[mike_malone]

 Are there rowhomes in the background now from that angle on #12 ?

[mike_malone]

 I think it is rare that one can recommend a restoration of a routing that was changed so much from a tee location perspective without significant disruption . Here one does not need to relocate the irrigation system or even disrupt play to any great extent. The most significant move is to get rid of a dumpy driving range and combine it with another dumpy driving range, hopefully ending up with a nice driving range .

   I think that is why we are excited by the prospects.

[Joe Bausch]

I've searched the microfilm of the Philadelphia Inquirer for 1928 concerning the summer Public Links tourney.  Nothing really of note there in terms of architecture (or who did the 17th, etc).  But a couple of things struck me that I thought I would pass along.  

From the Sunday, July 29 issue, just before the tourney started on Tuesday:

"Many of the visitors stated that they had not expected to see a course of such attractiveness as Cobbs Creek.  Some of them are frank enough to confess that the many hazards on the links and its natural beauty almost took their breath away."

On Thursday of the tourney, the subheadline was the following:  "Colored Golfers Seek An Injunction".  Here is the scanned article below:

[Mike_Cirba]

Michael,

I agree with you, and in answer to your question on #12, behind the green are the railroad tracks and then McCall CC.  

In fact, you know what just occurred to me?

A restoration to the old routing could be done AND still allow for the current routing to be played.   How many restorations could say that??  

[Joe Bausch]

Are there rowhomes in the background now from that angle on #12 ?

Are you asking what you see behind the old 12th green when standing on the hill at the tee?  If so, I think you pretty much just see a hill and the train tracks.  And behind that is McCall Field.

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

Thanks for posting that story, which is absolutely abhorrent.

To think that the USGA acted in that fashion back then is sickening to contemplate and certainly tainted the results of the competition.  

That it happened at a course like Cobbs Creek which was a national leader in permitting and even promoting integrated play was a sad disgrace.

[Bill Hagel]

I was reading about this story in the NY Times article (for some reason my local library's web service did not have Philly Inks between 1924 and 1930).

It turns out the judge ruled in favor of the black players and ordered them reinstated into the match play tournament.  Unfortunately the court's ruling didn't come until the afternoon of the next day and match play was already in the second round (they played 2 matches a day back then).  Reinstating the players may have caused the tournament to be cancelled.  According to the NYTs the two men graciously withdrew from the tournament rather than to disrupt it in that manner.  

[Mike_Cirba]

To get back to a more positive note, it's important to also note that all of the great African-American players played at Cobbs Creek, and included Ted Rhodes, Howard Wheeler, and Bill Spiller, who were golf's equivalent to "Negro League" baseballers such as Satchel Paige and Josh Gibson.

It also included a young Charlie Sifford, just moved up from North Carolina, living with his uncle and working at the Nabisco Plant on Roosevelt Boulevard.

According to Jim Finegan's account;

Young Sifford was surprised and delighted to find both blacks and whites playing at Cobbs Creek.  "I'd never seen anything like that in North Carolina," he writes.  "But in Philadelphia, out on the public courses at least, things were different...here was a place where I could play without having to worry about some groundskeeper coming by to run me off the course."

[Kyle Harris]

One of my fondest childhoods memories is of driving past that Nabisco Factory on the way to Carrefour/Franklin Mills and smelling the cookies baking.

[Mike_Cirba]

Perhaps I'm slow, but it hit me overnite that other than bunkering (which is minimal, as discussed) , there is really very little work that would need to be done to restore the old routing/holes.

The first five holes are essentially the same, then you would need to clear the hillside of trees for 6, which would also expose the old 12th tee.

Then, 7, 8 would be the same and for 9 all you'd need is to clear the row of pines planted to separate the re-routed fairways.

Then, for 10 you'd need to clear a few pines to play to today's 14 green, and then you could take out the entire row between today's 14 & 15 to expose the old 11th fully.

12, as discussed, and then you come to the biggest part of the project, the reclamation of the driving range for golf and finding/establishing the old 13th tee and fairway. This could be easy or hard depending on the amount of desired earth-moving to recreate former topographics but all in all still not earthshattering.

If there was a desire to recreate the original par three 14th across the creek, this might take some doing, given the proximity of the creek to the green and possible environmental issues.  

After that, reestablishing the old back tee on today's 9th hole and that should be it!

So, I really see it in two major sections;

1) Clearing the old 6th fairway of trees.
2) Reestablishing golf on the driving range holes.

The rest if just removing planted fairway-separating pines, and building tees.

Of course, that's not the whole project...there's also irrigation, rebuilding a few greens, rebuilding tees, rebuilding bunkers, but strictly from a routing perspective, I think that's it.

Am I missing anything?  

[MSusko]

Mike,

That sounds about right.  Let me add though that there are hundreds of other trees that need to be cleared.  Many greens and most tees do not recieve enough sunlight or air flow.  Also, it would be in the best interest to rebuild all of the greens, tees and bunkers to bring them up to modern specs.  IMO the two biggest parts of this is going to be fixing the flooding issues and irrigation/drainage.  No small task.

Mark

[mike_malone]

 I think several of the early writings we have been sharing have discussed the problems for the greens in the low areas like #3, #4 in particular. So, that problem goes back a long way.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

That sounds about right.  Let me add though that there are hundreds of other trees that need to be cleared.  Many greens and most tees do not recieve enough sunlight or air flow.  Also, it would be in the best interest to rebuild all of the greens, tees and bunkers to bring them up to modern specs.  IMO the two biggest parts of this is going to be fixing the flooding issues and irrigation/drainage.  No small task.

Mark

Mark,

Yes, understood, and some of us were discussing the flooding/drainage issues last night with more to follow.

Also agree about the trees and related agronomic issues and also the bunkering but I wasn't so sure about the greens.   I'm sort of a fan of push-up greens, I think they have more long-term durability than USGA ones and it looked as though most were in the best condition I've ever seen them.  I've seen a number of courses go from push-up to USGA-spec and I've yet to see one I thought was for the better.

Of course, that's only my lay opinion, and you would obviously know much better than I do.  It would be interesting to get them cored and see what's under there.

[Bill Hagel]

Mike

Can you provide a short primer on the difference between pushed-up greens (definition) and USGA specs for us super-novices of the Board.

Thanks

[MSusko]

Bill,

Go to GCSAA.org or USGA.org.  You'll find all you want to know about both.

Mark

[Mike_Cirba]

For anyone who might be interested, there is some good discussion going on right now about pushup vs USGA greens on the "Oakmont Greens" thread.

[Joe Bausch]

It was a beautiful day for some exploring.  There appears to be some remains of a bridge leading to the original 13th teeing area:



I think a drive of maybe 200+ yards would leave you about here, at the back on the driving range.  The 9th (current 7th) green is barely visible to the right.  There is a decent upgrade and the 13th green might not be visible:



Here's a view from the green back down the fairway (the current 7th green to the left in the pic):



There seems to be remnants of the bridge to get from the 14th green to the 15th tee:



I did not cross the creek in attempts to precisely locate the old 14th green, but I think it would be right here:



The more I read about how hard Cobb's was, the more I believe it.  In the original set-up, holes 3-5 and 12-14 are two really tough stretches of holes with the creek very much in play.

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

You're an absolutely maniacal Indiana Jones of golf course archeology...I love it!!

It looks from the pictures that in playing the old 13th, the position of today's 7th green (old 9th) might not be as dangerously in play as it may look from the old aerials.   Did you get a good sense of that?

The other thing that surprised me is that it does seem like it might have been both uphill and sort of blind from the tee as described in the articles.  

Next time I'm coming with wading boots.  

[Joe Bausch]

It looks from the pictures that in playing the old 13th, the position of today's 7th green (old 9th) might not be as dangerously in play as it may look from the old aerials.   Did you get a good sense of that?

Yes, I never really thought that was a problem and after really digging around in that area, my opinion hasn't changed.

I spent many minutes at #4 again today.  And I can report with confidence that I still have no great feeling if the green has been moved since the original opening of the course.  

If the yardage was at 150 yards as the 1915 Inky article suggested it would be, the green if located in the area short of the green now would require the tee be so far back on the hill to be unlikely.  This photo here from pretty far behind the current tee is still only about 100 yards to where we think the green could have been:



To get to 150 yards would require the tee be way back on the current cart path along the way from the 3rd green.  But I think this is still possible.  If you read Verdant Greene's description (with big rocks on each side and a 'picturesque glen', together with the angle of the stick drawing) then the green would have to be in this other spot to get that yardage and have a view of the green.  If it really was this way, whoa, that hole would have been tough.

[Kyle Harris]

The greens seem to be in pretty decent shape for the time of year, usually indicates a good autumn.

This true Joe?

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

After all of our speculation, I'm now pretty confident that the 4th hasn't changed much, but Mark Susko did mention that the old-timers said the tee was back up the hill a little and to the right of today's tee.

Great to hear that there is no danger inherent in the old routing of 13 if we can get it restored.  

Did 14 look like a hole that would be worth restoring?   As much as I'd love to see it happen (and progress with 19 holes), it does look like EPA city in there.   Perhaps Bill Hagel knows what might be possible?

Also, did you get the sense of whether the old 12th tee would have been in the firing range from the old 6th tee?  That was my other major concern.

Kyle,

Most of the greens were in pretty terrific shape when we were there a few weeks ago.  

[Willie_Dow]

It certainly shows how we must walk the Cobbs Creek down from Nova to the Cobbs course to find catch basins that will slow down the flooding in a deluge !

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,

After all of our speculation, I'm now pretty confident that the 4th hasn't changed much, but Mark Susko did mention that the old-timers said the tee was back up the hill a little and to the right of today's tee.

Great to hear that there is no danger inherent in the old routing of 13 if we can get it restored.  

Did 14 look like a hole that would be worth restoring?   As much as I'd love to see it happen (and progress with 19 holes), it does look like EPA city in there.   Perhaps Bill Hagel knows what might be possible?

Also, did you get the sense of whether the old 12th tee would have been in the firing range from the old 6th tee?  That was my other major concern.

Kyle,

Most of the greens were in pretty terrific shape when we were there a few weeks ago.  

Mike, I'm confident the old 12th tee is not really in firing range from the old 6th tee.  And playing amateur GCA here, I would think some of those trees that have since grown up could be left in place to protect the 12th tee when I hit a super quacker on our inaugural round with both me and you together w/ MarkS and CharlieS.  

Regarding the 4th:  I don't think those 'old timers' that Mark refers to were around before 1930.  We know the course changed pretty quickly after it opened.  We need to get out there again to bounce ideas off each other as to how this hole was, with a range finder as a guide.  I really do think the tee was not super far from the 3rd green and along/near the current golf cart path, and the green was in the other location.  Plus, the 4th hole was listed at 400 yards.  That is close to where the back tees are now for the hole, which I think you would not want a hack golfer hitting from if the green for the 4th was in its current location.

Kyle:  the greens are fantastic for mid-December.

Parting shots:  after spending about 2 hours by myself studying those holes described earlier and above, I figured no way anybody would be playing the course in 36° temps.  But as I walked down from the current 17th tee to the 5th tee, two African-American fellows were playing Cobb's.  We chatted for a few minutes (they thought I was crazy just walking around the course taking it in!) as they putted out on 4 and moved on to the 5th.  The distinct impression I got was how thrilled these two guys, probably about 50 years old, were to call Cobb's their home course.

[Joe Bausch]

It certainly shows how we must walk the Cobbs Creek down from Nova to the Cobbs course to find catch basins that will slow down the flooding in a deluge !

Absolutely Willie!  This has to be addressed and solved, IMO.  That area where the old 13th used to be is problematic.  

Guys:  we need to get out there again as a group.  There is so much to explore and talk about.  MarkS:  let us know what weekend days coming up are good for you so we can get something arranged soon.

[Joe Bausch]

Odds and ends from my Indiana Jones exploration today:  

1.  The original #10, a par 3, which runs to the current 14th green teeing off from at/near the current #8 tee, was listed in the 1915 Inky article as being 235 yards.  I'm confident many of those yardages listed aren't quite exact.  And this is one of them.  If the tee for this hole was right behind the 9th tee (which the stick diagram from 1915 shows), the hole is about 210 yards from my range finder estimations.

2.  The original par 5 eleventh is listed at 570 yards in the Inky article.  I don't know how that was measured, but I think that was overestimated.  If the tee was near that concrete (rest area?) remnants near the current 14th green, the hole is more like 530 yards, if played back up the current 14th fairway and a dogleg left (this hole, BTW, had to be a dandy par 5 as reaching the green in two would be a long shot up the hill and even the more sensible way of playing it as a 3 shot hole would still make the approach shot challenging).

3.  The original 9th hole is listed in the Inky 1915 article as being 430 yards.  I know when the group of us were eyeing that hole, it does look that long when standing at the back of the current 14th tee.  But the trusty range finder suggest that is 400 yards tops.  I guess the tee could have been even farther back (maybe even at the forward tee for the current 16th), but I think that is unlikely.  Back that tee too far back and the people on the original 11th green are in danger.

4.  The original 15th hole, the par 4 running up the hill parallel to City Ave, was listed at 360 yards.  That would require the tee box be in the grass to the right of the entrance to the range (real close to route 1).  In fact, from what I could tell it seems some underground water source combines with the Cobb's creek that comes across route 1 (as seen in that earlier picture I posted) right near where I think the 15th tee would have been based upon all the available remaining evidence.

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