[David Wigler]

John Conley,

Very well said.  Fazio's worst work is a whole lot better than a lot of peoples best.

Matt,

I have seen some of Fazio's redesign work and "Sucks Eggs" is probably to complimentary.  I wish he would stick to new creations.  As for the comparison to Dye, I think Dye is more extreme on both ends.  Dye's best has exceeded Fazio's best in my mind but Dye's worst is so much worse.  Have you seen Wabeek or Desert Pines?  They are abortions.

[Matt_Ward]

Lou:

No one who designs has a perfect record. I never implied Pete deserves sainthood. But his impact and how he has influenced a great many people working today is unquestioned.

Just look at a few of his best works:

The Golf Club (arguably Pete's finest work!)
Casa de Campo / Teeth of the Dog
Harbour Town
Whistling Straits / Straits
The Honors Course
The Ocean Course at Kiawah
TPC at Sawgrass / Stadium
PGA West / Stadium
Blackwolf Run / River
Crooked Stick
Pete Dye GC
Long Cove
Laquinta / Mountain
Bulle Rock

Lou -- stack up TF's best against Pete and I see it clearly -- Pete Dye will long be remembered. The reason? Pete built courses with clear depth, vision and no architect can extract the same type of psychological horror for the top player better than Pete.

[Lou_Duran]

Matt:

I like Pete Dye, at least the public image of the man, very much.  He may enjoy more critical success than Fazio among gca aficionados because his courses are generally innovative, and often on the edge.  I do believe that Fazio's courses are more "playable", and he will have a wider following.  I am not a real good golfer, so Dye's courses are usually more than I can handle.

At the risk of raising my Michigan friend's ire (Wigler) and yours, I loved the Golf Club concept, but was not enamored with the course.  Of the four major Columbus area courses (before Double Eagle), it was my least favorite.  Unlike Adam, perhaps I just haven't grown-up.  I also prefer Long Cove (which I will be playing again next month) to Harbour Town, which I don't consider a top fifty course.  I offer these opinions lightly- I've only played TGC and LC once, and perhaps they require multiple visits to fully understand them.  

[Matt_Ward]

David:

At the end of the day it's your best work that one should judge. Clearly, architects will have poor courses or "abortions" as you call them. Just check out the "home run" layouts that Pete has hit over the years.

Lou:

Yes, you said it best. Pete is rather edgy -- he doesn't confine himself to standard based theories on design.

I consider TF to be the modern day version of Trent Jones. He provides a high-end product to those with very deep pockets. His firm is a model of efficiency -- they give clients what they want and most come away quite pleased. Nothing wrong with that from a business perspective. The architect makes plenty of $$ and the client gets what they believe they wanted. Everyone is happy as a clam.

The issue is architectural merit -- the staying power of the courses, and as I said before -- DEPTH. Dye at his best incorporates a wider range of shot options and challenges than TF. As a low handicap player I know that when you step "to the tips" with Dye you better be prepared or you will "Dye." No architect creates such a psychological horror as he does. I also forgot to mention in my listing Oak Tree -- check out the horror when you step to the rear tee box at the par-3 4th! Alfred Hitchcock is turning in his grave.

As a low handicap player Pete benefited from his wife Alice's consul in incorporating the total golf experience.

No doubt all architects, including Pete have designed dog courses, but when he's on his "A" game there's little doubt of the legacy Pete has created. I'm just hoping that TF will seek to move his design approach to more than just cranking out one more "beautiful" layout. Given where TF is today in the industry he has the leverage to do this. Does he have the desire. Only he knows the answer to that.

[Bryan_Pennington]

WW, GregH answered your question regarding the Finley site.  TF was given the old course and several ajoining acres to completely rebuild/redesign the course.  The land was leased to the UNC Booster Club during the renovation/recreation to avoid public contract issues since UNC is a state supported school.  TF's budget was basically unlimited.  TF's course does not even use the same routing and no holes (to my knowledge) resemble the old course.  Countless tons of earth were moved, lakes created, and land recontoured; and the end result was not very good.  I can not buy into the arguement that the site was limited because the site doesn't even resemble the original site (no lakes and several holes, 2 or 3, were not even included in the new course due to the creation of the lakes and additional acreage provided TF).  With the budget provided, Finley should have been special not a bore.  

[BV]

WWPB, Galloway National, Victoria National are all some of his better works, notwithstanding his signature problems with an effective routing.  (Victoria is the best in that regard although he didn't use the long water views as effectively as he could have, and the course has other problems that could have been avoided that Ihave commented on before and will not defend now thiose that can type better and cry HERESY!!.)  

Black Diamond Ranch, Estancia and Hudson National are great examples of where his meat never shows up on the bones and some awkward and ineffective features come in to play (Also see VN in this last point's regard).  I just don't get the love fest for Black Diamond Ranch, for example.

WDW Osprey Ridge is one of the most underappreciated golf courses of his that I have ever seen, so there.

Belfair is a perfect "member's course".

And on and on.  

Often, in spite of huge sums of $$$ and plum spots he falls way short and doesn't give what one can easily envision or imagine Dye, Hanse, C&C (dare say!), even others such as Smyers, Brauer, Foster, even the newest Rees (HERESY!), Weed or KB Moran have done in some of their work I have seen.  Most of Fazio's courses don't meet much less exceed some of the lesser known gentlemen (List not complete, by any means) that I have mentioned.

For "The Greatest Living Architect", hullo?

My point is that as I said before, he does a fairly consistently good job, but better than everyone else?  Let's get some intellectually honest perspective here just as everything that C&C does, as good as the features are, don't make top 50 modern courses every time.

Fazio fails in the test of excellence most of the time, it's better than mailed in, but criticism and honest comparison is not "bashing".

[John_Conley]

Fazio takes on a lot less work than Dye.  Are his best projects as good as the ones where Dye is on-site the whole way?  I think you can argue that Fazio's best is a good at Dye's.

[TEPaul]

BV:

I'm not certain what Fazio is trying to do everytime out, but in the vein of "intellectual honesty" about architecture do you seriously believe that Coore and Crenshaw are actually trying to get each new course they do in the top 50 modern courses every time?

Either Fazio or C&C, is that really the way their architecture should be judged anyway?

John Conley:

Fazio takes on a lot less work than Dye? Really? Are you sure about that?

[Ken_Cotner]

I'll also toss Kiawah River into the mix.  Not as special to me as WWPB, but had more happening in and around the greens than I expected; a fun short par-4 with an alternate green; and some good tee shot angles (capes, etc.).

KC

[David Wigler]

Matt,

I do not think we have a wide disagreement but I do want to nit on one point.  I was not drawing a comparison between "Poor courses" and "abortions".  Dye has done some "Poor Courses", Kearney Hills comes to mind.  Wabeek and Desert Pines are abortions.  The golfing world would be better off if they were wiped out in tornados and everyone who plays there is architecturally dumber for having seen them.  They are out and out horrible.  The only other major architect who I have seen produce such dreadful work is Norman at PGA West and Doral.  

Understand that I love Dye.  The Golf Club, Pete Dye Golf Club, PGA West Stadium, Blackwolf Run River, Harbour Town, and the Ocean Course are on any short list of my favorite courses.  It amazes me that he can hit such high notes and such low ones.  Fazio is more consistant.  He may never get as high as PDGC, but he will never make a Wabeek.

[Craig Van Egmond]

David,

       I doubt that Pete Dye ever set foot on Desert Pines, that was a Perry Dye course built under the Dye Designs banner, as are alot of the so called Dye courses out there.

If you check out Perry's website you can get a better idea of the ones he worked on.

http://www.perrydyedesigns.com/index3.html

[David Wigler]

Craig,

If that is the case, it makes it all the more frustrating.  Unless Desert Pines has changed its marketing, they were saying it was a joint effort.  On one hand, we rip Fazio for mailing it in on occasion and on the other hand we give Dye a free pass for allowing himself to be associated with garbage, on the basis that his son did the work?  This sounds like the Johnny Miller argument on the other thread.  So long as Pete has his name on the project, he needs to be accountable for the results.  Having read his book, I would venture to guess he would agree with that statement.  If Desert Pines has withdrawn Pete's name and is now strictly a PB Design, then I withdrawl my criticism of Pete for it and chalk the aboprtion up to LOFT.

[John_Conley]

Obviously I meant Dye takes on a lot less work than Fazio.

My bad.

[SPDB]

Here are the fazio courses i've played

Hartefeld
Hudson Nat'l
Champion Hills
Wade Hampton
Galloway
Johns Island West
White Columns
Reynolds Plantation
WWPB
Short Course at Pine Valley

The quality of the courses on this list ranges from the poor (White Columns) to exquisite (John's Island West).

I think any conversation about Fazio's work, should also focus on conversation about his senior design associates, many of whom have stayed with him a long time, rather than hang out their own shingle (Fry, Strantz, et al.), and many of whom, at this point in TF's career, bear most of the design responsibility. Among this bunch are some really talented archs. No one seems to give Banfield much credit for Shadow Creek. That course is more his than anybody else, and had he not put so much time in out there the course would have come out very differently, and, in my opinion, not nearly as good.

In the same vein, Marzolf also seems to escape a lot of criticism for the restoration work he does, in which he is making the calls.

I understand that ultimately it should be Fazio who the commentary should be directed at since it his name that goes on the finished product, but we should at least discuss some of the associates contribution.

On a side note, anyone who has not seen Johns Island West should a make a point to do so. It is really, really good, and has tons of strategic interest. There are a lot of holes on the course in which the arch took a lot of chances. It's 17th is one of the holes I know of that is both an easy eagle, and tough par. I don't quite know how to describe the hole, but you really have to see it. The 18th is also one of the finest finishing holes I have ever seen. I know John C. agrees with me.

[David Wigler]

No one seems to give Banfield much credit for Shadow Creek. That course is more his than anybody else, and had he not put so much time in out there the course would have come out very differently, and, in my opinion, not nearly as good.

Spiderbite - I am not sure that I agree with that assessment.  I think that Wynn and Fazio deserve the credit for Shadow Creek.  Banfield may have been the site supervisor but Fazio was intimately involved.  It is not at all like Barona, where Baird's name is on the course but Eckenrode did all the work or Maderas with Miller and Meagher.

[Bill Schulz]

The following analysis utilizing the Doak scale:                        
  1. Shadow Creek-Arguably the best manufactured course of the modern era (Whistling Straits is a close second). A solid 9.
   2. Victoria National-Underrated and underappreciated golf course that features front to back sloping greens on both of the front nine par 5s (think 1st green at Oakmont) and hazards directly in the line of play (unlike many Fazio courses where the hazards serve as bumper rails). The 16th hole typifies the challenges of this course as the downhill par 3 of mid length features a lake to the left, woods to the rear, a hill to the right and a creek to the front with virtually no bail out area. Only architectural flaw is both 17 and 18 being dogleg lefts par 4s with a lake to the right. Like Shadow Creek an excellent walking course (other than the cart ride from the 9th green to the 10th tee-as a walking purist I'm ok with that as is also the case at the Ocean course). A solid 8.
   3. Wade Hampton-The variety of golf shots and stunning beauty of the surrounding mountains is rare. The par 3s are exceptional along with the multiple option short par 5 18th with the winding creek along the left side that wraps into play at various points and the dozen plus bunkers (many of them of unique shapes and sizes-the little V bunker 80 yards out looks like something out of NGLA). An 8.
   4. Black Diamond-Yes this course contains 2 or 3 Florida basic type holes. The quarry holes are as dramatic as any inland holes in the US in my opinion. Really neat are the rather small greens particularly the tiny and sloping putting surface for the short par 5 18th. A 7.
   5. Estancia-Course has had turf problems this summer but in my opinion as a desert dweller, the 2nd best ever desert course after Desert Forest (which currently features its longest rough ever, firm fairways and slick greens since its recent restoration). Yes, Estancia may be the playground for billionaires and not be an overly friendly crowd, but the variety of shots ranging from the Kapalua Plantation bounce shot 20 yards short of the green on the front to back sloping first green to the required draw on the strong par 4 18th hole are thought provoking and fun. The dramatic rock outcroppings make it the most beautiful desert course along with Stone Canyon in Tuscon. Unlike Stone Canyon, Estancia is very walkable. A 7.
   6. Pine Barrens-In my mind the closest thing to a puble Pine Valley. Not an architectural flaw but still significantly diminishing the overall experience are the slow Bermuda greens. Shot placement is critical and par 5 on the back nine with its fascinating angles of potential approach reminds me of the 9th hole at San Francisco Golf Club (where I was introduced to golf as a caddie 20 years ago as a teenager). A solid 6 (maybe borderline 7).
    7. Quarry (La Quinta)-Features one of the best pathways to a tee with the walk across the rocks in the natural looking stream (although it couldn't possiblly be so ) on the way to the back tee on the par 3 17 hole. Although overly banked in containment fairways in parts, the finish is rousing as is its walkability. A 6.
   8. Ventana Canyon-Both the Mountain and Canyon courses feature perhaps the worst routing I have ever experienced. It is so bad they actually paint the cart paths red or blue lines to make sure you don't make a wrong turn and play the wrong hole. Despite the confusing routing and the necessity of a cart (boo,hiss), both courses feature excellent bunkering work such as the greensite bunkering on the par 4 9th hole of the Canyon course. I love really small bunkers of unique size and locations such as the small bunker in front of the last par 5 at Long Cove. Both are 6s.
   9. Mirabelle-Across the street from Desert Mountain, this site was originally the Norman Stonehaven course that was never officially opened. Enjoyable golf course but nothing I haven't seen before. Excellent conditioning. Oddly enough, the walk between some of the holes is lengthy (must be for home sites). A solid 5 (same score as Whisper Rock around the corner which features some very attractive small greens,  small squared off tee boxes, and a very walkable layout).
   10. Sand Ridge-Perfectly manicured course with delightful on site lodging. Some questionable bunkering such as the seemingly out of play minefield of bunkers on the first par 5. Perhaps not Top 100 in the long run but a solid 5 (perhaps even 6).
   11. Greyahwk-A terrible golf value along with both Troon North courses at $200 plus in the winter (go play Apache Stronghold or Talking Stick's courses) but still a solid layout that holds up under repeated play. Poor summertime conditioning yesterday.
In summation, Fazio in my opinion produces a consitently hgih level of courses. I wish he would take more chances like he did at Victoria National and definitely stay away from renovation work (ie. Merion and Riviera although the Quaker Ridge changes are for the better).

[SPDB]

David - I'm not doubting that Fazio was intimately involved, but I think people are discounting how much of that involvement was basically Banfield. He did nothing else in the time Shadow Creek was being built. I've heard this from numerous sources, including those inside the Fazio organization.

[David Wigler]

No one seems to give Banfield much credit for Shadow Creek. That course is more his than anybody else, and had he not put so much time in out there the course would have come out very differently, and, in my opinion, not nearly as good.

Spiderbite - I am not sure that I agree with that assessment.  I think that Wynn and Fazio deserve the credit for Shadow Creek.  Banfield may have been the site supervisor but Fazio was intimately involved.  It is not at all like Barona, where Baird's name is on the course but Eckenrode did all the work or Maderas with Miller and Meagher.

[David Wigler]

In that case, I get your point on Banfield.  Do you know which other projects Banfield was involved in?  Did they turn out good or bad?

As to your other point on Marzlof, Fazio is doing this work for his legacy.  It seems like he wants his name attached to these courses.  If that is the case, then I hold him completely responsible for the work.

[Matt Kardash]

tom fazio has designed and mailed-in so many courses that you could probably blindfold him and place him on one of his course's and he probably wouldn't even be able to tell if it was one of his courses

this is how it would go down(i'm doing this for my own amusement, it's pretty stupid, but i'm already laughing)

person x : ok tom, here we are, can you name this course, you've told me so much about it

tom : uh.. ohh, yeah, this is uhh...c'mon give me a hint, it's not as if i designed the place, give me a break!

person x :(trying not to break down in laughter) tom this is "course a", you know that course you designed a few years ago that you told me so much about.

tom : uhh yeah.. i was just messing with you..of course i know this place, i mean i did visit the course one time.

person x : haha let's go tom

tom : how did i agree to being blindfolded? i'm driving this time!

i think thats what would happen, it would be a fun game to play with friends..you can buy the home verison of only 3 easy payments of $29.99

[Craig Van Egmond]

David,

     I looked on Walters Golf home page, the owners of Desert Pines and they advertise it as a "Dye Design", with no mention of Pete anywhere, in fact I could not find any web page where they mention Pete was involved with that course. I do think that Pete lends his name out to support his kids, ala Jack Nicklaus providing employment for his offspring.


    I have only played 5 Fazio originals:  Raptor/Oak Creek/Primm Valley/Karsten Creek and Osprey Point.  I must admit all of them were enjoyable, although I would only play Karsten Creek again. Although at $225 a pop, I won't be playing there anytime soon.  I think Fazio churns out a solid reliable product and makes the people who hire him very happy. I only wish he would stick to original work and leave the classics alone. My take on his philosophy is that he forces his vision upon the land, instead of letting the land dictate. Not that there's anything wrong with that.  

[David Wigler]

Craig,

We have an identical opinion on Fazio.  I hope you get a chance to see some of his best soon.  When he is good, he is really good.  Primm Lakes is a cheap imitation of Shadow.  If you liked Primm, Shadow would knock your socks off.

I played Desert Pines several months after it opened.  At the time, it was being advertised as a Pete Dye work with help from his son.  I have told this story many times because it was one of the funniest things I have seen on a golf course:  Bob Lewis was teeing off on the hole next to the road.  Bob hit his traditional high fade - starting it over the road.  As we watched the ball sail majestically, our eyes were drawn to the billboard of the strip club with the stripper in a suggestive position.  Bob's tee ball hit the stripper exactly where you would check to see if the bushes matched the treetops.  It left a mark there that looked like someone was trying to do dirty things to the billboard.  I do not know if I have ever laughed so hard on a golf course as I did listening to him argue that he should get a free reload for hitting the stripper (Or at least a free table dance - kind of like the signs in old ball parks - Hit it hear and win a suit).  Ironically, it was the best hole on the course.  The remainder was 77 acres of horse crap lightly defined as a golf course.

[David Wigler]

Matt,

You base your Fazio opinion on which courses that you have played?

[Matt Kardash]

david, don't take anything i said very seriously, i like to be silly and make jokes..maybe you don't think it's very funny or very true but what can you do...

[TEPaul]

I thought redanman's general summation of Fazio's career work and theme in his 6:14am post of today was a very accurate one except the part where he said Fazio doesn't understand the roll of history in design and architecture as well as.....!

I would disgree with that and say that Fazio does understand the roll of history in design a lot better than most think, only  he feels that he's one architect who can directly compete with that history and any historical era in which architecture was highlighted and shone.

In that way I think Fazio feels he can or almost has created his own era possibly very similar to the way Robert Trent Jones felt he could create his own era, and actually did,  quite apart from what came before him which certainly in RTJ's case he more than understood!

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