The Redan: Boost vs. Brake

[Mike Hendren]

Should the fairway immediately right of the green: a) propel the ball forward and leftward; b) brake the ball thereby easing it to the left; or c) be distance neutral, only steering the ball to the left?

Mike

[Bill Brightly]

a) yes, if you hit a draw
b) yes, if you hit a fade
c) yes, if you hit it straight

[JESII]

No rules...I love #7 at Shinnecock but the approach couldn't help a well struck iron shot under almost any conditions...

[Mike Hendren]

No rules...I love #7 at Shinnecock but the approach couldn't help a well struck iron shot under almost any conditions...

Therefore it is no redan at all (the 17th comes much closer) - and frankly, not a very good golf hole.

Mike

[Ted Kramer]

No rules...I love #7 at Shinnecock but the approach couldn't help a well struck iron shot under almost any conditions...

Therefore it is no redan at all (the 17th comes much closer) - and frankly, not a very good golf hole.

Mike

Mike,

If you don't mind my asking, what don't you like about #7?
I'd love to hear why you describe it as, "not a very good golf hole". That description is shocking to me. . .and I'll be glad to tell you why if you are interested.

-Ted

[JESII]

No rules...I love #7 at Shinnecock but the approach couldn't help a well struck iron shot under almost any conditions...

Therefore it is no redan at all (the 17th comes much closer) - and frankly, not a very good golf hole.

Mike

Mike,

Based on the tone of your post I would guess you have the answer key...

[Dan Kelly]

No rules...I love #7 at Shinnecock but the approach couldn't help a well struck iron shot under almost any conditions...

Maybe I misunderstand you, but ...

I distinctly recall seeing someone (David Toms, maybe) bouncing a ball on that approach, and then staying on the high-right portion of that green, during the most recently Shinnecock Open ... while everyone else was screaming bloody murder about the unreasonableness of the hole.

[JESII]

The hill is too steep until about 10 feet short of the green...so yes Dan, Toms may have landed up on that area 5 or 8 feet short of the green, but I hardly call that an approach...more like an apron. Short of that it is a pretty steep face that would require a pro to take about 4 clubs too many and chip it into the hill just to see if it could run up and then stop.

[Bill Brightly]

C'mon, they screamed bloody murder because the USGA let the green die, not that the hole was inherently unfair.

And the USGA apologized for that mistake, not for the hole...

[Dan Kelly]

I believe they screamed bloody murder because at that year's U.S. Open stimp, great players weren't able to handle the hole.

[Dan Kelly]

The hill is too steep until about 10 feet short of the green...so yes Dan, Toms may have landed up on that area 5 or 8 feet short of the green, but I hardly call that an approach...more like an apron. Short of that it is a pretty steep face that would require a pro to take about 4 clubs too many and chip it into the hill just to see if it could run up and then stop.

I understand what you're saying, now (though I don't understand why you wouldn't call that part of the "approach").

Of course I've never been there.

[JESII]

You're correct Dan, it is part of the approach...my point is that the type os shot guys think about hitting into a Redan (see Bill Brightly's answer above) are irrelevant on this approach...it might as well be green when thinking about what the ball will do. I don't think even David Tome hit a shot that needed to land in that 8 foot apron area to be successful.

The psuedo-redan at my home course has a 50 yard approach that fits Bill's answers as do many other redans that I have heard of.

[Doug Wright]

a) yes, if you hit a draw
b) yes, if you hit a fade
c) yes, if you hit it straight

Isn't this the beauty of the Redan design, that both the shot shape and where you land the golf ball strongly influence the result?

[Bill Brightly]

a) yes, if you hit a draw
b) yes, if you hit a fade
c) yes, if you hit it straight

Isn't this the beauty of the Redan design, that both the shot shape and where you land the golf ball strongly influence the result?

Absolutely. I thought this thread was going to go in the direction of how fast and firm the landing area and the green should play. That is the real key, IMO. If the landing area is mushy and the green is wet, you can fly everything at the pin. But if you get everything fast and firm...this hole design is awesome!

When I was younger and hit everything with a fade, I used to do fine on our Redan. But as I got better and started drawing the ball, I became so afraid of turning the club over too much, that I would hit crappy blocks, usually my worst iron of the day... and generally butcher this hole for the year! So now I'm going back to a fade!  

[Brad Swanson]

Well, the approach to the Redan at Shinnecock doesn't do much but kill the momentum of the shot.  The photo below shows a view of the green from the 3rd fairway, so its a little askew.  Regardless, you can see that the fairway in front of the green is not pitched at all to the left (I would almost say that it runs away from the green on the right side of the fairway).  During my round,  I hit a shot at the  rightmost edge of the green planning for a redaneque leftward kick onto the green.  Unfortunately my shot bounced the slightest bit right and into the deep grass surrounding the bunker (see white arrow).  Not exactly what I was expecting.



Cheers,
Brad

[Bill Brightly]

You are right, Dan. But I think in the year 2007, with today's equipment and golf balls, anyone who can hit an iron 170-190 in the air is aiming at a portion of the putting surface, not the kick mound. I think a firm and fast Redan will still have plenty of rollout, still be a really unique shot, but A and B players not bouncing the ball on the green. (The only exception is a far right pin postion, where I might aim at the kick mound.)

So my guess is that Shinnecock's Redan plays like the others for many players.

[Brad Swanson]

You are right, Dan. But I think in the year 2007, with today's equipment and golf balls, anyone who can hit an iron 170-190 in the air is aiming at a portion of the putting surface, not the kick mound. I think a firm and fast Redan will still have plenty of rollout, still be a really unique shot, but A and B players not bouncing the ball on the green. (The only exception is a far right pin postion, where I might aim at the kick mound.)

So my guess is that Shinnecock's Redan plays like the others for many players.

I disagree Bill.  Look at the flags in my picture.  The slope of #7 green at SH lives in infamy.  Try flying one on that firm green with a 2 club right to left zephyr and having it hold.  And I can assure you I can fly the ball 190yds with an iron.  I hit a cut that held its position on the right edge of the green and actually bounced a little right after landing.  The margin for error on that shot is not widened by the fairway very significantly, and trying to hold the green with an aerial shot is very difficult as well.  Its strains to fit the category of a redan and doesn't allow the 3 options outlined in Mikes original post IMHO.

Cheers,
Brad

[Bill Brightly]

OK, I believe you! I have not played the hole so maybe someone else who has can comment? Is the hole iherently ufair now due to the green speed?

[Mike Hendren]

Mike,

Based on the tone of your post I would guess you have the answer key...

Wait a minute - since when did solutions and accountability become part of the treehouse?

I recall hitting the same club on the 7th and its North Berwick namesake.  That's about all they have in common.  There is absolutely no place to miss on the 7th - it is a quintessential 190 yards aerial hole.  I'd rather be in the front left bunkers than on the small patch of fairway from which a pitch is impossible.  Now that I think of it it would be a better hole if the strip of fairway was moved to the left and replaced by more bunkering front right.  The hole calls for a precise high cut with a long iron - period.  There are simply no other options.  That makes the hole penal, unlike its strategic grandfather.  

It is among the sexiest holes I've ever played - quite photogenic.  It's the sore thumb, however, on the greatest set of hands in America.  

Mike

[JESII]

True, it is an extremely difficult hole under most any conditions.  Also true that a running shot is not readily accepted (although in RTJ Sr. fashion, my grandfather made a 1 with a driver 6 or 8 years ago...and he didn't fly it on the green...).

I disagree that only one shot can be accepted though...high or low, draw or fade...the goal is to get the ball in the hole in as few strokes as possible and this is the only par three I have ever played that rewards a ball over the green. There is something good about that in my book.

I have not played the original or the one at National so my frame of reference is limited, but I think its a good counter-intuitive hole...hell, it has you and Redanman fooled so far!

[wsmorrison]

The 7th hole at Shinnecock is played today with a Flynn green and a Macdonald tee.  This is problematic under certain variable conditions including green firmness, green speed and wind speed and direction. Flynn's tee, which was abandoned decades ago, probably for maintenance savings, was constructed 7 paces to the left of the Macdonald tee.  This slight change in approach angle makes a huge difference in how the hole plays, especially under difficult conditions.  From the designed approach angle, the tee shot is more into the sidehill bolster on the right.  Some might think that a few paces to the left won't make much of a difference.  It does.  We recommend that the club restores the Flynn tee and retains the Macdonald tee for historic purposes, variety and the variability in conditions.

Sully, you could correct me if I'm wrong.  I think their are bailout options.  For confident bunker players, there are few places you'd rather miss than the front bunkers.  Long left is an acceptable miss as well.  Chipping back up the slope is not nearly as scary as missing right or back right.

[JESII]

Wayne,

My first reaction in reading your post (and each time we discuss the Flynn tee) is that it may soften the angle into the slope which would be fine, but it sure doesn't increase the run up options...do you agree?

As to baillout areas, the only real viable ones are along the left side, the bunker is not too bad, but I hate the idea of recommending hitting a par 3 tee shot into a bunker...I think the fact that it is so much easier to get down in two from long left than from anywhere else is unique enough to make the hole good...

short and/or right are no good at all...

[wsmorrison]

Jim,

Absolutely right.  You know better than anyone about Flynn's tendency to design holes like this.  Your 3rd hole and the 7th at Philadelphia Country have such narrow effective openings and steep slopes in the approaches that a run up shot is not a good risk reward unless you simply cannot reach the green in the air.  It is Flynn's own imprint on a classic concept.  It is a demanding and exhilarating design, especially if you play it well  

[Ted Kramer]

I hit a lowish drawing 3 iron into some wind when I played the 7th. My ball landed just short of the green and then rolled towards the middle of the green leaving me a gut-wrenching 20 footer. I thought the hole accepted that shot beautifully.

-Ted

[Bill Brightly]

The 7th hole at Shinnecock is played today with a Flynn green and a Macdonald tee.  This is problematic under certain variable conditions including green firmness, green speed and wind speed and direction. Flynn's tee, which was abandoned decades ago, probably for maintenance savings, was constructed 7 paces to the left of the Macdonald tee.  This slight change in approach angle makes a huge difference in how the hole plays, especially under difficult conditions.  From the designed approach angle, the tee shot is more into the sidehill bolster on the right.  Some might think that a few paces to the left won't make much of a difference.  It does.  We recommend that the club restores the Flynn tee and retains the Macdonald tee for historic purposes, variety and the variability in conditions.

Sully, you could correct me if I'm wrong.  I think their are bailout options.  For confident bunker players, there are few places you'd rather miss than the front bunkers.  Long left is an acceptable miss as well.  Chipping back up the slope is not nearly as scary as missing right or back right.

Wayne,

Can you explain the sequence? I though Macdonald and Raynor worked on the course, then Flynn came, made many changes but kept the 7th hole as a Redan. Did Flynn change the tee, moving it left? Did someone else restore the Macdonald tee at a later date?