[TEPaul]

JohnV:

After talking to a few people I'm beginning to understand that perhaps they realized if they adopted the regression option in the Unplayable Ball Rule (as they had been planning to do) due to certain rare circumstances they might also have to put a regression option into Rule 27. I guess we can all contemplate some circumstances or situations where this might become confusing as to which Rule applied and so it might need to be in both. Apparently this was a bit more than they wanted to get into at this time. This might just be a matter of what some Rules minds call the "Law of Unintended Consequences" (by a Rules change you may be creating more problems than you had without the Rules change).  

It also appears that some on the Joint Rules Committee who may've recommended the regression option slated for Rule 28 may not be all that necessary anyway, particularly given the late realization of this potential problem involving say Rule 27, as they may've reasoned that a player getting completely trapped by this kind of situation is pretty rare anyway. The justification for that reasoning could very well have been Richard Tuft's (The Principles Behind the Rules of Golf) stated logic "That the Rules should not attempt to deal with the EXCEPTIONAL."

[JohnV]

Tom Paul says:

Dennis:

So far as I can tell (and on some investigation of the Rules prior to 1950) a player has always been prohibited under the Rules from lifting his ball in a hazard for identification purposes. The Rules change for '08 is the first time in the Rules of Golf this will not be a prohibition (again, so far as I can see).

Not so sir.

From the 1948 Francis Ouimet book "The Rules of Golf"

Rule 11 Lifting, Identification:
On notice to the opponent in match play and to the fellow competitor in stroke play, a ball in play may be lifted for identification, but must be replaced on the spot from which it was lifted.

Nothing about hazards there.

Interestingly if you played a wrong ball in a hazard, there was no penalty in stroke play, but you could lose the hole in match play.

In Match Play there was no penalty for playing a wrong ball anywhere if it wasn't your opponent's and you discovered the fact before the opponent played his own ball or if your opponent  played yours before things were discovered.  In that case you played out the hole with each other's ball.

In Richard Francis book, "Golf, its Rules and Decisions" from 1939  Rule 9 of the Match Play rules says:

Ball Not to Be Touched Except for Identification
A ball in play may, after intimation is given to the opponent, be lifted for the purpose of identification, but must be replaced on the spot from which it was lifted.

Again, no exception for hazards.

Stroke Rule 12 is basically the same.

The Wrong ball rules are basically the same as 1948.  

From Francis' comments, at one time, in stroke play you were allowed one shot with a wrong ball anywhere on the course with no penalty, but a second shot got you DQ'ed.  HE says he liked that rule better as he only knew of one case where a player got DQ'ed.

He further comments:

The penalty for playing one shot with a wrong ball is so severe, two strokes, that if a player be wise, he will, to identify it, by everlastingly lifting his ball from rough or when it is partly buried or when it is covered with dirt.  No player likes to do that - there is always the question of replacing the ball exactly as it was and of knocking mud off it accidentally or for identification.

By the time of the 1957 rule book, that I have, the rule was basically as it is today.

[Jim Nugent]

I used to play a skins game with some guys and we played under those rules (except we could take the flag out for putting)  Once you tee up your ball you don't touch it again until you pluck it from the hole, or you are DQed for that hole.  If you hit it OB, lose it, hit it in the water or somewhere unplayable, you are DQed for that hole.  There was no moving of loose impediments like leaves next to your ball or small rocks on the green, either.  There was no fixing of ball marks on the green before putting, we didn't even fix our own until after everyone holed out unless it was clearly not going to come into play before holing out.  You truly had to play the course as you found it!  Even the tiniest violation meant you were out of that hole.

How do you think those rules would affect scoring in a medal play event?  How about length of rounds?

[TEPaul]

JohnV:

A couple of things:

If it was permitted to lift and identify one's ball in a hazard previous to 1950 as Dennis Harwood mentioned above I was only able to review the R&A Rules of Golf previous to 1950  from the Leith Society website that chronciles the history of the R&A Rules of Golf.

As far as I know there is no website that comparably lists the history of the USGA Rules of Golf.

I also recognize that previous to 1950 and the unification attempt between the R&A and USGA Rules of Golf the two associations Rules of Golf could've been quite different in various areas compared to after 1950 and today.

Here are some of the applicable Rules from the 1946-1950 R&A Rule Book pertaining to identifying one's ball including in sand and in a hazard.


Rule 9
Ball not to be Touched except for Identification
A ball in play may, after intimation is given to his opponent, be lifted for the purposes of identification, but it must be replaced on the spot from which it was lifted.



Rule 21

Looking for Ball in Bent, etc
(1) If a ball be lost in fog, bent, bushes, long grass, or the like, only so much thereof shall be touched as will enable the player to find his ball.

In Sand
(2) If a ball be completely covered by sand, only so much thereof may be removed as will enable the player to see the top of the ball; if the ball be touched in removing the sand, no penalty shall be incurred.


HAZARDS AND CASUAL WATER

Rule 25
When a ball lies in or touches a Hazard, the club shall not touch the ground, nor shall anything be touched or moved, before the player strikes at the ball, subject to the following exceptions:-
(1)The player may place his feet firmly on the ground for the purpose of taking his stance.
(2) In addressing the ball, or in the backward or forward swing, any grass, bent, bush, tree, or other growing substance, or the side of a bunker, wall, paling, or other immovable obstacle may be touched.
(3) Steps or planks placed in a Hazard by the Green Committee for access to or egress from such Hazard, or any obstruction mentioned in Rule 11, may be removed, and if a ball be moved in so doing, it shall be replaced without penalty.
If any fixed steps or plank interfere with a player’s stroke the ball may be lifted and placed as near as possible to the spot where it lay in a similar lie and position without penalty.
(4) Any loose impediment not in or touching the Hazard may be lifted.
(5) The player shall be entitled to find his ball as provided for by Rule 21.



As you can see Rule 9 does seem to say a player can identify his ball anywhere and as you mentioned there are no exceptions to that in that particular Rule. However, Rule 21(2) (In Sand) and Rule 25(5) (Hazards) also seem to put restrictions on that right. And so, it would seem the restriction or exception to lifting and identifying one's ball in a hazard (or in sand) were not in that particular Rule (Rule 9) but in other Rules in the Rule Book (Rule 21 and 25).

Again, this is the R&A Rules of Golf previous to 1950. I don't know if the applicable Rules in the USGA Rule book were the same thing.

It certainly isn't very clear and maybe that's another reason for the unification process of 1950.

If one was able to lift and identify one's ball in a hazard (or in sand) previous to 1950 then one really does wonder what Rules 21(2) and 25(5) are all about and say what they do.

They may be just another example of how the Rules apparently allow or used to allow you to do various things in certain Rules unless some exceptions are put on some of them somewhere else in the Rules.

[TEPaul]

JohnV:

Furthermore, if one continues to read those Rules with the idea of wrong ball in mind you can see that back then a player was not penalized for playing a wrong ball from a hazard and was only penalized if he played it again in Stroke play once he played it out of the hazard. And in match play he wasn't penalized if he advised his opponent he had played a wrong ball from a hazard before his opponent played his ball.

All of this would seem to follow and be a logical result and procedure for not being permitted to lift and identify one's ball in a hazard or presumably in a bunker---eg Rule 21(2) (In Sand).

Again, the old purist principle of not being able to put your hands on your golf ball seemed to be so much more pervasive in the old days---eg the effect of the stymie et al, that it seems sort of illogical to me that the Rules would have allowed players to lift and identify their golf ball in a hazard or in sand (bunkers and such), and these Rules (21 and 25) seem to support that, despite the fact that their restrictions aren't listed and made more clear in a Rule such as Rule 9 (in the R&A book).

[Dave Collard]

Fundamental to the notion of playing the game fairly at least in the last 50 years is the notion that you play the course as you find it and the ball as it lies.  Every attempt should be made to avoid touching a ball in play in my view.

To be really ridiculous I would favor:
1.  No touching your golf ball (EVER) without penalty.  
2.  Yeah that means even on the green no marking and cleaning the damn ball--the game is already too damn slow.  I'd let you put with the flagstick in as well--used to do it years ago  
3.  No relief from cart paths, GUR, obstructions...!!  If you don't want to hit it, take an unplayable and then you can fondle it all you want!

You rock!  I have played this way for many years.  In an
organized fashion since 1996.  We play it ever year at
RSG-Ohio.  I call it Match Play Madness(TM).  I think it
is the most fun you can have in golf.

You can read my thoughts here:
  http://matchplaymadness.com.

I think it works great - for match play at least.

-- Thor

"touching the ball in play without penalty
was anathema to me, a kind of sacrilegious profanity"

-- C. B. MacDonald

[Doug Siebert]

I used to play a skins game with some guys and we played under those rules (except we could take the flag out for putting)  Once you tee up your ball you don't touch it again until you pluck it from the hole, or you are DQed for that hole.  If you hit it OB, lose it, hit it in the water or somewhere unplayable, you are DQed for that hole.  There was no moving of loose impediments like leaves next to your ball or small rocks on the green, either.  There was no fixing of ball marks on the green before putting, we didn't even fix our own until after everyone holed out unless it was clearly not going to come into play before holing out.  You truly had to play the course as you found it!  Even the tiniest violation meant you were out of that hole.

How do you think those rules would affect scoring in a medal play event?  How about length of rounds?

Well, it couldn't ever work for a medal play round because the "ganging up" aspect is what makes it fun.  If you played a medal round that way and got paired with three buddies they could stay out of your way if you were looking to win, but look out if you were paired with three of your #1 competitor's buddies!

As for length of rounds, I think in the end it was pretty much a wash.  The time we'd save by guys getting knocked out of the hole due to water or whatever and not messing around with GUR, casual water, picking up leaves and fixing ball marks was lost on the greens due to the strategy involved.   Putting took longer because it was a real tough mental exercise that was a lot different than "normal" putting, and even guys who had no chance to win the hole still played a role on the green in trying to help encourage a tie.  In normal skins games the guy who is laying four in the greenside rough picks up if there are two guys on the green in two 30 feet away.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()