[Bill Brightly]

Don't know that course. Is the tree 77 years old or did somebody plant it along the way?


I assume the tree is 230 or so off the tee?

Can others who have played this hole comment? (Looks to me like it would be a very pretty hole once you get rid of the trees...)


If the big hitters can bomb it over the trees, and the short hitters can't, then this is the worst kind of hazard I can imagine.

[Doug Spets]

Jamey...

re:  PB Dye's drivable par-4 in columbia


What was your first indication it might be a bit goofy?  Coulda been that 25-foot flagstick.

[Mike Benham]

If the big hitters can bomb it over the trees, and the short hitters can't, then this is the worst kind of hazard I can imagine.

Figure 275-300 from the back tees over the tree ...


And why is it the worst kind of hazard?  As the most difficult hole on the course, the higher handicap golfers will get a stroke ...

[Mark Manuel]

Longaberger GC has a great tree in the fairway on the first hole.  But, I wouldn't call it the "middle" of the fairway.  It is cut into a sloping fairway and only in play for pulled shots.  Don't know how many will agree, but that is one lovely tree.

Isn't the inside joke here that any tree in the fairway, regardless of whether or not it is in the middle of the fairway, is a pet peeve when we end up behind it?  Even one right next to the fairway?

Whether it is a mound, a bunker, a tree or anything natural that provides a line of sight off the tee on a hole I am grateful to have it.  Beats one of those move ten tons of dirt Fazio creations.

[Bill Brightly]

As I said, if the big hitters can bomb it over the trees, and the short hitters can't, it's terrible design, in my opinion.

But these trees are pretty far out, so you probably have to go past them on either side. The map makes it look like the fairway is very wide and it seems to give you a fair chance to play to either side of the tree, a "bottle" type of hole, and you can safely get around the trees with your second shot.

If this is the case, I'd back off "terrible design" and just call it a deisgn that I don't care for. (I would much prefer a series of bunkers providing the risk/reward, not trees. But hey, some people think a VW bug  is beautiful design. I think its a little weird.

I still would like to know if the trees were always there, or got planted on Earth Day in the 1960's...

[Walt_Cutshall]

I don't mind the occasional tree in the fairway. I think they are like blind holes--if used sparingly, they can add variety to the strategic challenge facing players.

[Doug Ralston]

Never understood the aversion to trees here. It seems to me that it is just another tool usable by an imaginative GCA [do you know any of those?] to provide challenges for the playerws. If YOUR imagination is too limited to use them, please do not pretend others cannot find them effective and interesting.

Is this STILL all about OC and type? Well I certainly wouldn't rule you out for designing along those 'classic' lines. Just try to be open minded enough to concede that other ideas are also quite worthy.

Note: Trees are VASTLY more natural on most sites where courses are built than sand pits. Yet I have no objection to sand bunkers at all.

Repeat after me: "golf is three dimensional, golf is three dimensional, golf is three dimensional .......... ' until your shot can clear a tree easily.

Doug

[Bill Brightly]

I do NOT have an aversion to trees. I think they are lovely, and look great on golf courses, but MY OPINION is that they look ridiculous in the middle of a fairway, and I think it is junk design.

My OPINION is that while golf is a 3 dimensional game, 3-dimensional hazards are inherently unfair to higher handicap golfers (I'm a 4 handicap, so I can fly many.)

My mind is WIDE open, I have probably played every style golf course ever made. And I have come to believe that trees in the middle of fairways are goofy. But I realize many people like goofy things. You could park a back hoe in the middle of a fairway, or build a halfway house, and some people would think THAT would be fun. I have a different opinion, thats all.

[Bart Bradley]

Here's my problem with a tree in the middle of the fairway.  If I aim left of the tree and just barely fade my ball, I might now be dead.  If I hit a poorer shot, a large slice, I might now be in perfect position.  I don't think that this sort of "hazard" properly penalizes the golfer for his/her error....a small error should not be harshly more penalized than a bigger error.  Count me as a member of the "trees in the middle of the fairway are goofy" group.  But, I could be just plain wrong.

Bart

[Andy Troeger]

Trees in the fairway are a mixed bag, sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. Tom Weiskopf uses them pretty frequently and it seems like they are rarely in the way (usually tall skinny pine trees). Obviously the ones at Cypress Point on #17 seem to be favorably thought of by most people as well. They tend to force thought which is usually a good thing. Forest Highlands Canyon #9 and #16 both use trees well.

The hole at Butler is not improved by the tree in the fairway, but I don't think its the worst thing in the world either. Same goes for #5 at Blackthorn (South Bend, IN--Hurdzan). There used to be a tree on the approach to #13 at Honeywell GC in Wabash, IN that was just awful. Lightning took care of that   I'm certainly open to them, but sometimes it works better than others.

[mike_beene]

Edgewood Tahoe is the most over the top on fairway trees I have seen.A few holes would be ok,but I can think of 7 holes there with fairway trees.What a beautiful place though.

[Jamey Bryan]

Doug

Same course (I'm almost sure, it's been a while) but different hole.  The one I was talking about is not drivable, and the tree comes into play for just about any approach.  This one's a downhill drive dogleg right, then the tree in the middle of the fairway in front of a pond on an uphill approach.  Bloody godawful!!  

I know the hole you're referencing and agree.  I was recently playing a senior interclub fourball match....  my partner and I both drove the green but lost to a duffer who ran it through one of the fronting bunkers, over the fronting mounds to about 10 feet and made the putt with a shot.  I really don't understand how Northwoods keeps such good players.....  It's a long way from the best course in the area.

Jamey

[Doug Siebert]

If trees in the fairway are limbed up high enough, they are often more of a problem for longer or high ball hitters than they are for short or low ball hitters who can't or don't have to hit it high enough to deal with the branches and only have to miss the trunk.

I'd go along with the idea that a tree that long hitters can carry is probably a pretty bad hazard, as it only accentuates the advantage of length.  I don't think that Stanford hole qualifies though, from the distances shown the 124 yard sprinkler appears to be about even with the tree, making it 350 yards just to get even with it from the 475 yard tees.  Even Tiger with a 40 mph wind at his back wouldn't have a prayer of flying that thing!

I'll take a tree in the fairway of any type or location over a tree that overhangs the teebox and can catch tee shots anytime.  The latter is a particular hazard for high ball hitters playing from the back tees, which as a result bites me more than most.  Its one thing to crash into a tree and lose 50 yards on your tee shot, its something altogether different to crash into a tree 50 yards off the tee, often resulting in a lost ball!

[Doug Ralston]

Trees can offer options! Over [for us high ball hitters  ], under [ground game advocates: alert!], around either way [good players who can 'work' the ball], and through [Arnie says trees are 90% air]. Of course, circumstances can cut down those choices, but rarely to only one. I thought you guys loved options? Man up!  

I have seen some very bad use of trees. At one course, there is a hole where I practically have to use a medium or short iron off the tee because of a close, overhanging tree, leaving me unable to reach, and I admit THAT is not good to me. But I have seen many excellent examples of trees used for more than to define the lines of play.

I still love the one in the fairway on #2 at Stonelick Hills in Cincy. It is relatively small, a little right of center, and it puts a question to your tee shot. The best approach to this green is from the right, but that has the least room and the most tree entanglement. The interesting thing to me is that the tree is young. It will grow, and as it does the play on the hole must necessarily be reconsidered.

Trees are like every other GCA device ....... good when done well, a pain when not.

Doug

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