greens, great turf condition, dramatic design, great views, a great "guys golf trip," etc. etc. They get all of that at Bandon and spread the word. Now they will also be spreading the word about this guy named Macdonald.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Obviously, TD has "let the ground dictate the course" quite successfully many times.

Aren't you all fascinated to see what he does working on a project as if he were Macdonald?

Sure I am, but isn't the end goal on any parcel of land (especially one with this type of potential) to create the best course possible?

I am just curious as to which method would produce the best final product.  In the end, this is all moot because we will never know what could have been but it does make for an interesting discussion about the merits of each style.

[Kalen Braley]

Just a few thoughts.

When we use the term "serious golfer", is this codeword for those who have the means and wherewithal to make such a trip?  I live in the Western U.S. and its still a farily pricey proposition for me in just flights and time to get there alone, much less paying the green fees.

As for comments that the course may not "be the best it can be" by not following the natural lay of the land, I think it seems way too pre-mature to suggest this.  I'm sure there are several potential routings in that piece of property and they'll find one to both serve its purpose as a tribute of sorts and still be natural looking.

Personally, I could not be more excited as it'll hopefully be a NGLA of the west on some level.  As 99.999% of golfers will never be able to play NGLA, to have something that could be a viable proxy is pretty damn sweet to say the least.

[Adam Clayman]

And won't it be the holes that wll connect the already found template holes where Tom and team will show their worthiness as intelligent designers?  

[Tom_Doak]

Not to inject too much skepticism into this project at this point, but the hope that we will build the "NGLA of the West" is a pretty tall order.  That would mean we would definitely surpass Chicago Golf Club, Mid Ocean, et al.  

Can I at least get some odds if we manage to pull that off?

[Joe Bausch]

Can I at least get some odds if we manage to pull that off?

I'll give you the same odds as the Patriots running the table this season.  

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