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Joe Hancock

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Diaganol ridges in fairways
« on: November 05, 2007, 04:46:06 PM »
I know we've discussed this before, but with the influx of new blood to the DG, I thought it might be good to highlight this gem of the routing world.

Sunningdale, NY uses it several times throughout the round, but in dramatic fashion on the par 4 13th hole. With newly remodeled tees, including a bit of additional length from the back tees, it should cause even the big bombers to recognize what the challenge is and chose their line accordingly.

Other examples? With or without bunkers?

Joe

" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Scott Witter

Re:Diaganol ridges in fairways
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2007, 04:53:04 PM »
Joe,

I love them when used effective, intentionally or unintentionally.  An old course 1922 I am working on has them on 5 holes, 3 solid par 4's and 2 par 5's and the tee shots must negotiate them in one fashion or another for the best angle and to have the best stance for the 2nd shot.  Only one hole has bunkers...the ridges, though not abrupt and very effective influencing ALL tee shots and essential strength to each hole.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Diaganol ridges in fairways
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2007, 04:57:15 PM »
I love the concept.

Just like I love cross hazards, which it seems we never see this side of a Doak and C & C course.

Diaganol anything presents a challenge....it affords a risk/reward.

How much can you bite off?  What is the punishment for not pulling off the shot?  

I hope to see a lot of those at Wolf Run Point!!! ;)
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Diaganol ridges in fairways
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2007, 04:59:20 PM »
The 8th hole (400+yd. par-4) at Golspie (north of Dornoch) has a diagonal ridge across the fairway in the landing zone. The most direct route to the green is down the left side of the fairway, but that is the longest carry across the ridge. Drives that don't carry the ridge will kick left into the rough and the heather & gorse.

The ridge is closer/easier to carry down the right side, but that makes the 2nd shot play a bit longer into the green.  #8 and #9 at Golspie are the two best par-4's on the course.

Adam Clayman

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Re:Diaganol ridges in fairways
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2007, 05:05:08 PM »
Joe, I've heard you and Mike have done great things out in that corner of the property.

 For those who don't know, Sunningdale's pedigree is quite diverse. From Raynor, Travis and Tillie all the way to Stephen Kay.

The land has great movement and the fabulous bones are being exposed by the sensitive touch of Mike DeVries and Granpa Joe.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Philip Gawith

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Re:Diaganol ridges in fairways
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2007, 05:07:50 PM »
Here is a great example - the 12th at Royal St Georges. The flag is right of the right hand bunker.




Joe Hancock

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Re:Diaganol ridges in fairways
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2007, 05:11:26 PM »
Thanks, Adam.

That ridge on 13 is definitely something we won't be touching, even though it came up a couple times from members. Hands off.....it's one of the best natural land forms on the property.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tom Huckaby

Re:Diaganol ridges in fairways
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2007, 05:14:18 PM »
I love holes like this.

One that springs to mind for me is #4 at Bandon Trails.
The ridge absolutely makes the hole..

http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/bt_hole4.cfm

TH

Joe Hancock

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Re:Diaganol ridges in fairways
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2007, 05:17:49 PM »
Tom,

Good one. That hole also utilizes a fall away green, if I remember correctly?

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tom Huckaby

Re:Diaganol ridges in fairways
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2007, 05:19:11 PM »
Shoot.. short term memory loss...I recall that green being exceedingly cool... and I don't think it was a fall away... but it's not coming to me for sure!

I need to eat some memory vitamins.

 ;D ;D
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 05:19:52 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Kalen Braley

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Re:Diaganol ridges in fairways
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2007, 05:20:06 PM »
Indian Canyon in Spokane, WA has a few holes with these diagonal portions of the fairway.  On at least 2 of the par 5's its makes laying up a challenge.



The fun to them is that they provide so many options and when you play the course over and over there always seems to be a new strategy or route to take advantage of them.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 05:30:44 PM by Kalen Braley »

Peter Pallotta

Re:Diaganol ridges in fairways
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2007, 05:32:52 PM »
Are there any instances of these type of diagonals causing  drainage issues? Not that I want the answer to be yes, just wondering. Can a diagonal ridge ever be too severe for its own good?  

Peter

Pete_Pittock

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Re:Diaganol ridges in fairways
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2007, 05:36:16 PM »
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 05:37:07 PM by Pete_Pittock »

Joe Hancock

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Re:Diaganol ridges in fairways
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2007, 05:38:28 PM »
Peter,

I think in most cases, these diagonals exist because of drainage, on a big scale. I'm sure there are some man made ridges used effectively, and it would add to this thread if someone has examples.

Also, Peter, I should ask you specifically what you thought of the ridge that bisects the 14th hole at the Mines GC. How did you play the hole, and how did that ridge affect your decision making at the tee?

Thanks,

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Diaganol ridges in fairways
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2007, 05:42:08 PM »
Joe,
   You probably know this better than I do.. they're all over the place at Greywalls, but some are masked a bit by the more random whoppdy doos that permeate the property.  I like the one in the teeshot landing area of #14

Cheers,
Brad


Mark Manuel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Diaganol ridges in fairways
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2007, 05:49:35 PM »
If you want to see this at an extreme here is the course for you:

http://www.moundbuilderscc.com/Files/The%20Golf%20Course.pdf

Hard to describe and fun to play.  Nothing quite like it.


The golf ball is like a woman, you have to talk it on the off chance it might listen.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Diaganol ridges in fairways
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2007, 06:42:47 PM »
Here is one from Stoneham.  The fairway behind the photographer curves back to the right for the drive - making this carry all one can see - its very deceiving.


Here is another cool one from Stoneham.  The carry out to the left is about 270ish and to the right about 230ish.  The easy carry leaves a funky shot over the right greenside bunker. This is good stuff.  


Probably my favourite ridge is the wee one just in front of Pennard's 6th green.  You can see the dune on the right extending (but lower) right past the front of the green.  This is a great little feature which really defines the hole for me.


Thanks for bringing this subject up Joe.  Anyway a course is made more interesting without using sand is fine by me.

Ciao

New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Bill Brightly

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Re:Diaganol ridges in fairways
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2007, 06:54:08 PM »
What about the old horse racing oval used at Somerset Hills?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 06:55:46 PM by Bill Brightly »

Dan Smoot

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Re:Diaganol ridges in fairways
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2007, 07:46:27 PM »
I love holes like this.

One that springs to mind for me is #4 at Bandon Trails.
The ridge absolutely makes the hole..

http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/bt_hole4.cfm

TH

Thought of this hole when I read the subject title.  From the tee, you are blind to the fairway beyond.  When I played it the first time I was unsure of distance from ridge to line of bunkers on left edge of fairway.  I admit a caddy gave us an approximate line and I still pulled it badly.  Ended in one of those first couple of bunkers.  Had a lie with overhanging branches from the vegetation beyond the bunker and a fairly high bunker lip.  I was dead both in lie and line to the green, an obviously memorable hole to be followed by the wonderful green on No. 5

Peter Pallotta

Re:Diaganol ridges in fairways
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2007, 07:54:49 PM »
Joe - thanks. I think I understand that.

On your question: if I'm remembering it correctly, when I first got to the 14th tee, the ridge struck me more for aesthetic reasons than for strategic ones, i.e. by that point, I'd already enjoyed/appreciated how the landforms had been used in several different ways, and this was the latest and newest example. And playing wise, my first thought was to go straight over the middle of the ridge, maybe with a little favouring of the right side; I was playing decently, and playing the right set of tees, so I didn't think it (or the ridge) would be a problem at all. But then I started getting less confident about that, and started aiming more to the left...and that's when the bunker of the left side started bothering me, and I couldn't get it to stop bothering me.  In short, I ended up flaring a poor tee shot off to the right and short, and one the wrong side of the ridge.  From there (since I was scoring well, for me at least) I didn't want to make too big a number, so I played a safe shot intentionally short of the green to the roomy left side of the fairway, then pitched it up and two putted for bogie.

I was having such a pleasant morning that I just moved on, but normally I'd have been more bugged at myself for that -- I shouldn't have made bogie, not THERE at least (there were a couple of long had Par 4s on the back were I expected to). It isn't a long hole, and the tee shot didn't strike me as hard until I let the ridge start worrying me ('unneccessarily'). I think it's a very good golf hole, especially comng where it dos in the round, ie. after a short Par 4 and a long par 4, and before a "short" Par 3......And it was, as I think you and Mike intended it to be, a fun hole.    

Peter
« Last Edit: November 06, 2007, 07:17:04 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Diaganol ridges in fairways
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2007, 02:54:35 AM »
I hope I remember this correctly but doesn't the 3rd at RCD have a ridge that sends balls pulled (safely) let even farther to the left.  That may not be a good "diagonal" but it's a great ridge.

#11 at Winged Foot West has a diagonal that forces a tee shot down the right.  A tee shot catching the ridge from a tee shot pulled slightly or even  in the middle sometimes can bounce into the left rough.

#18 at WF East has a left to right ridge that really narrows that fairway up if you hit driver.

#8 at NGLA has the diagonal split fairway

#4 at PV has a ridge that really forces you along the right tree line to avoid a massive kick to the left and into the &%#@$

Without a doubt some of the greatest tee shots have this diagonal feature ;D

Mark Pearce

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Re:Diaganol ridges in fairways
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2007, 04:22:02 AM »
There's a great but subtle one on the 4th at Elie, which runs across and along the fairway from about 170 yards out and then creates a step in the green.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Andrew Hastie

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Re:Diaganol ridges in fairways
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2007, 07:35:51 AM »
A couple of good photos showing the  4th at Bandon Trails.I missed both drives right and it's a tough second to get a line on.



Jason Topp

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Re:Diaganol ridges in fairways
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2007, 10:52:33 AM »
This thread helped me to realize that part of the reason I really enjoy my course is that it has a ton of these.  It seems like most modern bulldozed fairways eliminate this enjoyable aspect of the game.

At Oak Ridge there usually is the opportunity to gain a significant advantage by taking an agressive line with a long drive.  Nonetheless the drive needs to be accurate (often within about 10 yards) or else a bunker, trees or a bad angle awaits.  

Here are some examples:

On the 460 yard 8th - the ridge feeding into the bunker on the left means the difference between a 200 yard approach and a 150 yard approach.  It is about 270 downhill yards to get past it on the left and another 20 yards on the right.



This picture gives you a sense of how pronounced thr ridge is



On the 345 yard 10th - climbing the ridge (and risking a pond at the corner) means the difference between a visiblle 75 yard (or less) shot over a blind 110 yard shot to a severely contoured green.  This picture is out of date as some trees at the corner have died, making the agressive play more tempting.



On 13 - it is between 210 and 230 to get it over the ridge.  If you do so, you have a 75 yard shot to a severe, elevated green, if not, you have a 150 yard blind shot from an uphill lie to severe elevated green



On the 545 yard 14th - carrying it over the ridge that feeds to the bunker on the left makes the hole reachable for long hitters.  For the rest of us, it feeds balls into the bunker leaving a choice between hitting a 3 wood or trying to squeeze a tee ball in the more favorable left side



On 15, squeezing a drive in about a 10 yard space on the right side of the fairway past a ridge at 260 off the tee can result in driving a 360 yard hole when downwind on firm ground.  This picture is from where you would want the ball to land.



This picture doesn't help much, but it is looking back on the 440 yard 18th hole, which is a slight dogleg right.  If you can squeeze a drive next to the 1trees on the right side (left in this picture), you can bypass these two ridges and turn a 190 yard blind approach into a 140 yard visible approach.  I succeed one out of ten attempts but almost always try to pull it off with a tail wind.  Trees gobble a tee shot right.  A pull or hook can feed off the slope into a pond.




The 2nd, 5th and 17th holes also make wonderful uses of diagonal ridges (or small hills) to make the tee shot more interesting.  I do not have decent photographs of them.

Matt OBrien

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Re:Diaganol ridges in fairways
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2007, 11:20:41 AM »
HV C2 is a good example and also Flynn 6

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