Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike — The most dramatic portion is the series along the creek. I realize that trees have been a part of the setting for some time, but obviously new trees and much more mature trees have "taken over" some of the strategy. That is a shame, especially with the newfound "friends" of the Park who will argue against any attempt to remove trees, even though it is clearly needed for true restoration of some areas.

I am looking forward to a more in-depth comparison of the existing course with the original. It seems obvious that a lot of interpretation will be required in certain areas, and good balance between what was — and what will fly in this Century.

The hillside holes are charming with their often blind putting surfaces and lone bunkers.

Previous management seems to have taken its toll on the course — trees left to grow wild, no security during the winter (a four-wheeler had recently messed up a few fairways), poor maintenance protocol, ill-planned priorities, etc.  A sad situation, especially now that no one seems to have any money. The current No. 6 green work should ideally be overseen by someone who can bridge the gap between golf architecture, maintenance, engineering and history. While I am not 100% certain, it looks to me as if it simply is being winged in-house. Usually, that is a crap shoot.

Forrest,

Thanks for your thoughts..

There is no question that any revitalization/restoration of Cobb's Creek would require tree removal to reclaim the historically acclaimed avenues of play lost in the re-routing.   The irony is that almost all of those avenues are still treeless as late as 1971 aerials.

Looking at the overgrowth today, it's a classic example of the idea that a golf course without a continuous tree-management program will eventually turn into a jungle.   I would think any organization looking at the best use of parkland in the city, as well as any groups with a sense of civic pride and history would be overjoyed at any effort to upgrade the park overall, especially when the intent is true HISTORIC RESTORATION, and ongoing preservation.

I don't know the deal with previous management other than there was very little funding for maintenance.   You may be surprised to hear this but the conditions today are better than they were any time during the past 25 years, particularly the greens (with the exception of #3, which is a green needing rebuilding). 

I didn't see any new work to the 6th green when I was there 3 weeks ago.   2 weeks ago I spent my time looking at the Karakung course mostly, so I'd be curious to know what is planned there.   I'll have to get back down this week for a look-see.   

I'm also curious why you think a lot of interpretation might be required in certain areas to properly restore the course?  Could you tell me some examples of what you see might be needed?

Again, I appreciate hearing your feedback and it's really great that you had the chance to get over there on your return from Europe.

[Forrest Richardson]

Interpretation? Because some of the "exactness" of the original is lone gone. In areas where you cannot — physically, financially, reasonably or agronomically — return the exactness of the original, there will need to be interpretation. That will require a balance between what should happen and what needs to happen...to what can happen. Rarely do we ever get a 100% restoration, and my guess is that Cobbs will need to adapt somewhat in certain areas.

[Mike_Cirba]

Interpretation? Because some of the "exactness" of the original is lone gone. In areas where you cannot — physically, financially, reasonably or agronomically — return the exactness of the original, there will need to be interpretation. That will require a balance between what should happen and what needs to happen...to what can happen. Rarely do we ever get a 100% restoration, and my guess is that Cobbs will need to adapt somewhat in certain areas.

Forrest,

Can you provide an example?    I'm really unclear at what you feel is unrecoverable, or "exactness that is long gone"?

One of the really interesting and promising things to me about Cobb's Creek from a restoration perspective is that every single greensite that was in play during the 1928 US Publinx is still in play.   Other than where today's driving range is on City Line Avenue, that used to be the fairway of the par five 13th hole and was co-opted by the Army for a missile battery in 1955, (forcing a somewhat impinged re-routing utilizing all original greensites) and the subsequent tree growth in the past few decades on abandoned former avenues of play, it's probably a blessing that the city never had money to change it a whole lot, much less "modernize" it.

We have original topos and routing maps, aerials from the 20s, 30s, 40, 50s, 70s, 80s, and today and hardly anything has changed but the routing of holes necessitated by the impingement of the missile silos in 1955.

[Forrest Richardson]

I think the trees are the most dramatic example. From what I understand it will be very tough to get rid of many trees. That alone will require that some decisions be made on all of the areas that cascade from the edges of tree canopies; turf limits, bunker positions, and even green sizes. It will be great to get as much of the original back as possible, but there is certain to be some needed interpretation.

While my knowledge of the course pales to yours and others, I see significant differences between many of the early photos and what is there today. Like I said, it will be great to get as much of back as possible.

It's an odd reaction to the word "interpretation" in GCA discussions. On one hand there is a strong argument for interpretation when it comes to realizing a new course...yet, when it comes to restoration the word can cause a bad reaction...!

[mike_malone]

 I think the tree removal necessary to restoroute  CC is a piece of cake compared to other courses where I have seen it done.The most important removals are the  crappy trees and underbrush to bring back the tee shots for #6 ,#12 and #13. After that some  useless evergreens can easily go to open up #9 ,#10 and #11. Tree removal is a simple part of this project.

[Forrest Richardson]

I hope the powers that be share your view!

There are scores and scores of decisions to be weighed in any work such as that at Cobbs.

[Mike_Cirba]

I think the trees are the most dramatic example. From what I understand it will be very tough to get rid of many trees. That alone will require that some decisions be made on all of the areas that cascade from the edges of tree canopies; turf limits, bunker positions, and even green sizes. It will be great to get as much of the original back as possible, but there is certain to be some needed interpretation.

While my knowledge of the course pales to yours and others, I see significant differences between many of the early photos and what is there today. Like I said, it will be great to get as much of back as possible.

It's an odd reaction to the word "interpretation" in GCA discussions. On one hand there is a strong argument for interpretation when it comes to realizing a new course...yet, when it comes to restoration the word can cause a bad reaction...!

Forrest,

Some things have changed besides the routing, no question, but the vast majority is the tree and underbrush growth that have taken over abandoned fairways.

I'm not sure where the "bad reaction" is coming from to the word "interpretation".   I just asked a question to understand better what you meant when you said that the course has had an "exactness that is long gone".

I asked because "interpretation" wouldn't be a word that would immediately come to mind in thinking about restoring a course where all the greensites and greens still exist, where no mass earthmoving ever occurred, where no great natural or man-made features have been destroyed or tampered with, where considerable aerial and other pictorial evidence has been uncovered, and where the only property loss to the original course over almost a century is still owned by the city in the form of the driving range.

Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding your use of the term because even those things that have been altered, such as the original island 12th green, we have very good photographs of.   If by interpretation you mean that some things might be politically challenging, or economically challenging, then we might be on the same page, but as far as being able to restore the golf course to virtually the exact same course played in the 1928 US Publinx tournament, there is absolutely nothing but permission, money, and will to make that happen standing in the way.  In other words, from a golf course standpoint, there is nothing that has been irrecoverably lost over the past century.

Your post did give me an idea, however, and I think what I'll do it go through a hole by hole aerial pictorial in coming days, and we can examine what's changed over the years.

Thanks again for your thoughts and feedback.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:

Let me know if you need some stealth chain saw work.  Every summer we've got a handful of interns who would be perfect for the job.

(Just don't leave an electronic trail back to me, please.  Two lights in the tower of that church behind the fourth green at Stonewall North would be good.)

[Forrest Richardson]

Mike — Take Tom D. up on his offer...quickly, before he retracts!

You are right, the primary considerations will be driven by political and policy matters. That, combined with where to spend the "no funds available" budget will account for a lot of decisions. (I will avoid "interpretation" so not to be misunderstood.)

It will be great if Cobbs can be restored as simply as you describe. The trick is to manage all (literally hundreds) of the considerations, and all (probably several) of the stakeholders — together with the "silent players", such as the pre-1960s irrigation system, soils, and new golfer types — into a win-win for everybody. It will also be important to make it last. Not a whole lot worse than an effort which falls short on quality and has little hope of enduring.

I do share the optimism that it is ripe for the work — unfortunately we have all caught the golf business in one of its worst eras. For every course such as Cobbs there are several being shelved, or at least being ignored until things get back on track.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike:

Let me know if you need some stealth chain saw work.  Every summer we've got a handful of interns who would be perfect for the job.

(Just don't leave an electronic trail back to me, please.  Two lights in the tower of that church behind the fourth green at Stonewall North would be good.)

Tom,

If you know of any invading forces who might want to stealthily sneak into Philadelphia in the dead of night with the goal of deforestation and pillaging I'll be up in the tower lighting the lantern.   

One blink if the coast is clear...Two if there are snarly bureaucrats about. 

Mike — Take Tom D. up on his offer...quickly, before he retracts!

You are right, the primary considerations will be driven by political and policy matters. That, combined with where to spend the "no funds available" budget will account for a lot of decisions. (I will avoid "interpretation" so not to be misunderstood.)

It will be great if Cobbs can be restored as simply as you describe. The trick is to manage all (literally hundreds) of the considerations, and all (probably several) of the stakeholders — together with the "silent players", such as the pre-1960s irrigation system, soils, and new golfer types — into a win-win for everybody. It will also be important to make it last. Not a whole lot worse than an effort which falls short on quality and has little hope of enduring.

I do share the optimism that it is ripe for the work — unfortunately we have all caught the golf business in one of its worst eras. For every course such as Cobbs there are several being shelved, or at least being ignored until things get back on track.

Forrest,

Oh yes, I'm not trying to oversimplify the myriad of issues and layers that need to be overcome or minimized or convinced to make anything happen.

I'm just saying that in comparison, and by virtue of how little has changed over time (likely because of the lack of money issues), the golf course is almost the easy part! 

[TEPaul]

"(Just don't leave an electronic trail back to me, please.  Two lights in the tower of that church behind the fourth green at Stonewall North would be good.)"

TomD:

Don't you worry about that. And we certainly won't leave two lights on in the tower of that church behind the fourth green at Stonewall North or you may find some of those Neo-Nazis and Skinheads out of Morgantown after your ass!

All I need to know is what the world's biggest and most efficient tree clearing piece of equipment is. From some of the stuff I've heard about I figure I could fire it up make about 50 passes through those woods and have everything buttoned up in an hour or two. All I need to do is knock them down. Some other peons can clear the debris out some other time.

If I started about 1am I think it could all be done by 3am. If I get caught I'll just show them my ID that says I'm Forrest Richardson from California and if we from around here don't get caught in the act but the cops grill us later we'll all corroborate that this was probably the work of Forrest Richardson from California anyway. I'll tell Philadelphia's Finest that I know Forrest Richardson and that he's a good guy and very funny guy but that a few years ago I could detect that he had all the earmarks and symptoms of a serial tree murderer on a massive scale. I might even venture to add that I think psychologically it might be his mother's fault or maybe even his grandmother's fault.

[Forrest Richardson]

You wouldn't dare !

[TEPaul]

"You wouldn't dare !"




Forrest:

Oh wouldn't I?

Have I never shown you my ID with my photo and your particulars? Well next time, then. I consider the whole thing when taken in its ToTo to be extremely flattering.

It has never occured to me until this very moment, Mr Richardson, that your thinly veiled antipathy for trees and your secret desire to massively massacre them all on golf courses probably has something to do with some pre-pubescent inablility to compeletly come to grips with your first name!   

Something tells me at some point along your maturation history you convinced yourself you would prefer to be named Links Richardson rather than Forrest Richardson, and perhaps for convoluted reasons to do with that you've taken it out in your attitude towards trees on golf courses.

Come on, you can admit it. At least you should feel comfortable discussing it with us on here as you are always amongst friends and birds-of-a-feather on here.

You don't have deep-seated antipathy for birds and secretly want to massively massacre them do you?



PS:
By the way, Mr Links Richardson, I have the drawing of Oakmont by Arthur Jack Snyder, 1939 hanging prominently over the window next to the front door of my barn office which doubles as the HQs for World Conceptual Architecture. And I thank you kindly again for giving it to me as you did at Oakmont. I'm sorry to say it seems Jack's 1939 drawing of Oakmont appears to have perhaps 20-30 trees on the course. Perhaps you might want to consider that your mentor deceived you and consequently ameliorate your murderous thoughts about trees on golf courses.

[Forrest Richardson]

Those trees at Oakmont were likely planted by Fownes and Arthur Snyder (working for Loeffler)...seems back then people actually enjoyed shade next to tees! Have you ever seen the 1924 Oakmont aerial that hangs in the CH ?  Trees, trees, trees!

[TEPaul]

"Have you ever seen the 1924 Oakmont aerial that hangs in the CH ?  Trees, trees, trees!"


Forrest:

Are you absolutely sure you would rather not be referred to henceforth as Links?

Yes I have seen the 1924 aerial that hangs in the Oakmont CH. Much more remarkable, about 3-4 years ago Wayne and I found a dozen aerials in the Benjamin Franklin Library in Philadelphia (of all places) ON GLASS of Oakmont from that time that the club had never seen before. The most extraordinary thing of all is they were all labeled as "Gulph Mills GC" that is my own course in Philadelphia. It took us over an hour to figure out they were Oakmont. 

[Joe Bausch]

Mike and I took a trip down to Cobb's on Sunday to see how some of the course improvement projects are coming along.  Specifically, they are the following:

1.  Rebuilding of the 3rd green.  This green has been rebuilt more than once and the last time it was done, necessitated after being flooded out maybe 6 or 7 years ago, the chatter was an incorrect mix was used for the base and as a result it did not drain properly and never became healthy as a result.

2.  Recovering  the tee for the par 3 6th.  I don't have pics of this, but it is across the creek, back where it was say 10 years or so ago.  It has not been sodded as of last Sunday, but it will be soon I think.  It appears to be much larger than previously.

3.  Redoing the four bunkers surrounding the green on the par 3 17th.

Here are five pictures of the new 3rd green, which is considerably larger than previously.  I believe last iteration it was a tad over 3000 sq ft, now it is over 5000.  This was just recently sodded.











Here is the bunker work in progress on the 17th:

[Joel_Stewart]

Without going through all 35 pages of this thread, who is doing this work and who is paying for it?  I thought this was still in the planning process?

[Mike_Cirba]

Joel/All,

While we are VERY encouraged that these capital improvements are presently being made to Cobb's Creek, I think it's very important to point out that this is a separate initiative of the management company, Billy Casper Golf, and has nothing to do with the ongoing restoration efforts our group has been encouraging.

Nevertheless, I'd concur with Joe that the work looks very good, very promising, and consistent with the original architecture (they are using many of the old maps and pictures viewable on this thread), and we're thrilled to see this long-neglected, historic course getting some proper TLC, at last.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I hope the new green on 3 holds up. It's a good par4 short hole slightly similar to the famous 11th at Merion East. Both are fronted by Cobbs Creek.

The 17th green sure looks good now. Those bunkers make this hole one of my favorite par3s in the area.

Is there any work being done on 17 tee?

[Joel_Stewart]

I'd keep your eye on the shape, style and slope of the bunkers on #17.

[Joe Bausch]

Is there any work being done on 17 tee?

Not currently.

[Mike_Cirba]

Feeling the need to put something positive on this board.

A few weeks ago, a group of us had a very frank and full discussion about possible future possibilitie for the Cobb's Creek Golf Course with the new management company, Billy Casper Golf.

While not agreeing on every item, the meeting at least set parameters for future discussion and areas of potential exploration.

From our perspective, this was one of the first steps on a promising journey, and one where we gained a much greater understanding of the art of the possible.

[John_Cullum]

Has the Billy Casper group taken over management of Cobbs Creek, or is it just under consideration by them?

[Mike_Cirba]

Has the Billy Casper group taken over management of Cobbs Creek, or is it just under consideration by them?

John,

They signed a long-term management deal with the city of Philadelphia earlier this year. 

[Mike_Cirba]

Today, in an effort to bring all of the positive, mystical, and ethereal forces into some type of alignment with whatever the miraculous magic is happening on the west coast of Scotland, Jenna and I drove down across from Cobb's Creek and ate dinner at the place where as close as we could figure Joe Coble worked as a waiter, which today is coincidentally a Vietnamese Restaurant right near one of Indiana Joe(nes) favorite Mexican places.   We considered it a very good sign that they had a Pho with a very deep, rich, broth not needing much in the way of accoutrements.

From there we back up Route 3 to Darby Road, turning right down Ardmore Avenue where the Merion Golf Club glistened in twilight, long-grassed, golden sheaves heaving back and forth on the bunker faces.

Turning up Golf House Road, we were amazed by how closely both the 14th and 15th greens were to our automotive boundary, and I silently thanked Richard Francis for his late-night idea and thanked the golf gods for the amazing history of this amazing game, where a 60-year old man is miraculously leading the Open Championship of the world heading into what I fear will be a day of heartbreak but which also promises the possbility of becoming the most miraculous day in the history of sport.

We too quickly came to the end of our drive, and spent a inspiring, summer evening watching an outdoor concert in Bryn Mawr on a night that simply made one glad to be alive.  

Memories of the brilliant past, dreams of the promises of the future...

Never have both been more closely tied and indistinguishable for me than on this summer eve, transfixed on events an ocean away.

On a thread which has had it's share of magic, I offer these thoughts simply as a hopeful prayer.