[TEPaul]

Mike:

Keep the word processor on and ready to go. Before this is over we might have to give Harry Colt most of the credit for Cobbs Creek. Or if that West Coast Moriarty gets into some digitized train records we may have to give some very strong influence attribution to Macdonald, Raynor and Whigam too. Keep this thing going and it'll top Pine Valley for the greatest amount of collaboration golf course architecture has ever known.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe:

I'd doubt that Hugh Wilson could've had much to do with that course mentioned in that article as poor Hugh only had about five months to go at that point until the day he said he felt like a boiled owl.

Interesting term. I have absolutely no idea what a boiled owl feels like. Do you?

It might be something like how I feel after looking at microfilm for 4 hours.  

I've got a 1905 article talking about Wilson's wedding if you're interested.  

I'm tellin' ya', we need a group to go to the Urban Archives and go through the golf articles.  One of the interns let me go back in the archives (he sort of got in trouble for this) and it is amazing.  Many funny little file cabinets containing envelopes of clippings.  Each drawer is double-wide and about 3 feet deep (sort of like an old card catalog drawer).  There are six or seven of these drawers of hundreds of envelopes sorted alphabetically by golf topics which much have thousands of articles.  The intern said he can't let me back there again, but he is willing to slide out the drawers and bring them out to the public tables.  If we could get 7 or 8 of us down there at the same time we could probably beat through them in maybe a long morning.

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

We absolutely want to hear about Wilson's wedding.   We also should think about planning something to go thru those files...they sound pretty awesome.

Tom Paul,

There are apparently more architects involved with Cobb's Creek than Gulph Mills.  

[Kyle Harris]

Joe,

We absolutely want to hear about Wilson's wedding.   We also should think about planning something to go thru those files...they sound pretty awesome.

Tom Paul,

There are apparently more architects involved with Cobb's Creek than Gulph Mills.  

But how many did actual architecture?  

[Mike_Cirba]

But how many did actual architecture?  

All of them to some extent, apparently.

Any time I hear the term  "lay out", or "helped to lay out", or "laid out", or whatever...maybe it's just me but I can't help but think "architecture".  

[Kyle Harris]

But how many did actual architecture?  

All of them to some extent, apparently.

Any time I hear the term  "lay out", or "helped to lay out", or "laid out", or whatever...maybe it's just me but I can't help but think "architecture".  

Frank James "laid out" plenty of Donald Ross courses... That term is a thorn in my side and always has been, especially in conjunction with the word "help," maybe Meehan just had access to some really good ganja or a particularly fresh brand of bourbon that helped Wilson "lay out" Cobb's...  

I wonder who Tillinghast's distiller was, he must have put those kids through college.

[Mike_Cirba]

Frank James "laid out" plenty of Donald Ross courses...

Kyle,

That's simply because in most of those cases, Donald Ross wasn't there onsite, and some cases, he never was.

ALL of these guys were there, which is much different.

They were all local guys, with the exception of Travis.

John Franklin Meehan (aka J. Franklin Meehan, Frank Meehan)was a nationally known landscape architect and city planner.   He also started two private clubs, North Hills CC where it is known he worked directly with Hugh Wilson and Ab Smith on the design efforts, and Sandy Run CC.

Tillinghast wrote about his respect for Meehan's great knowledge of turf grasses.   Could this be what he was doing up at Schuylkill CC?

He designed courses from 1907 through the early 30s.  I don't have all the dates in front of me right now, but I do have his courses...at least those I know about.

He resume includes;

North Hills CC (first nine in 1907, then another 18 on another site in 1913, then significant changes and refinements with Wilson and Smith in the teens)

LuLu CC (first nine holes along with Warren Webb)

Sandy Run CC

Ashbourne CC

Spring-Ford CC

Paxon Hollow GC (fka White Manor CC) (with Francis Warner)

Berwick CC

Brookside CC (Allentown)

Yama Farms (Ellenville, NY) 1931 (NLE)

Forest Hills CC (Tampa FL) (nka Babe Zaharias GC) 1925


He was also known as the "Father of Junior Golf" in Philadelphia, and he was responsible for creating the Junior Golf Tournaments under the Golf Association of Philadelphia.

It's no surprise at all that he'd be heavily involved, actually.

[Kyle Harris]

I'm not surprised Meehan was there either, to be honest. But we've gone from "helped lay out" to "heavily involved" in about half dozen posts. This is turning into religious interpretation in terms of translation of meaning. Let's let the articles speak for themselves. Meehan helped lay out Cobb's with Wilson and Ab Smith as per the article. Chronologically, so far, this is the first mention of Meehan in relation to Cobb's and it's almost 7 years after the course opened. I stated back in November that research would probably turn up a sort of "who's who" of Philadelphia golf at the time and I still worry that this is a sort of "these guys too" media campaign as opposed to true nuts and bolts architectural contributions. At what point do we differentiate turf consultations with architecture? Does every superintendent in the country deserve an architectural attribution at their respective courses as a result?

[absurd]Does the guy sweeping the floor at Falling Water get listed with Frank Lloyd Wright?[/absurd]

Babe Zaharias in Tampa!? They advertise that as a Ross... that's 5 miles from me and I need to get over there now. I've driven past and it's on some pretty neat property. Tampa's golf courses are interesting as most are along or near the winding Hillsborough River on some startlingly severe terrain for Florida. Temple Terrace CC (Fowler) is another prime example.  

[Mike_Cirba]

The Babe Zaharias Golf Course derives its primary significance from its association with Babe Didrikson
Zaharias, a champion athlete known for her prominence in golf and other sports. Among her many
accomplishments, Babe's participation is credited as an instrumental factor in the founding of the (LPGA)
Ladies Professional Golf Association. Babe and her husband George Zaharias were owners of this golf course
from 1949 to 1955.
The Babe Zaharias Golf Course also has significance for its relationship to the unique aspect of community
development whereby a public facility is used as the focal point for the simultaneous development of
surrounding residential buildings, with reinforcement of that relationship demonstrated by continuity of style.
Regardless of the loss of the original clubhouse, the qualities of English Landscape design are employed in site
development of the course and have not been significantly altered over the years. Furthermore, the purchase of
the golf course and subsequent relocation to the neighborhood by sport celebrities Babe and George Zaharias,
launched an intense period of building and development in the neighborhood augmented by the post-war
housing boom.
During the height of the Florida land boom of the 1920s, developers were building all over the Tampa Bay area,
including planned communities from Davis Islands in south Tampa to Forest Hills in north Tampa. Two
brothers, William E. and Burks L. Hamner from Valrico, saw opportunity for financial growth in real estate as
did many others. William had extensive holdings in the Forest Hills area with his brother Burks. The
community of Forest Hills, including the Forest Hills Country Club and golf course was developed and built by
the Hamner organization. The organization, B. L. Hamner & Associates started in 1920 when Burks joined with
D. C. Gillett to start up Temple Terrace and included a variety of functions such as B. L. Hamner Realty
Company. Gillett had been running Buckeye Orange Growers Corp as well as Buckeye Nursery.8 According to
the 1920 City Directory, Burks was listed as a farmer, but by 1922 he had changed professions and was vice
president of the Florida Finance Corporation. In 1924 B. L. Hamner Realty began, with Burks Hamner
partnering with Ira C. Humphrey and H. C. Flaherty.9 In 1925, B.L. Hamner Realty purchased over 2000 acres
from 40 individuals in order to “create a community of homes owned by folks whose lives would be rich with
healthful happiness.”10 Burks Hamner brought in J. Franklin Meehan well-known landscape designer and city
planner from Philadelphia to design the golf course. He was given “free range to design the course in whatever
manner he chose, using whatever ground (he) desired for the links without respect to what might remain for the
development.” Joe Seka was engaged as the Professional at the Club.

btw, by "heavy involvement", I'm talking about the fact that he was apparently involved in the original work in 1916, and now here it is 8 years later and he's apparently planning the next public course(s) with Alan Corson, the Parks Engineer (who was also around with Jesse Vodges in 1916 as his assistant) and their mutual friends Hugh Wilson and Ab Smith, who both incidentally helped him with North Hills.

[Mike_Cirba]

Meehan's father Thomas came from England where he was classically trained in English Gardens.  He was also a famous naturalist and horticulturalist and landscape architect who designed the US Centennial Floral exhibit.

He also was on the board who advised the city in the creation of Fairmount Park.

His son J. Franklin was in a nursery, planning, and landscape architect business with his dad from the time he was in his late teens.

[Joe Bausch]

I think you'll like some of the names listed at the wedding!  I find it interesting that only Alan Wilson is mentioned in the wedding, but Wilson's obit (which I also have a copy of) mentions another brother Wayne that I've never heard before.

The 1905 'wedding clipping' I saw (October 17) wasn't in great shape, but here is what it said for the Wilson wedding:

MISS WARREN WEDDED TO MR. H. I. WILSON

SOCIETY FOLK ATTEND WEDDING IN DR. DANA'S CHURCH

MRS. GROVER CLEVELAND *******

Bride the Recipient of Many Gifts — Bridegroom Won Success on the Golf Links

     A wedding on interest to society took place at noon yesterday in the Walnut Street Presbyterian Church, when Miss Mary Warren, daughter of Mr. and Mrs. Frederic P. Warren, of 504 South Forty-first street, became the bride of Mr. Hugh Irwin Wilson, son of Mrs. William P. Wilson, of Rosemont.  The Rev. Dr. Stephen W. Dana, pastor of the church, performed the ceremony.  The bride, who was given away by her father, wore a gown of white chiffon cloth, with a Marie Antoinette bodice trimmed with princess lace, a flounce of the same forming a tablier on the skirt.

     The bridesmaids were Miss Dorothy Dickson, of Wilkesbarre; Miss Stella I. Warren, of Ocean City, and Miss Elizabeth Kline.  All were clad alike in white broadcloth frocks, with trimmings of heavy lace and large white velvet picture hats garnished with white plumes.  The carried bouquets of white chrysanthemums.

     Hope Wilson, the five-year-old niece of the bridegroom, attended the bride as flower girl, and looked particularly dainty in a white ninon from with trimmings of Mexican drawn work.  She carried a basket of pink chrysanthemums.  Miss Emma Warren, sister of the bride, the maid of honor, was gowned in white broadcloth with trimmings of heavy lace.  Her hat was a white velvet, adorned withh exquisitely shaded pink plumes.

     ****r Alan D. Wilson, brother of the ***degroom, supported him as best man, ** the ushers were Mr. H. Williamson **ell, of Summit, N. J.; Mr. Gresham H. Poe, of Baltimore; Mr. William W. Roper, of Lexington; Mr. William H. Robinson, of Pittsburg; Mr. Archibald S. Alexander, of New York; Mr. Andrew Gregg Curtin Breeze, of Downingtown; Mr. Frederick S. Dickinson, 2d, or New York; Mr. Charles H. Bradley, of Washington, and Mr. Clarence S. Kline and Mr. Kane S. Green, of this city.

     At the conclusion of the ceremony, a largely attended breakfast was given at the home of the bride.

     Among those present were Mrs. Grover Cleveland, Mrs. John S. Green, and the Misses Green, of Rosemont; Mr. and Mrs. D. Morgan Efler, of Wissahickon; Dr. and Mrs. Joseph De Silver, of Atlantic City; Miss ***** **** Brigham, of Long Island; Mr. and Mrs. R. E. Hastings, Mrs. Kane S. Green, Mrs. Harry Robb, Mrs. Joseph Grieben and the Misses Grieben, Mrs. Frederick Grieben, Mrs. Raeburn Smith, Mrs. F. N. Johnson, Miss Helen Schermerhorn, Miss Mary Parsons, Mrs. John L. Gill and the Misses Gill, and Mrs. Frederick Dixon.

     After their honeymoon trip Mr. and Mrs. Wilson will reside in Rosemont, at the home of the bridegroom's parents.

     The bride received many presents.

     Mr. Wilson, who is an insurance broker, graduated from Princeton with the class of 1902.  He was captain of the university golf team, and in the spring of 1902 won his match in the intercollegiate tourney held in Atlantic City.

     He is a member of the Merion Cricket and Merion Golf Clubs, and the Ivy Club and the for the last two years has been a member of the Princeton Club.

     

[Bill Hagel]

The weather is looking promising for some golf this weekend around Philly.  I might visit Cobb's again and am looking for any other takers.  

Joe

No can do.  I'll be in Vermont helping my sister move.  VERMONT for pete's sake - when it is supposed to be 50 and sunny on Sunday here.  ARrrrrrrrrggggg.

[TEPaul]

"Tom Paul,
There are apparently more architects involved with Cobb's Creek than Gulph Mills.    "


Mike:

Except the architects who came through GMGC were not exactly working in collaboration.

I may've mentioned it before but in my opinion a club and course like GMGC gets a bad rap for the seemingly unusual amount of architects who did work there over the years.

There is no question in my mind that probably 50 to 75% of the courses in America had as many but that is just not know because most clubs for whatever reasons did not keep the records of those kinds of things as GMGC did.

Consequently there was no way that Cornish & Whitten could've reported the truth of architectural involvement in most courses.

It was really not that much difference from what is going on now with Cobbs Creek's evolution. Do you think Cornish or Whitten were willing or able to spend the time researching libraries the way this group has in the last few months?

No way, no way at all, so the truth of architectural work at prabably 50-75% of courses across America has probably always been vastly under-reported!  

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

I know...I just couldn't resist, given that your documentation of GM is so extensive and since you're the one who encouraged me to document everything fully (which keeps growing!)

[Mike_Cirba]

C'mon Bausch...I'm still tweezing pickers out of my hand from our safari today.  

Let's see those new pics.  

[Joe Bausch]

Mike, after I get some other stuff done today I'll prep those photos from our expedition yesterday.  But I'll provide now a photo of a photo.  In the clubhouse of Cobb's Creek is a Hagley Museum photo that we don't have a copy of (yet!).  It is the best early look (July, 1930) at the 4th hole to date, IMO.  Here it is:

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

That blow-up clearly shows the green in its current spot, even though that path is ridiculously close to it.   It also seems that the current tee is the one that was in use because anything further left would have tree blockage.

Would you agree?

Also,

I just bought the map of the "lake" this morning...actually, I bought 2 maps and they both show it.

It was just below (southeast) of the Karakung course.   I can't imagine where it went, but it may be a key piece of the water-management puzzle.


Scratch that...I just bought a third map, vintage 1927, that shows the entire golf course property and more.

[Joe Bausch]

While at CC clubhouse yesterday we found a photocopy of an undated, probably very early, map of part of the Cobb's Creek area.  Here is a cropped photo of the map, which is southeast of the Karakung course:



And here is a Google aerial of approximately the same area:

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

I can't quite line that up, but does it appear that the Lake was lost with the building of that factory-like structure?

btw, do you agree with my thougths on the 4th?

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,

I can't quite line that up, but does it appear that the Lake was lost with the building of that factory-like structure?

btw, do you agree with my thougths on the 4th?

It looks like the lake was lost (?) w/ a Septa project.  I think that factory-like structure is where Market-Frankford El trains are parked.

I still don't know what quite to think about that 1930 photo of the 4th.  That walking path sure seems to connect up across the creek, although part of it is blocked by a tree.  No matter, where is a bridge to get across the creek if the tee is similar to where it is today?

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

Yes, you're right...it looks like the creation of the railway bed was the finale for the lake.   I guess the environmental concerns were much less at that time, but I'd have to imagine that having a lake downstream, along with a clear dredged passageway upstream would help, although I'm no hydrologist clearly.  

As far as the 4th, It looks as though they'd walk around the right to get to the green.   And, although it's very fuzzy, it does look like something there interesecting the creek which would get them to the island if needed.

Speaking of maps, I just sent you two.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Mike, after I get some other stuff done today I'll prep those photos from our expedition yesterday.  But I'll provide now a photo of a photo.  In the clubhouse of Cobb's Creek is a Hagley Museum photo that we don't have a copy of (yet!).  It is the best early look (July, 1930) at the 4th hole to date, IMO.  Here it is:

Joe,

I can't wait to see the other pictures from your expedition.  I wish I was able to join you and Mike yesterday.

Regarding the 4th, that picture is a HUGE improvement over the quality of the photos/angles we previously had for the hole.  I need to spend some time looking at it versus the current configuration, but at first glance it appears the tee is slightly further to the left (and possiblly further back) than the current tee.  However, it is difficult to pinpoint exactly where that back tee is.

Keep them coming, boys!

For comparison, here is the current configuration:



The old back tee in the 1930 aerial is probably somewhere in the picture:

[Joe Bausch]

MikeC and I wore ourselves out getting across Cobb's Creek to get a better idea of the views of some of the original layout.  Here is a view up the hill of the original 6th hole.



That tee has been used through the years for the current par 3 6th (the original 12th).  Here is that view:



Here is a view from the other side of the creek, behind the current 6th green (original #12).



Much work was needed to arrive at where we think was the original #13 tee, a long par 5 that teed off over the creek and the fairway ran up to the current driving range.  Just barely visible in this photo is the blue sign 200 yards out in the range.



A short walk down Route 1 allowed us to get down to the two possible green sites for the original par 3 14th.  Here is one possible view from a green location across the creek back to the current driving range parking lot:



The tee for the original par 4 #15 was about 100 yards farther back than currently; this pic is taken from on or near that original tee location:

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

Thanks for posting those.   It makes the fact that I still have about 5 separate slivers buried deep within my hands seem almost worthwhile.  

It makes the fact that you fell about 3 feet onto your side from a decayed tree and then essentially soaked yourself with a boulder seem almost sane for two grown men!  

But...back to the golf course.

The pic that shows the drive from the old 6th hole is pretty wild and I'm still trying to think of a hole anywhere else where the drive must scale an 80-foot high elevation in the first 150 yards.  

Also,

I'm thinking that you guys are possibly correct that the tee on #4 might have been back and left a little bit from today's tee.   Also, what else are all those white patches in that aerial?  Boulders?

[Kyle Harris]

That looks like wash out from flood damage...

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