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Coral_Ridge

Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« on: August 07, 2002, 10:50:08 PM »
Okay guys.  It is known on Golf Club Atlas that Tom Fazio is not real popular as an architect.  Having read the recent thread about Johnny Miller's golf courses, and the reference made that his body of work is possibly worse than Fazio's made me wonder.  Sure Fazio has rolled out golf courses off the assembly line, but I have to say his courses are quite popular.  And as a consequence he is very successful as a golf course architect.  I have only played his golf course at Kiawah Island.  And I did enjoy it.

For those here that have played a number of his golf courses, which one is his best?  Whether you like him or not, which is his best?  100 years from now if it said that he only has a handful of "great golf courses" then fine.  Many of the great golf architects only had a small number of "great golf courses".
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Carlyle Rood

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Don't understand frequent criticism of Fazio
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2002, 11:05:10 PM »
I've been fortunate enough to play a few of Fazio's courses.  Frankly, I don't understand the hostility towards his designs in this forum.

I played Sea Island's Seaside course three times a few weeks ago.  (Pictures will be posted when I get home.)  He did an outstanding job of not only restoring the links feel and marsh habitats, but he also integrated two unique sets of nine holes into a spectacular and unified design.  From playing some of his other layouts (Wild Dunes, The Farm), it seems he went out of his way to preserve Colt and Alison's style of bunkers throughout.

The restoration of the waste areas and the plantings of native grasses and flowers were beautiful.  It was a genuine pleasure to experience this course.

I've played Sea Island since childhood.  Fazio improved a course I've enjoyed for years.  And, yes, I have played Ocean Forest and I think it's the SECOND best course on the Golden Isles.  Sea Island's Seaside course is the finest.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2002, 03:20:10 AM »
Shadow Creek may very well be Tom Fazio's best design.  It is amazing to take a look around the property - dead-flat, ugly scrubland - and then see the masterpiece of the golf course that he imagined and turned it into!
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2002, 04:33:54 AM »
My home track, The Meadows Del Mar in San Diego, is a 3-year-old Fazio.

themeadowsdelmar.com

http://students.ou.edu/C/Matthew.A.Cohn-1/courses/meadows/meadows.html

It won't be in the 100 Greatest, but it wasn't meant to be I don't think. It's a fun, enjoyable golf course, but I it stands out from other Fazio's by offering some good risk-reward shots and a few very difficult, but very good holes, that Fazio might not have built 10 years ago. Fazio dealt with some serious environmental restrictions on the site and made a course that people love to play, and it's one that I think even a lot of GCA'ers would like. In terms of the characteristics that GCA'ers look for, I think it's on a different level than Pelican Hill, for example.

I bet if many people here had played Karsten Creek, they'd quickly say that was Fazio's best. Is it a coincidence that KC was also probably his smallest budget, and one of his best sites?
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Paul Richards

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2002, 04:52:44 AM »
MC:

I've played Karsten Creek.  It's no where near one of my favorite Fazio courses, let alone favorite courses.  I'm sorry, but to me this one is vastly overrated.  It did absolutely nothing for me.  Big and wide, there was nothing interesting about it.  I was very disappointed after playing there having heard so many good things about it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Jerry Kluger

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2002, 06:19:42 AM »
I would agree that Fazio has created a name for himself and because of that he has created some very mediocre courses which have been way over rated.  Shadow Creek is a very unique course in that he created what Steve Wynn wanted in the middle of a desert.  The eye appeal of the course is incredible and it is truly unbelievable where the course is but he could have done that anywhere with enough money and that is the point; try to create a course based upon the land which you are given not based upon some fantasy.  I must say that I enjoyed playing Shadow Creek and I would gladly play it again but it simply shows what money and today's technology can create.

The Fazio course I really like is Galloway National.  It has many wonderful holes and some of the green complexes are quite interesting.  It is a very enjoyable course to walk even though the routing at times leaves long walks between holes.  The course itself seems to be very much in tune with its surroundings and the course follows the elevation changes very well.    
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John_Conley

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2002, 06:21:13 AM »
Some of his best work:

Pine Barrens at World Woods
Black Diamond Ranch's Quarry Course
Shadow Creek - amazing from a blank slate
John's Island (West)
Victoria National - as long as you are okay with difficult layouts

Much of the work turned out by his design team is cookie-cutter in nature and very well received.  Hiring Tom Fazio is generally a good business decision.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2002, 06:29:04 AM »
As a Fazio defender, I will take the bait and probably end up in another overwhelmed battle.  Fazio, along with Dye and Ross, are the only architects where I can say that I have played five of their courses that I truly love (Side note, I have only played four Mackenzie's and three Raynor's).  Shadow Creek is Fazio's Opus and is deserving of the top twenty praise that it gets.  Victoria National is a fantastic golf course and should stay in top 100 lists for years.  World Woods - Pine Barrens is one of the best public golf courses built in the US and should also stay in top 100 lists for years.  Flint Hills National and Golf Club of Tennessee are both worthy of their place on top 100 lists and terrific efforts in golf architecture.  

I have heard fantastic comments on Belfair, Estancia, Wade Hampton, Black Diamond, Karsten Creek and Sand Ridge but have not played any of them (I am playing one next week, so this list might have another name on it) so they are not part of my Fazio love fest.  Sure Fazio has mailed in efforts.  With all of his work, it is inevitable.  When he is on his game though, he is the absolute master at creating golf courses.

Tommy - your reply?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Dan Grossman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2002, 06:29:29 AM »
Of the Fazio's that I have played, World Woods - Pine Barrens is the best.  I think that golf course is actually very good.  It is wide off the tee, but not excessively.  There are also lots of strategic features that force you to hit the ball to one side or the other of the fairway to have the best shot into the green.  I really like the par 5's on that course.

Of the ones, I haven't played...Black Diamond Ranch and Wade Hampton are both supposed to be very good.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2002, 06:36:04 AM »
Dan:

You get it.  And the brilliance of the design is that the "proper side" of the fairway varies from day to day depending on hole location.
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John_Conley

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2002, 06:37:03 AM »
Dan:

You get it.  And the brilliance of the design is that the "proper side" of the fairway varies from day to day depending on hole location.

Compare that to Rolling Oaks where you only need to hit it down the middle to set up the approach you want.  No surprise that 60% of average golfers actually favor it over Pine Barrens.
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A_Clay_Man

Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2002, 06:41:03 AM »
Dan Grossman gets it. WWPB is a great course in the Fazio frame of reference because he actually gives the player options, lines of charm and other strategic design features on some if not most of the holes.

This IMO has been the crux of the issues with TF's design. The fact that he is so succesful has no bearing on whether it''s quality Golf.

After all, would you call McDonalds the best burger you ever ate? Frozen, standardized, sometimes Kangaroo, one just can't go off on the quality, it's a product perfectly suited for the masses.
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Lou_Duran

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2002, 07:07:10 AM »
Adam,

I am not a huge Fazio fan, but your analogy to MacDonalds is neither novel nor applicable.  Fazio has designed some excellent courses, a few which will through the passage of time "earn" the respect of being among the very best.  Like anyone with a large body of work, some of Fazio's courses aren't particularly exciting from a gca standpoint (e.g. Osprey Point).  But the same can be said about Ross, RTJ, and some others who have given us so many places to play.

A Fazio course that I really like is Camp Creek near Panama City/Seaside, FL.  Another good one, at least before the hurricane and all the development, is Wild Dunes.  I hope to play Dallas National soon after it opens during Labor Day weekend, and I predict that it will be a course of note.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2002, 07:15:44 AM »
Lou-While my analogy may not be perfect, in one aspect, I feel it representative of the complaints about his work and I felt that perhaps the masses would understand the similarities :o.

P.s. At one time McDonalds was a real treat, but then I grew up.
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Rob Hallford

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2002, 07:24:57 AM »
Lou--

Not to put words in Adam's mouth, but I believe his point was that for him commercial success of a product does not de facto mean that product is of a high quality.  For me, I equate it to music:  just because something is on the radio doesn't mean it is good (no, Fazio is not the Britney Spears of GCA).  I think this site encourages people to evaluate golf courses on the basis of certain merits beyond name recognition, flashy/dramatic scenery, or commercial success.  

Where perhaps we go overboard is in knee-jerk reactions the other way:  "X (fill in with favorite archie to loath) is commercially successful and does too many jobs at once so the product must be crap."  We are all subject to our own biases about different architects.  I played Sultan's Run in Jasper, IN, and my thoughts of the course were tempered from the very first swing by the fact that there was a waterfall waiting behind 18 green (ugh).  When I found out Tim Liddy (whose work I like) did the course, my attitude changed.  In the end, I believe courses should be evaluated on the merits of their shot values, creativity, and challenge rather than by who designed them or what the GCA pop hit of the week is.
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Bryan_Pennington

Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2002, 07:27:35 AM »
I have played 5 or 6 Fazio courses and understand both sides of the debate.  Some of Fazio's courses offer little to no strategic options while other courses offer great challenges and options. For instance, in Wilimington (Wrightsville Beach), you have Porters Neck and Eagle Point.  Porters Neck is a CCFAD and was built in the early 90's.  It is a very good course, routing and use of land.  Directly accross the street you have Eagle Point.  Eagle Point is a VERY high dollar private club that offers all the bells and whistles for its members. However, the course is somewhat cookie cutter and one dimensional.  That said, Eagle Point is always in excellent condition, offers caddies and a pleasure to walk.  It is just not a strategic gem (probably due to acreage limitation.  

The same could be said for Forest Creek in Pinehurst and Finley Golf Club (UNC) in Chapel Hill.  Forest Creek is an excellent course with all the strategy and options you could ask for.  Finley is a long, borish, brute...kill it down the middle, long iron to huge green, start over on the next tee box.  It is amazing that Fazio can create such good courses, Forest Creek, and such bad courses, Finley.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2002, 07:28:24 AM »
I've played 8 original Tom Fazio designs, and am hoping to play at least 2-3 others before the end of the year.

My favorite I've played is World Wood Pine Barrens, which stands out as much more thoughtful and strategic than others of his I've played.  It is a superb golf course.  ;D

I've also played a number of courses where Fazio was involved with the "restoration" of.  

Let's just say that I like his original courses a hell of a lot better than his "restoration" work, which sucks eggs.  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

WilliamWang

Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2002, 07:42:18 AM »
bryan- how much of finley was restoration and how much was new work?
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Randy Van Sickle

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2002, 07:56:20 AM »
I haven't played many Fazio designs, but have played John's Island West many times, which I believe is a fantastic routing over some pretty exciting terrain (particularly for Florida).
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Can't get back to RDGC soon enough

Matt_Ward

Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2002, 07:59:47 AM »
John Conley said it best regarding Tom Fazio --

"Hiring Tom Fazio is generally a good business decision."

On that point, there can be no real argument because a "Fazio name" course moves the bottom line big time. For developers looking to push lots and anything else that adds to the financial ledger bringing TF on board makes perfect sense in any major $$ investment involved.

The question is does Fazio produce golf courses that will still be discussed 50, 75 or 100 years from now? That's the key point that is often raised by many here on GCA.  

I've played a wide assortment of Fazio layouts over the years from all over the USA and will see one of his newest this weekend in my home state. Among the ones of note I enjoyed include the following in no particular order of emphasis or preference:

Shadow Creek
Wade Hampton (only wish the grounds could be consistently firm and fast)
Galloway National
Victoria National
World Woods / Pine Barrens
Estancia
The Quarry at LaQuinta (solid ending and maybe one of the more underrated TF designs!)

A few others worth listing:

Sand Ridge -- not impressed and can't fathom how it's listed among the 100 best by GD

Black Diamond -- good layout and the quarry holes rise to the occasion -- especially the 16th, but a bit lite.

Pinehurst #8 -- quintessential layout for those anti-TF people. Contains plenty of color but no depth.

Pelican Hill -- great beauty but again pro forma layout.

Meadows del Mar -- decent layout for the reasons Matt Cohn mentioned. The long par-4 5th (?) is a honey of a hole but the overall course is not in the same league as Diego counterpart Barona Creek.

However, if you took the "best" of TF and compared it to the "best" of Pete Dye it would be no contest. Pete Dye changed the landscape and thinking of modern course design. His impact will be lasting and he will be mentioned in the pantheon of the greatest designers of all time. He has not followed the high-end Nordstrom franchise mentality you often get with a TF design.

I second what redanman says that TF does build good golf courses. It's neatly done and very top shelf. I often think of a TF design as a high profile model walking down the runway during an exclusive fashion show. Very polished -- very sleek, very full of body and presence but I often ask where's the depth?  Where's the sophistication, complexity or is it just skin deep?

Just like redanman I'm always interested in the next TF design because one can never tell if something of real quality will be in the offing. A few TF designs I've played indicate it can be achieved. I'm also hopeful for his future efforts becayse he has a unique role in influencing set the terms of where design can be. The question is does he want to do that or is it nothing more than a well-oiled financial cash cow.

My mind is open but I'm taking the Missouri approach --

SHOW ME !  ;)

John C: I have not played John's Island / West and will when I return to Florida this winter. Thanks for the heads-up.
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JWalker

Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2002, 08:01:53 AM »
Pine Barrens is far and away his best work( that I have played).What I don't understand is why he can't continue to create strategic options in his courses(at least the few that I have seen) ???. To me his work at Pine Barrens shows he has the understanding and ability. What gives? With the exception of Shadow Creek, aer there any other of his courses that come close to Pine Barrens? Some his courses are so boring, with no options or strategy(albeit quite beautiful).
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Greg Holland

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2002, 08:05:45 AM »
Reportedly, Finley was a complete redesign.  As I recall, the site there was described as quite poor, and many consider Finley to be good given that limitation.  I haven't played it.

Also, when criticizing Fazio, keep in mind he has to design each course based on what that particular client wants, so each design is not necessarily going to be a very good course - as defined on this site.  

The only Fazio course I have played is Old North State in NC.  It is a good course, many say very good -- fitting the mold of an earlier thread: it challenges all levels, while still being enjoyable.  To score well, you have to think your way around the course.  On top of that, it is very beautiful, and all the members love it.
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Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2002, 08:25:24 AM »
Adam,

I pray that my palate "matures" beyond what Fazio has to offer, as well as the means to indulge it.

Rob,

Well said.  No disagreement from me.  But do you really believe that Fazio generally receives much more than a visceral critique here?   If it is purely his architecture/design that is being analyzed, why is money always brought-up?  Is there a little of a populist vein running through this site?

Mike,

The only remodel/renovation of Fazio (with his uncle) that I have played is Inverness, and the new holes stuck out like a sore thumb.  Based on my very limited experience, I tend to agree with your stance.

Matt,

Which courses of Pete Dye will go down as classics?  Ocean, Teeth-of-the-Dog, The Golf Club, Crooked Stick, TPC/Sawgrass?  Have you ever played Mummy Mountain in Phoenix?  How about Little Turtle north of Columbus?  Dye's work is hardly spotless, and I wouldn't want to bet the farm that his courses will be held in higher esteem than Fazio's at the end of time.
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John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2002, 08:37:12 AM »
Nothing gets the board buzzing like a discussion about Tom Fazio!

Matt:  JIW is terrific.  I'll stake my reputation on that.

Lou:  Big fan of Camp Creek.  I thought it was great.  I usually don't find manufactured dunes done tastefully, but somehow they got it right.

Lastly, if someone has only played "5 or 6" Fazio courses, just think how much their opinion would be derived by WHICH 5 or 6 they played.  Living in the SE I've played 5 or 6 real good ones and 5 or 6 pretty blah.  The result is dependent upon the quality of the site and I don't think he turns down a lot of jobs for his firm.

A below-average course from Tom Fazio is way better than an average golf course in America.[/color]
  -  John Conley, August 8, 2002

Is that so bad?
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John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2002, 08:41:01 AM »
Camp Creek
WW - Pine Barrens
WW - Rolling Oaks
Black Diamond Ranch (Quarry)
Black Diamond Ranch (Ranch)
John's Island (West)
WDW - Osprey Ridge
Lake Nona
The Legacy Club at Alaqua Lakes
Pelican's Nest (Gator/Seminole/Hurricane 9s)
Bonita Bay - Sabal
Bonita Bay - Cypress
PGA Reserve (North)
PGA Reserve (South)
Long Point
Hammock Dunes

That's just a partial list of his work in Florida off the top of my head.  I think you can see how varied one's opinion could be if they only saw Black Diamond and World Woods versus seeing a housing development like Alaqua Lakes and PGA Reserve.
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