[Matthew Hunt]

Here is an Idea for rating GCA's on how good they were over a career purly using cours. It uses the Doak scale for easy-use. Includes remodeling (Not Open Doctoring). Course can fall into every catergry for GCA;

Best 5 courses added together- max 50

Best course under $100/£50- max 10

Best course under $200/£100- max 10

Best public- max 10

Best Club course(can allow vistors)- max 10

Amount of states countries worked in- max 10

Mark=  /100

Everyone try to rate a GCA past or present or themselves. Most GCA will struggle to get half marks.

[Eric Franzen]

I'll start then...

Donald Trump

Best five courses added together: 4 (He's only worked on one which I would rate as a Doak 4. modestly interesting, couple of distinctive holes, views... )

Best course under $100: no...

Best course under $200: does twilight fee's count?

Best public: Trump National LA

Best club course: sorry, no members here... and Fazio did Trump Bedminster by himself

Amount of states/countries: 1

[Matthew Hunt]

I'll start then...

Donald Trump

Best five courses added together: 4 (He's only worked on one which I would rate as a Doak 4. modestly interesting, couple of distinctive holes, views... )

Best course under $100: no...

Best course under $200: does twilight fee's count?

Best public: Trump National LA

Best club course: sorry, no members here... and Fazio did Trump Bedminster by himself

Amount of states/countries: 1

So that would add up to 9 then?

[Eric Franzen]

I'll start then...

Donald Trump

Best five courses added together: 4 (He's only worked on one which I would rate as a Doak 4. modestly interesting, couple of distinctive holes, views... )

Best course under $100: no...

Best course under $200: does twilight fee's count?

Best public: Trump National LA

Best club course: sorry, no members here... and Fazio did Trump Bedminster by himself

Amount of states/countries: 1

So that would add up to 9 then?

Yes. I'll guess so.

We wont hand out any extra points for the waterfalls, no?

[Tom_Doak]

Matthew:

Do you get to use the first 5 courses again in the later questions or do you have to use different courses for that part?

[Matthew Hunt]

Tom, you can use the course as much as you want it is supposed to offset the sites and big budgets.

A 10 with a cheap public course would give the GCA a very high over-all rating which they would deserve.

P.S I sent you an unreleted I.M

Matt

[Adrian_Stiff]

Tom, you can use the course as much as you want it is supposed to offset the sites and big budgets.

A 10 with a cheap public course would give the GCA a very high over-all rating which they would deserve.

P.S I sent you an unreleted I.M

Matt

None of my courses are Doak ranked so I guess im disqualified.

[Matthew Hunt]

Tom, you can use the course as much as you want it is supposed to offset the sites and big budgets.

A 10 with a cheap public course would give the GCA a very high over-all rating which they would deserve.

P.S I sent you an unreleted I.M

Matt

None of my courses are Doak ranked so I guess im disqualified.

You give them your own rating.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Tom, you can use the course as much as you want it is supposed to offset the sites and big budgets.

A 10 with a cheap public course would give the GCA a very high over-all rating which they would deserve.

P.S I sent you an unreleted I.M

Matt

None of my courses are Doak ranked so I guess im disqualified.

You give them your own rating.

Well im a 57 then.

[Jim Nugent]

I'll start then...

Donald Trump

Best five courses added together: 4 (He's only worked on one which I would rate as a Doak 4. modestly interesting, couple of distinctive holes, views... )

Best course under $100: no...

Best course under $200: does twilight fee's count?

Best public: Trump National LA

Best club course: sorry, no members here... and Fazio did Trump Bedminster by himself

Amount of states/countries: 1

I laughed when I read your post.  

Then I started wondering how Trump himself would rate his courses.  Here are my guesses, along with a few comments the Donald might make...

Best five courses added together: 50 ("I got the best course in California.  The best in Florida.  The best in New Jersey.  If Doak isn't smart enough to see that, he's FIRED!")

Best course under $100:  "Unfair.  Shouldn't even be a category.  Waterfalls cost money, you know."

Best course under $200: 10.  "After all, we believe in affordable golf."  

Best public: 10.  "Trump National LA.  Better than Pebble Beach."

Best club course: 0.  "I hate that country club elitism."

Amount of states/countries: 10.  "They love us everywhere we go."

Total score: 80 out of 100.  "And it should be 100 out of 100, if this scale was worth a damn."

[Matthew Hunt]

Ratings needed for;

Tom Doak
C+C
Hanse
Dye
Fazio
Jack N
Norman
Mackenzie
McDonald
Colt
and many more...

I challange all site GCA to do it, then you are offically better than Trump

[SPDB]

I do not get the value of this exercise. The 2d and 3d criteria are strange particularly when you are being asked to compare (i assume) on the basis of 2007 dollars courses that were finished yesterday and courses that were finished 80 years ago. Also, courses that were designed for private clubs and only became public after the architect died.

[Matthew Hunt]

I do not get the value of this exercise. The 2d and 3d criteria are strange particularly when you are being asked to compare (i assume) on the basis of 2007 dollars courses that were finished yesterday and courses that were finished 80 years ago. Also, courses that were designed for private clubs and only became public after the architect died.

The 2rd and 3rd criteria show abiltity to produce a quality sustainable golf course on a low buget or bad piece of land. These value hold true whatever the monatry value.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I do not get the value of this exercise. The 2d and 3d criteria are strange particularly when you are being asked to compare (i assume) on the basis of 2007 dollars courses that were finished yesterday and courses that were finished 80 years ago. Also, courses that were designed for private clubs and only became public after the architect died.

The 2rd and 3rd criteria show abiltity to produce a quality sustainable golf course on a low buget or bad piece of land. These value hold true whatever the monatry value.

Matthew - I think the problem in your excercise is that there is no exact science to rating couirses and one magazines top 100 is not the same as anothers, the best way to evaluate opinioned rankings is to collate them all, and if say RCD comes out 4, 5, 7,7 ,3,  5 and 4.. add um up and divide by the 7 opinions. You could determine an architects best work from that, it gets much more difficult when you try and assess peoples best wrk on public courses etc . Other criteria you could use is what courses are used for championships and allocate points to the architect, but even that is flawed, because £££/$$$ sometimes buy the tournaments. I dont think there is an answer really.

[Paul_Turner]

Matthew

Since nobody else appears to want to,  I'll start with Colt.  Sticking to your rules and using Tom’s numbers from the book i.e. real Doak scale:

1) Best5

Muirfield 10, Pine Valley 10, Royal Portrush 9, St George’s Hill 8, Swinley Forest 8

2) Best Under 50 quid:

County Sligo 7

3) Best under 100 quid:

Portrush Dunluce (winter rate 60 quid) 9
 
4) Public

St Andrews Eden 5

5) Best club course (can allow visitors)

Muirfield 10

6) Countries

England, Scotland, Ireland+N Ireland, Wales, France, Belgium, Spain, Germany, USA, Canada, Holland (10+)

Total 86

[Matthew Hunt]

Colt will be hard to beat.

[Tom_Doak]

Not that hard, actually:

MacKenzie:

top 5 courses:  Royal Melbourne West 10, Crystal Downs 10, Cypress Point 10, Kingston Heath 9, Augusta National 9

best course under $100:  Crystal Downs 10

best course under $200:  Crystal Downs 10

best public course:  Pasatiempo 8

best club course:  Royal Melbourne West 10

Countries worked:  Argentina, Uruguay, Canada, USA, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, Scotland, England, Northern Ireland - 10 or 8 depending how you count

Total:  94 or 96.

Of course I'm a MacKenzie fan so the Doak ratings might be arguable, but I'm not sure which of them would get much argument.

Heck I might have Colt beat, depending on whether Ballyneal and Cape Kidnappers are 8's or 9's on the Doak scale.  And I've only worked in five countries.

[John Kirk]

Bill Coore/Ben Crenshaw:

Doak scale ratings are my best guess.

top 5 courses:  Let's say Sand Hills 10, Friar's Head 8, Bandon Trails 8, Kapalua Plantation 8, Old Sammich 7

best course under $100:  I don't know.  Using Tom's questionable decision to nominate Crystal Downs as a sub $100 course, I have to believe one of C&C's clubs charges under $100 for guests.  I'll guess this number is 6.
 
best course under $200:  We-Ko-Pa 7  (Bandon Trails is over $200 in high season)

best public course: Bandon Trails 8

best club course: Sand Hills 10

countries worked: 1

Total: 73, thus exposing a flaw in the system.  These guys are great designers, so the "countries worked" factor is undesirable.

What about the total rating of the designer's best 10, 15, or 20 courses, regardless of location?

[Ryan Farrow]

John, there is more to the world than the United States, come on man. I think its a fair category, being able to expose the rest of the world to great golf is important.  I don't know if it deserves 10 points though.

[Tom_Doak]

John K:  Why is my decision to call Crystal Downs a sub-$100 course questionable?  The guest fee is $80, and Paul T. was using private clubs for Colt's numbers.

Coore's rating is higher than you've got him.  Friars Head is a 9, and if Paul was using the winter rate for Portrush, then you can use Bandon Trails for their under-$200 course.  Also, Coore & Crenshaw have done a course in Indonesia, and Bill has worked in France as well, but they do trail me in the international category.

[Paul_Turner]

Hey Tom's cheating... promoted some of Mackenzie's courses on the his scale:  Pasa is a 7 and Kingston an 8 in the book.

Plus Pasa ain't a true public, it's semi-private or about the equivalent of a UK private.  Pick a proper Mackenzie muni i.e. Blackpool Stanley Park at a 2 (can't think of any others). At a 5 I wouldn't have picked the Eden otherwise.

Mack's total: 86

Guest fee at private US clubs should be allowable only if you can carry your own bag i.e. a caddie is $50-100

Winter rate is ok on a links.  Courses are in good shape still and Matthew's 2:1 exchange rate is abnormally high (Portrush peak rate (110 pounds) would normally be under $200)

[John Kirk]

 Bill Coore/Ben Crenshaw, updated based on inputs from Tom:

Doak scale ratings are my best guess.

top 5 courses:  Let's say Sand Hills 10, Friar's Head 9, Bandon Trails 8, Kapalua Plantation 8, Old Sammich 7

best course under $100:  I don't know.  Using Tom's questionable decision to nominate Crystal Downs as a sub $100 course, I have to believe one of C&C's clubs charges under $100 for guests.  I'll guess this number is 6.
 
best course under $200:  We-Ko-Pa 7  (Bandon Trails is over $200 in high season)

best public course: Bandon Trails 8

best club course: Sand Hills 10

countries worked: 3

Total: 77

Ryan, I agree an architect's work is enhanced by designing internationally.  I don't think I'm suffering from Ameri-centrism (oooo, new word!).  I'm just thinking about the best way to rank architects the best way.  10 out of 100 possible points?  Maybe.

I'm sure giving Crystal Downs 30 points on a 100 point scale is not the answer.  Maybe you should give Mackenzie 18 and Maxwell 12 of those points.  For whatever reason, when I saw Tom's list I thought of a pickup basketball game, when a guy misses a shot and then calls a phantom foul on his defender.  We'll give him the ball back, but I want to call bullshit first.

Somebody help me out here.  Does anybody know a C/C course where they can take guests for under $100?  This category is biased towards classic designs, since the moderns still have to pay back construction costs.  Cuscowilla?  Chechesee?  Also, when all is said and done, Bandon Trails may be thought of as a Doak 9.  Very nice and very interesting golf course.

[Andy Levett]

Pick a proper Mackenzie muni i.e. Blackpool Stanley Park at a 2 (can't think of any others).

The two courses at Temple Newsam are munis but there's no Doak rating for them. Anybody been?

[Matt MacIver]

Heck I might have Colt beat, depending on whether Ballyneal and Cape Kidnappers are 8's or 9's on the Doak scale.  And I've only worked in five countries.

Tom -- I've only seen the pictures and read the reviews here and elsewhere, but I thought the ranking question on Ballyneal was either a 9 or 10, not 8 and 9....?

[Tom_Doak]

John K:

Bumping up Bandon Trails to a 9 on the Doak scale, when I say it's an 8, is b.s.  (And so is Paul Turner's decision to call Pasatiempo semi-private.)  MacKenzie eviscerated the field using Matthew's system.  

The system does need tweaking -- at the very least, you should have to use different courses for each of his categories, as I tried to suggest earlier by asking that question.

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