[TEPaul]

"Interesting...
Given that much of the internal plans for the artificial features (bunkers, mounds and such) of the holes seem to have come after Wilson's 1912 trip abroad, those drawings would be rather revealing about the course evolution I'd bet."


We've thought a lot about that for some time now. My opinion (and Wayne's) is that a course drawing that may've been generated by engineer Richard Francis in 1911, approved by the board and with which they took the course into construction was mostly about the specifics of tee and green siting (in relation to preexisting naturally occuring features)and probably not much about things like fairway bunkering on the midbodies of the original holes.

Now, I'll tell you something that I think is truly amazing about Merion East. If you look very carefully both AT and also AROUND those tees and greens of Merion East that are from the original 1911 iteration and still exist (I'm speaking of #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #9, #14, #15, #16, #17, #18) one can notice if they have a good eye for this kind of thing, that they are remarkably NATURAL LANDFORM!

The point is they could dig or build bunkers and mounds around them later but those actual greens (and their tees) are remarkable natural landforms, in our opinion. So one does not take too much time doing this if they're playing just look at #18 green sometime and go out from it and look all around it. One cannot help but notice how much of it is nothing more than natural preexisting landform on a very slight side to side natural roll or ridge! I'll talk about some of the other original greens in that vein later.

To me this is basically all about some really good routing before construction and really being able to pick up well on everything out there that's natural and preexisting that can be used beautifully for golf. This kind of thing also really does take a lot of hours over a drawing board measuring and running intruments in the field----eg just as Francis's story imparts!

I think one of the truly fascinating things about Merion East is so much of it looks like it had to be a pretty good amount of ARCHITECTURE (man-made architecture) but it's NOT---it's a whole lot more natural than most anyone suspects!

A few of the greens from later years that were changed for agronomic reasons or were from redesigns for various reasons may be more of the man-made (#8, #11, #12, #13) but those original ones are pretty amazingly natural landforms to me. In many ways they sort of remind me of some of the remarkable natural landform greens of Myopia, a course that preceded Merion East by over a decade!

In my opinion, this (Myopia and Merion) is early natural golf course architecture at it's best Boys!

And this man Hugh Wilson is being called a "novice" by some today WHO couldn't do much of anything back then in 1911 on his own and basically with the help of his MCC committeemen?? That is not only preposterous, it is completely historically inaccurate!

To be fair to those who've been the primary ones questioning Wilson and Merion, I should say that both of them when they began their endeavors of questioning Merion and Wilson did say that they felt they had a lot to learn about Merion. That, I believe, is an absolute truism, and it still is. It really does take a whole lot of time and I don't see there's much of a way to abbreviate it. But I do think all the collected information and knowledge to date from all kinds of sources and people will surely help others in the future to understand a lot more about it than has ever been understood before.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom

IMO the greatest similarity between Merion East and Cobbs Creek is EXACTLY THAT!....those wonderful lay of the land, low-profilegreens built right on natural landforms.

[TEPaul]

"....those wonderful lay of the land, low-profilegreens built right on natural landforms."


There is actually what I would consider one other last bit of corroborating evidence that I think confirms that fact. At the very end of those now seemingly controversial board minutes there was a description of the particulars of construction work as the club was just about to start the construction of the course. It was mentioned that the work was probably too much for MCC's crew and their present equipment (Haverford) to do and so they talked about hiring this contracting company called the Johnson Bros. (and mostly about the fact they could lay Johnson Bros. laborers off quickly than the problem of hiring them in the first place). But then they actually described the work they had to do in some detail and very little of it seemed to be of the type that required much of any "architectural" engineering (other than the fact they had to blow the top of the quarry off that fronted #16's green site! But that was accomplished in a day).

This may also explain the mystery (at least to us) of why apparently about 95% of what concerned Wilson in 1911 and for some years to come (and is actually about 75% of Macdonald/Whigam's July 1, 1910 letter to the MCC Search Committee) was it was all about GRASS and getting it to grow properly and not about construction architecture!

[Dan Herrmann]

Guys - thanks again for this thread!

[Mike_Cirba]

I've been trying to find a picture that provides the same angle as Joe Bausch's 1915 construction photo of the 5th green, but this is as close as I can come.   

The original cameraman likely took the picture from atop the railroad embankment behind the green, but today that area is tree covered and difficult to navigate.

[archie_struthers]

 


Mike /et al

My good friend and long time PGA Professioanl Billy Papa pretty much grew up at Cobbs ... Billy's father  "Big Reds" apparently held "court" there for years , being a fabulous player and iconic figure amongst a group of "rascals" that would make Caddy shack pale in comparison...

Perhaps I can convince Bill to come to the December shindig and tell us a few stories ...also he knows the architecture and golf course probably as well as anyone ...and we can summarily interrogate him on same

We eat breakfast together daily...and we'll talk on this tomorrow

keep swiinging

[Mike_Cirba]

This picture from Joe Bausch's archives provides a better, broader view that captures more of the scene of the 1915 construction photo;




Please note as well the "at grade" greensite, per my previous discussion with Tom Paul.

If anyone wants to see any other green photos of this very low-key, natural type exhibited at Cobbs Creek (that are similar to Merion's), just let me know and I'll be glad to be of service.

[Mike_Cirba]

Another news article near opening day found by Joe Bausch today.   

[Mike_Cirba]

I take great pleasure in bringing this thread back to the top, not just with a 'bump', but a simple feel good story.

After Joe Logan's Philadelphia Inquirer article was published a few months ago, which included an e-mail address to contact our Friends of Cobb's Creek Golf Course group, we received an e-mail from a fellow living in West Chester who has a relative (great-great uncle, I think) that worked as a kid at Cobb's Creek... and get this, is still alive and well at 97 years young!

Well, it took a couple of months to arrange a get-together, but this afternoon it happened at the golf course.  Mike Cirba and I met Bruce Hepke and his great-great uncle Attilio DePalma (he goes by 'Tillie', how 'bout that!) for a trip back in time.  Tillie started as a 'chaser' at Cobb's around 1921.  We learned that  a chaser was somebody the picked up golf balls at the range.  He progressed to be assistant caddymaster and was also the caddy for whenever Joe Coble showed up to play, which was often.  Coble, for those that are playing along at home, was the first 'Rocky story' of Philadelphia.  Coble honed his game at Cobb's Creek while working working as a waiter nearby, and eventually won the 1924 Publinx tourney and later turned pro and won the Philadelphia Open.

I'll allow Mike to recount some of the interesting accounts he had of the course, which are many.  I'll just get things started with a nice pic of the three of us standing on the 17th tee at Cobb's:

[Mike_Cirba]

Wow...what an afternoon!

As Joe mentioned, we were fortunate enough to spend the afternoon in the gracious company of a man we previously knew only as someone who caddied at Cobb's Creek in the 20s.   I must admit that I didn't really know what to expect going in.

I'd really like to gather my thoughts and do justice to this story, because it was magical.   Right now, I'm still decompressing.

Just a couple of quick notes.   It turns out that "Tilly" not only knew Joe Coble, he was "his man", and his caddie for tournaments and outings at Cobb's Creek and other local courses, including private ones.   He recounted what a "wonderful man" Coble was, and how he had a special affinity for, and popularity with "teaching the ladies", all said to me somewhat whispered with a mischievous smile.

He remembered the course in considerable detail, and showed us where you used to tee off on the long gone par three 14th over the creek, which was eliminated in the mid-20s.   He told us about the restaurant that was located on the 15th hole, and how it was perfectly located for hungry and thirsty golfers and caddies during the round.   He told us that the "good guys" would pay for their caddy's snacks, and how some others wouldn't.   Joe assured him that not much has changed in that respect.

He was astounded at how the trees had grown, and how much thicker they were than in his day.   He wouldn't make much of a GCA-er, however, as he thought the course looked much prettier with all of them there. 

He marvelled at the condition of the greens...."like carpets", he called them, and said in his day grass on golf courses was much sparser and thinner.

I could go on, and probably will tomorrow when I have some dedicated time to think and write. 

It's a bit difficult to take in meeting with someone who was born before the Titanic went down, who played and caddied at Cobb's Creek while Hugh Wilson and Ab Smith and Joe Coble were still alive, and who had the spry, genteel manner of an earlier era mixed with the spunky playfulness of a man being returned to his boyhood stomping grounds.   I feel like I was just plopped down in "Field of Dreams", and watched a man transported in time.   

Profound.

We've been sadly informed this evening that "Tilly" DePalma has suffered a serious stroke Thanksgiving week and his prognosis is not favorable.   He is resting comfortably with his wife Ruth of many, many years by his side.

Golf is a wonderful game that spans and binds the generations and I'll be forever grateful for the incredible privilege to have spent a few hours in the company of this vibrantly jubilant man, and for the joy of seeing his cherished boyhood memories come alive in his eyes as we toured the course at Cobb's Creek over a half century since he last trod those hills and valleys as an ambitious young man filed with a love for the opportunities the game offered him and an eye to the better future he could provide for his family.

[Mike_Cirba]

We've been informed that Mr. DePalma sadly passed away this past Tuesday.   He will certainly forever be an inspiration to those of us who met him and to our continuing efforts to affect a historic restoration at Cobb's Creek

The man lived an absolutely incredible life, as can be seen in the following;

http://www.legacy.com/philly/DeathNotices.asp?Page=Lifestory&PersonId=120923201

God bless him and his family.   He certainly seems to have brought a lot of joy to others during his lifetime.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Attilio "Til" De Palma   
DE PALMA
ATTILIO "TIL" 97, of West Chester, PA, born in Phila., formerly of Los Angeles, CA and Ardmore, PA died December 2, 2008. Brother of the late, Louis, John, Albert, Marie, and his twin, Emilio. He is survived by his wife of 37 years, Ruth (nee Johnston); her son, John Johnston and daughter-in-law, Pat Sellen; his nieces, Bettina Tatarsky and Jean Hepke, and many great nephews and nieces. After graduating from Overbrook High School, Til, as he was known, earned a scholarship and studied the french horn at The Curtis Institute of Music graduating in 1935. For the next 3 years, he played for the National Symphony in Washington, DC. In 1939, he played for the Salzburg Opera (Austria) company's US tour. He then free-lanced in New York City, playing the Telephone Hour for the Metropolitan Opera. Til, then went to Pittsburgh, to play for the symphony there under Fritz Reiner. Til played on the score for Disney's Fantasia movie with the Philadelphia Orchestra while working for the Pittsburgh Symphony. In 1941, Till went west to the San Francisco Symphony, Pierre Monteaux conducting. During World War II, Til was assigned to the Navy Band in Washington, DC where he spent the war years as a Chief Petty Officer. After the war, he played on Broadway in Showboat from 1945-46. In 1947 he traveled to LA to play for the LA Symphony under the baton of Alfred Wallenstein. In the 1950's and 60's, he played for Disney Studios, the San Francisco Opera, and the Royal Danish Ballet. Til continued to freelance with Columbia Studios, 20th Century Fox, Greek Theater, and TV. In 1971, Till married Ruth Johnston ending a 10 year courtship and honeymooned in Europe. From 1975 to 1988, Til worked as a player/contractor for the Ice Follies, Ice Capades and the Joffrey Ballet. In 1984, he served as Orchestra Personnel Manager for the 1984 Olympic Arts Festival. In the early 90's Til and Ruth lived in retirement in downtown LA until moving back home to be closer to family, especially his best pal and twin brother, Emilio (Mil). The twins enjoyed their trips to Center City even at an advanced age. Til would regale friends and family with stories about his caddying days at Cobbs Creek, the celebrities he had performed with, adoring orchestra fans, and 3 dinners at the White House. He claimed that first lady, Eleanor Roosevelt, was incredibly nice to him. Just last June, Til was invited the The Friends of Cobbs Creek to tour the course he had caddied at 80 years ago. He toured by golf cart and lent his knowledge, as the oldest living caddie, on the course and characters from his era. Up until his death, he was quite independent, taking his daily walk and caring for Ruth. In lieu of all flowers, the family would appreciate contributions to: The Curtis Institute of Music, 1726 Locust St., Phila., PA. 19103-9324. Visitation will begin at 10 A.M. Friday, Dec. 5, 2008 with Funeral Services at 11 A.M. and Interment to immediately follow at BRINGHURST FUNERAL HOME AT WEST LAUREL HILL CEMETERY, 225 Belmont Avenue, Bala Cynwyd, PA www.forever-care.com

Wow... his life reminds me of the quote:  "You only have one life but if you do it right, that's enough".  God bless you, Til and thank you for allowing Mike and Joe to walk down memory lane with you at Cobb's.  It is now our responsibility to share your legacy with others and restore what is there today back to what you could see.

[Mike_Cirba]

Geoffrey,

It was one of the most privileged and cherished moments of my life to have spent a few hours at Cobb's Creek with the grown-up boy who caddied for Joe Coble in the 1920s.   It was absolutely ethereal and almost surreal, yet as physically impactful as a punch in the gut.  I felt like I was living a real-life "Field of Dreams", where "Doc" Graham steps out of Archie's shoes and crosses the line and steps into the modern world to do his duty.

In reading his obituary, it was clear that he brought many people great joy over the course of his life, but I was not in the least surprised to learn of his grand accomplishments in the world of music and entertainment.   His vibrancy, curiosity, passion for life, and enjoyment of and love for other people was self-evident even in the brief time spent with him. 

Our thoughts and prayers are with Til's family, but it seems to me that his life was a cause for celebration.   

We've also been told that Mr. DePalma will be fittingly buried with the Cobb's Creek cap that was given to him by Mark Susko during his visit this past June.

[Mike_Cirba]

If all goes well, the much promised YouTube videos of our day with Mr. Atillio DePalma at Cobb's Creek will be online by the end of this week.

I finally watched the film for the first time today.

Despite the annoying interviewer, I think you're in for a treat.   He was quite the man, and I'll stop at that, because I believe you'll all see for yourselves very soon.

[Mike_Cirba]

In the meantime, we'll just add two interesting photos (the first of the 18th green facing the clubhouse (note the mounds along the Lansdowne Ave. side of the road) and the second of an area of the course we're still trying to place) taken during the 1928 US Publinks Tournament and uncovered by Geoffrey Walsh during our weekend research.

[Joe Bausch]

If all goes well, the much promised YouTube videos of our day with Mr. Atillio DePalma at Cobb's Creek will be online by the end of this week.

I finally watched the film for the first time today.

Despite the annoying interviewer, I think you're in for a treat.   He was quite the man, and I'll stop at that, because I believe you'll all see for yourselves very soon.

Slowly I'm getting some of the Til video footage processed!  I'll start with this little intro piece as we sat in the Cobb's Creek clubhouse and we learn about his early days as a caddy:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KCjsGQEizAk

I'll have more clips later of our time touring the course!

[Mike_Cirba]

All,

I have a tough time describing what it felt like to talk with such a wonderfully gracious man, and then to find out he was Joe Coble's caddie back in the 1920s felt like an episode from the Twilight Zone.

I hope these films give everyone a flavor of what was an incredible day.

[Adam Clayman]

Guys,
 Keep it coming, great stuff in an over the top geeky way.

Watching that clip made me think, and lament, about how badly I wanted to interview the old boys at Pacific Grove. The stories were priceless.

Thanx

[Mike_Cirba]

Thanks, Adam...I've been going for the over the top, geeky thing lately.   

Seriously, glad you enjoyed.

Hey Joe..I'm starting to think once you get more ready on YouTube that perhaps this should be its own thread.

I'm thinking a lot of folks probably look at the size of this thread somewhat dauntingly at this point, and even though nobody will mistake us for Redford and Newman, I'd hate for people here to miss a nice human interest story for fear that they are too far behind in their reading to catch up.

Thanks!

[Joe Bausch]

Mike, I'll start a new thread tomorrow with more clips!

[Kyle Harris]

In the September 30, 1915 edition of the Philadelphia Bulletin is an update on the progress of the locker rooms at Cobb's Creek (the course opened in May of 1916).  What is interesting about the photo is that is taken from in front of the 2nd green, which apparently had some interesting bunkering at the back of the green:



Contrast this to a fairly current photo from near the 2nd green:

While playing here yesterday it occured to me that we could have been off in some photographic analysis.

Consider the angle of the two photographs in Joe's post, especially the clubhouse. It appears that the 1915 photograph was taken from well left of the 2nd fairway since the clubhouse is almost head-on from the vantage of the photographer.

Then look at Joe's picture from the middle of the fairway and notice how the clubhouse is angled away.

I think it might be possible that these volcano bunkers were actually front left of the green and here's why:



The wording of the caption is also interesting in that it notes the hole sign indicates the putting green to be on one side.

My other speculation, which seems most plausible is that this was never a bunker and merely fill for other bunkers or projects since this photo is from before the course opening. Could the caption-writer have been mistaken?

**EDIT** Even more possible is that the photographer was standing where I have the bunkers in the Google aerial. That seems to make the perspective views of the buildings behind correct and places the bunkers behind the green.

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe Bausch has come across a 1923 Public Ledger article that could very well explain why the original par three 14th hole was abandoned sometime in the middle 20s, only to be replaced by today's 17th.   

As good as today's hole is, the original hole would have been pretty wild too, with a full carry across the creek at it's widest to a green set back in the woods on the other side.




You'll notice the article also mentioned the original 12th hole (today's 6th green) which originally had a "sluiceway", cut across the front of the green in effect creating an island.

The Upper Darby officials probably mistook that for the county line and I'm sure when blows started flying after this brouhaha got going that the city of Philadelphia made darn sure to point out that ALL of that hole was in Philadelphia, and not across the line into Delaware county.

This may also explain why the original 13th tee, which was originally on the far side of the creek, was moved to a spot behind today's 6th (old 12th) green on the Philly side by the time we have aerials in 1928.

The only other feature that would have been in Delaware County would have been the original 6th tee, but perhaps no one noticed. 

[Mike_Cirba]

Poor drawing, but everything to the left of the creek (drawn in light blue) is actually part of Upper Darby, Delaware County.   

The original 14th, abandoned in the mid-20s, is in the upper left.

The sluiceway on the 12th, which created the island green, and which led to confusion and conflict is drawn in red.

[Mike_Cirba]

In any case, anyone interested to see the first part of our interview with the late Til DePalma, who was Joe Coble's (former US Publinx Winner and then Professional) caddie at Cobb's Creek in the 1920s, you can find it here;

more to come...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KCjsGQEizAk

[Mike_Cirba]

This photo/drawing shows the original layout a bit better, including the old abandoned 14th in the upper lefthand corner and everything outside the county line to the left of the creek;

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