[Mike_Cirba]

Kyle,

I'll respond more later but the first correction I'd make to your post is your assertion that the rounds are falling off due to decreased conditioning over the past decade.

I played Cobb's Creek back in the mid-80s and through much of the 90s and it is in much better shape now than then, particularly the greens.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

I'll respond more later but the first correction I'd make to your post is your assertion that the rounds are falling off due to decreased conditioning over the past decade.

I played Cobb's Creek back in the mid-80s and through much of the 90s and it is in much better shape now than then, particularly the greens.

I think it's a question of competition. What was around in your era to compete with Cobb's? The Philadelphia golfer now has MANY options in the public arena - and much more than during that era.

Improvements to Paxon Hollow, Jeffersonville and new additions like Lederach and Makefield Highlands are all significant upgrades from Cobb's Creek - they're easier to access from the suburbs and in many cases, are a better bargain both in time and cost.

[Mike_Cirba]

I think it's a question of competition. What was around in your era to compete with Cobb's? The Philadelphia golfer now has MANY options in the public arena - and much more than during that era.

Improvements to Paxon Hollow, Jeffersonville and new additions like Lederach and Makefield Highlands are all significant upgrades from Cobb's Creek - they're easier to access from the suburbs and in many cases, are a better bargain both in time and cost.

Kyle,

I really don't see Lederach and Makefield Highlands as being competition for Cobb's Creek type golfers.   Both are relatively high-end public courses well out in the burbs  (33 miles and 37 miles and 46 minutes/53 minutes drive time, respectively) and I don't see city-dwellers and golfers in the near burbs making those trips on a regular basis.

Other affordable public courses closer to the city have gone extinct during those years, such as Valley Forge, Upper Perk, Malvern, and Montgomeryville.

Other public courses like Hartefeld National and Spring Mill went private.   

Of course, Paxon Hollow and Jeffersonville were there since the 20s, so other than one big change, I'm not sure why they are considered a factor?  Hmmmm...

Could it be that one of those courses burst into prominence and national attention and increased their play in recent years because they leveraged their architectural history and did a well-publicized, well-received RESTORATION?!?!? 

Now, there's a novel idea!!!   

   

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,

Both organizations also made a commitment to raising the standard of upkeep as well. It is interesting to use those models as a template, sure - but the restoration only worked with the raised maintenance standard.

Furthermore, both restorations were far more drastic than anything at Cobb's. Yes, I know the routing would be changed... but bunkers? Greens? Think of how GOOD Cobb's Creek would be with just the run of the mill Jeffersonville day...

The point is, Paxon and Jeffersonville were on a much more stable footing going into their restoration.

Montgomeryville is now PineCrest, and is still QUITE affordable.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

Both organizations also made a commitment to raising the standard of upkeep as well. It is interesting to use those models as a template, sure - but the restoration only worked with the raised maintenance standard.

Furthermore, both restorations were far more drastic than anything at Cobb's. Yes, I know the routing would be changed... but bunkers? Greens? Think of how GOOD Cobb's Creek would be with just the run of the mill Jeffersonville day...

The point is, Paxon and Jeffersonville were on a much more stable footing going into their restoration.

Kyle,

I'm not sure I understand your point.   I'm not arguing that upgraded conditioning shouldn't be part of a restoration strategy...clearly it's needed, but first I would want to know if I was designing a new drainage and irrigation system for a GREAT, fully-restored, historically accurate course on 110 acres or a GOOD but highly marginalized, architecturally truncated one on 90 acres. 

I would argue about the previous footing of Jeffersonville...it was run down in much the same conditioning as Cobb's Creek when I first played there back in the 1980s, pre-restoration.   

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,

Both organizations also made a commitment to raising the standard of upkeep as well. It is interesting to use those models as a template, sure - but the restoration only worked with the raised maintenance standard.

Furthermore, both restorations were far more drastic than anything at Cobb's. Yes, I know the routing would be changed... but bunkers? Greens? Think of how GOOD Cobb's Creek would be with just the run of the mill Jeffersonville day...

The point is, Paxon and Jeffersonville were on a much more stable footing going into their restoration.

Kyle,

I'm not sure I understand your point.   I'm not arguing that upgraded conditioning shouldn't be part of a restoration strategy...clearly it's needed, but first I would want to know if I was designing a new drainage and irrigation system for a GREAT, fully-restored, historically accurate course on 110 acres or a GOOD but highly marginalized, architecturally truncated one on 90 acres. 

I would argue about the previous footing of Jeffersonville...it was run down in much the same conditioning as Cobb's Creek when I first played there back in the 1980s, pre-restoration.   

And in the 20 years between? It was in Five Ponds level shape when I first played it in 1999. Would you say the organization wasn't stronger as the one backing Cobb's?

I'm not convinced on the need for an irrigation system, nor that an upgraded "system" is what is needed to improve conditioning - keep in mind where I work and what we have you can see where I'm coming from. Let's talk about that sometime.

Highly-marginalized is extreme hyperbole. And irrigation isn't THAT complex.

[mike_malone]

Kyle,

  I believe the older routing challenges golfers more than the present one does. I think this is appropriate since Cobbs is the crown jewel of Philly city golf. #6 would be much more challenging than the current #16. The blind tee shot and the longer hole combine to make the approach shot much more fun than the current short one. The old #9 would create a diagonal tee shot and not lose the appeal of the present approach. The old #10 would be a much more interesting par three than #8. It is longer with a more interesting contour near the green. As much as I love #15 today, I would be much more challenged by the old hole as a demanding par 5.

 I think the present back and forth routing pales in comparison to the original's variety.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

  I believe the older routing challenges golfers more than the present one does. I think this is appropriate since Cobbs is the crown jewel of Philly city golf. #6 would be much more challenging than the current #16. The blind tee shot and the longer hole combine to make the approach shot much more fun than the current short one. The old #9 would create a diagonal tee shot and not lose the appeal of the present approach. The old #10 would be a much more interesting par three than #8. It is longer with a more interesting contour near the green. As much as I love #15 today, I would be much more challenged by the old hole as a demanding par 5.

 I think the present back and forth routing pales in comparison to the original's variety.

Mike,

I'm on record as saying that the original 10th, 11th, 12th, and 13th are VASTLY superior to the current iterations and that alone makes the original routing better. I would not move back the current 9th tee at all. Diagonal tee shot to what? The old tee is directly behind the current one. The current tee is WAY more tempting, brings the hillside into the question off the tee and forces good club selection. It also gives the shorter hitter two holes in which to gain on a longer hitter through wily play.

The uphill tee shot on the old 6th has the risk of becoming an almost gimmick. Should it be restored? Darn tootin' but to say it's a vastly superior hole than the current 16th is to neglect the fact that the current 16th is a tempting little devil at its present yardage. The old hole does not put the runoff in the approach in play off the tee and makes it a carry hazard for the approach instead of one that influences club selection.

Mike's description of the merits of current 16th is lacking for the sake of highlighting the original 6th's merits, IMO - it's a fine hole today.

[Mike_Cirba]

I'm not convinced on the need for an irrigation system, nor that an upgraded "system" is what is needed to improve conditioning - keep in mind where I work and what we have you can see where I'm coming from. Let's talk about that sometime.

Highly-marginalized is extreme hyperbole. And irrigation isn't THAT complex.

No, I don't think "highly marginalized" is extreme hyperbole at all.

Today's 6th hole is a very poor one, with a tree overhanging because the tee was abandoned so you now tee off from the wrong side of the creek bringing the tree into play.   With a shot of about 115 yards, you have to think about skulling it so that you don't catch the branches.   The fact that it was the famous 12th island hole originally makes its current state all the more lamentable.

Today's 7th is awkward, with a tee ledged into a hill at a diagonal, and is nowhere near as dramatic as the original 9th where the tee shot dropped 70 feet into the valley before playing the pitch back uphill 30 feet to a wonderful hilltop green meant to be approached from that angle.

Today's 15th is half the width of the original, which would have been a dramatic, gambling par five with a green falling away sharply on the right, almost akin to Pine Valley's 15th in style, with an ability to take the high-road or low-road for the rest of us.   Today's 15th that mostly plays driver, 9-iron is not just a pale version of the hole...it's a mere ghost of what it was.

Today's 16th is dumb...a 4-iron layup followed by a short pitch at 275 yards, or an attempt to drive a green you can't see tucked behind trees (that weren't there on the right originally as it was all turf out to the 17th tee).    The original 6th hole was written up by Joe Dey as one of the best 18 holes in Philadelphia.

Today's 14th is an awful hole...615 yards of boring, stringbean straight golf with no strategy, awkwardly placed, and with a green tilted to received a shot from where it was originally intended...from today's 8th hole tee box as a 200+ par three with a very cool false-front of a green.

And that 8th green....that used to be the par five 13th's....perhaps you can weigh in there as it looked so good that you had to go ahead and try to play it through the closed driving range the other day.  

"Highly marginalized" is a nice, polite, understated way of saying that the original course was vastly superior.

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,

Agree re: all but today's 7th and 16th. The 7th is a fine Par 4.5, it forces you to play that original centerline and shape a shot to get there. You're then to decide to attempt the green with a longer club, running one up the right side and avoiding the left, or laying up into the old landing zone and playing from there. The tee could be rebuilt. The strategy is sound, and it's a better hole than your Fazio-like description of the old 9th. Also, it offers a compelling half-par hole that Cobb's does not have. Place the hole at Huntingdon Valley, or even *gasp* Merion, and it fits nicely.

As for the 16th. The thing the present tee does is put the ravine in play off the tee. It requires a shaped shot, a good approach, and two good putts. It makes the golf commit to a strategy and execute. It's much more subtle than the balls to wall old 6th. Furthermore, that ravine suddenly goes from strategic hazard to penal with the old hole. How's your success been on the hole?

The old 13th would be an awesome hole and has me convinced the current 8th is the worst of the new holes by some margin. Even the 14th hole has length going for it.

Also, when have you EVER hit Driver-9 iron into a 447 yard uphill hole like the 15th?

[mike_malone]

Kyle,

  The old #9 was the current #7. The old tee shot was from the present # 14 tee, thus the diagonal. It reminds me of a Flynn like hole.

[Mike_Cirba]

Kyle,

I haven't seen the tee on 15 back at 447 yards since around 1990.   Every time I've played there in recent years it's playing wayyyyy up at about 380.  

Have you seen tee markers back there in recent years?

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

  The old #9 was the current #7. The old tee shot was from the present # 14 tee, thus the diagonal. It reminds me of a Flynn like hole.

Whoops. I thought you meant the hole along City Ave, which is today's 9th and the old 14th.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

I haven't seen the tee on 15 back at 447 yards since around 1990.   Every time I've played there in recent years it's playing wayyyyy up at about 380.  

Have you seen tee markers back there in recent years?

When I first played it in 2004, we played it from that back tee - it was Driver, 5-iron for me at that point. I remember needing two VERY good shots to get there. That back tee still exists though - so it's not the fault of the current architecture if the tees are never put back there. In fact, they're probably not put there for a reason...

[mike_malone]

 Kyle,

  Perhaps you are hanging out with Tom Paul too much!

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

  Perhaps you are hanging out with Tom Paul too much!

I think it's the people we visit, and especially their golf clubs.

BTW, I VERY much enjoyed that day last week. Thanks again for taking us around and your arguments are compelling and I am inclined to agree on the one hole in question.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

I'm just glad to see people talking about Cobb's again.   

[Sean_A]

I haven't followed this thread at all so I have to ask if this entire restoration project is a pipe dream or a real possibility.  If its a possibility (even partially) then for a public course the decisions will necessarily centre around getting people to pay the green fee.  Would a restoration to the old routing, a conditioning upgrade or a combination of both either partially or in full best serve to get the cash registers making noise? 

Ciao

[Kyle Harris]

I haven't followed this thread at all so I have to ask if this entire restoration project is a pipe dream or a real possibility.  If its a possibility (even partially) then for a public course the decisions will necessarily centre around getting people to pay the green fee.  Would a restoration to the old routing, a conditioning upgrade or a combination of both either partially or in full best serve to get the cash registers making noise? 

Ciao

Sean,

I think one of the roadblocks to the whole thing is that the cash registers are already making noise. I'm not sure where Mike got his numbers or what they represent in terms of Karakung/Olde distribution, but all accounts I've heard have the place being booked from Friday through Sunday with some play during the week. I think the obvious decision in regard to fee structure is to offer a significant discount to Philadelphia residents and a higher fee for non-Philadelphia residents. Though I wonder what is the actual distribution of golfers from Philadelphia and from the suburbs.

Something is bound to happen with the Billy Casper Group taking over. I've yet to play a facility they've owned that hasn't been reasonable conditioned. I'd like to see how the current course takes to an upgrade in conditioning before any restoration efforts are made.

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

Listen, that stagger of aerials is somewhat helpful to me but as you know I'm not as familiar with that general area as you are. On the other hand, I'm a very creative "win/win" thinker type of guy, as you know, and we all know this particular project has an unusual number of factors and participants and so some additional creativity is probably called for at this point.

[Kyle Harris]

MikeC:

Listen, that stagger of aerials is somewhat helpful to me but as you know I'm not as familiar with that general area as you are. On the other hand, I'm a very creative "win/win" thinker type of guy, as you know, and we all know this particular project has an unusual number of factors and participants and so some additional creativity is probably called for at this point.

Do you remember that incredible "MOVE" incident about 20-25 years ago when the city government for some semi-inexplicable reason dropped an incendiary bomb in a Philadelphia neighborhood during their ongoing eviction dispute with the so-called Symbionese Liberation Army and their HQ?

Find me a contiguous neighborhood to Cobbs and I'll try to arrange with the city to do a virtual rerun of that interesting event and that might cop us enough land for 3-4 restored holes.

Leave the timing to me too; I'm very good at that. We'll wait for a really high news period and then attack unexpectedly and hopefully the whole thing won't make it beyond about the 6th or 7th page of the newspapers.

If that doesn't work for you for some odd reason it'll be no problem at all for me to develop a wholly different "Plan B."

You want to bomb a former Nike site?!

Think of McCall Field, Man!

[TEPaul]

"You want to bomb a former Nike site?!"


Well, why the hell not? Haven't you heard that Home Land Security believes some local illegal alien members of Al Queda have been seen in there trying to stash some weapons of mass destruction (WMDs)?

[Mike_Cirba]

I haven't followed this thread at all so I have to ask if this entire restoration project is a pipe dream or a real possibility.  If its a possibility (even partially) then for a public course the decisions will necessarily centre around getting people to pay the green fee.  Would a restoration to the old routing, a conditioning upgrade or a combination of both either partially or in full best serve to get the cash registers making noise? 

Ciao

Sean,

I think one of the roadblocks to the whole thing is that the cash registers are already making noise. I'm not sure where Mike got his numbers or what they represent in terms of Karakung/Olde distribution, but all accounts I've heard have the place being booked from Friday through Sunday with some play during the week. I think the obvious decision in regard to fee structure is to offer a significant discount to Philadelphia residents and a higher fee for non-Philadelphia residents. Though I wonder what is the actual distribution of golfers from Philadelphia and from the suburbs.

Something is bound to happen with the Billy Casper Group taking over. I've yet to play a facility they've owned that hasn't been reasonable conditioned. I'd like to see how the current course takes to an upgrade in conditioning before any restoration efforts are made.

Sean,

In today's economy, who knows what will happen if things get worse from a jobs standpoint.   However, I will say this.   

Cobb's Creek is the most historically significant public golf course in the United States from an architectural, sociological, and competitive standpoint, with the possible exception of Bethpage Black.  The fact that it's setting is DIRECTLY in a large urban area with large minority populations could be a huge asset.
.   
A well-done, highly publicized, strategic plan for the property that included historic restoration of the work of Hugh Wilson, George Crump, and others would certainly increase market share, and if done correctly would increase market share dramatically while building the next generation of customers.


Kyle,

"I'd like to see how the current course takes to an upgrade in conditioning before any restoration efforts are made."

I'm astounded at this statement.   

Without a fundamental paradigm and perception shift in how the entire property of Cobb's Creek is  viewed within the city, within the immediate and adjacent 'burbs, and within the country as a whole (for visitors to the city), you'll continue to "see" more of the continual slow drip and erosion of play that has led to a net 45% reduction in rounds played at Cobb's Creek between 2000 and 2007, conditioning improvement or not.

Tell me what is wrong with the greens today that is causing that type of reduction.

By contrast, FDR, which is frankly a very poorly conditioned and poorly architected course, has seen a 5% increase over the same timeframe through creative programs like First Tee that have driven new players to the course.

But the others?

John Byrne - -43%
Walnut Lane - -26%
Juniata - -54%

My numbers are from the city of Philadelphia Fairmount Park Commission. 

Your claim that the cash registers are already making noise is not supported by the facts, although I'm betting that there has been a bit of a bump at Cobb's in 2008 due to some of the publiclity that's been generated.

However, that excitement and enthusiasm is going to be very short-lived and lead to further short and long term erosion if something fundamentally excitijng and bold that is worthy of the heritage and history of Philadelphia golf and well-integrated with the needs of the community and future of golf in the area isn't done.

Frankly, they could grow better grass and it would be the tree falling in the forest that no one will hear because that isn't the issue here, nor does it even begin to speak to the potential of this historic property that includes 2 eighteen hole golf courses, and 2 driving ranges.

The creative possibilities for limited initial investment are huge.    I'm surprised you can't see that.

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,

You're thinking in very short and mid length terms, here. What happens once the excitement wears off? What happens if expected returns are not met?

Have you spoken with the superintendent at Cobb's?
Are you aware of how prepared the golf course is for the worst of the warm season?
Are you aware of how much luck is involved with the conditioning of the course in July and August?
Are you aware of any specific problems with the irrigation system that cannot be addressed with a simple fix?
Are you aware of the labor and other costs associated with each?

This is ultimately going to turn into a cost/benefit analysis. You're looking at the benefit side, I'm looking at the cost side. Regardless of the downturn in play - how were costs cut during that period? What's the correlation? Did cutting costs lead to a downturn in play or did a downturn in play lead to a cut in costs?

What explains the drastic drop in play at the city courses in 2002?

What Cobb's Creek (and Walnut Lane) needs is a very steady 5 year plan.

-Develop sound agronomic practices that best utilize today's golf course features.
-Develop an environment that is a destination job for a superintendent and professional, a revolving door at the helm will not work.
-Develop a steady base of golfers dedicated to seeing Cobb's Creek improve (being done by the efforts of yourself and Joe)
-Attract local tournaments
-Deal with creek flooding and maintenance issues
-Restore the original routing as best as possible, potentially including the old 13th hole.

In this economy, to me, this is best way to get a wholesale restoration off the ground. Without a USGA or other large endowment providing for a massive overhaul in both the golf course and management, this needs to be a slow, steady project with a sure hand at the helm and a long-term vision.

Mike, we're looking at the same destination - you want to go straight up the mountain where I want to slowly switchback my way.

I think a *GREAT* start would be to rebuild/re-level some of the tee boxes - including the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th, 12th, 15th, and restore the original 17th. This is a goal that can be achieved over the course of a season and be completed by this time next year. From there, look to the next project and move ahead. By then, it may full well be possible to take on even more projects. We can even throw in a little "nursery" tee box behind the current 6th green.... if you catch my drift.

[Sean_A]

I haven't followed this thread at all so I have to ask if this entire restoration project is a pipe dream or a real possibility.  If its a possibility (even partially) then for a public course the decisions will necessarily centre around getting people to pay the green fee.  Would a restoration to the old routing, a conditioning upgrade or a combination of both either partially or in full best serve to get the cash registers making noise? 

Ciao

Sean,

I think one of the roadblocks to the whole thing is that the cash registers are already making noise. I'm not sure where Mike got his numbers or what they represent in terms of Karakung/Olde distribution, but all accounts I've heard have the place being booked from Friday through Sunday with some play during the week. I think the obvious decision in regard to fee structure is to offer a significant discount to Philadelphia residents and a higher fee for non-Philadelphia residents. Though I wonder what is the actual distribution of golfers from Philadelphia and from the suburbs.

Something is bound to happen with the Billy Casper Group taking over. I've yet to play a facility they've owned that hasn't been reasonable conditioned. I'd like to see how the current course takes to an upgrade in conditioning before any restoration efforts are made.

Sean,

In today's economy, who knows what will happen if things get worse from a jobs standpoint.   However, I will say this.   

Cobb's Creek is the most historically significant public golf course in the United States from an architectural, sociological, and competitive standpoint, with the possible exception of Bethpage Black.  The fact that it's setting is DIRECTLY in a large urban area with large minority populations could be a huge asset.
.   
A well-done, highly publicized, strategic plan for the property that included historic restoration of the work of Hugh Wilson, George Crump, and others would certainly increase market share, and if done correctly would increase market share dramatically while building the next generation of customers.

Mike

Wow!  Those claims are quite something!  Personally, I ain't buying the most historically.... business with Pebble and Pinehurst about.  Remember, many large cities have their own tale to tell concerning the history of public courses so I wouldn't get carried away because of a Crump-Wilson pedigree. 

So far as the restoration is concerned, do you have any data to back up the claim that a restoration would increase market share?

I am not trying to drag you down, but perhaps you are displaying some Philly and Crump-Wilson bias in your claims.   

Ciao

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()