[Paul_Turner]

Ally

I've played that hole and the green is a devil and so it's still a challenging hole.  But the trees and a path to the left have spoiled the hole to some degree:  there are filled in bunkers in the trees up against the path.

I've seen a lovely old painting of this hole too (it's the 6th).





Filled bunkers



Green

[Ally Mcintosh]

thanks for posting those, paul...

the most disappointing aspect appears to be the complete disappearance of the large flanking bunker on the right... seems very overcrowded with vegetation on that side now...

[Sean_A]

Played quite a few Simpson courses one of which is a hidden gem called Blackwell (posted these before):









A lot of his courses need a bit of love.  The bunkers at Hardelot look to have been screwed up for the use of "machine raking".

Paul

Its a small world.  I was just at Blackwell yesterday.  In these parts the club is spoken of in hushed tones.  Its a very small club and members are only allowed 12 guests in total all year.  Though visitors are welcome, but I think the green fee is north of £50 - the course isn't worth that much - consequently, not many locals visit.

I have always heard that Fowler was the man at Blackwell.  With all these Simpson fans out there, pretty soon Fowler won't have any courses to his credit.  I have heard folks say Cruden Bay (I would like to really know the history behind this course) and the Berkshires are Simpson as well.  

In all honesty, I can't tell by looking at Blackwell if its Fowler or Simpson.  The two don't strike me as all that different.

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Sean

Get the Curden Bay Centenary book (or borrow it next time you are in Aberdour).  The course is about 50% Simpson/a bit of Fowler and 50% old Tom Morris/a bit of Archie Simpson (no relation).  (Tom) Simpson was obsessed with the place, and took it from good to nearly great status, but it is by no way exclusively his design.

[Peter Pallotta]

Rich
can you provide some more details on this, i.e. how the work was 'divided' at Cruden, who did what etc

I'd decided one day just to give Fowler all the credit, then I saw Philip's pictures and realized I was selling Simpson short.

Did he bring the 'art' to Cruden and Fowler the 'bones'?

thanks
Peter

[Ally Mcintosh]

rich,

seeing as you're the archie simpson man, do you know how much input tom simpson had on royal aberdeen?... and while you're here, have you any idea who laid out the ladies (silverburn) course at royal aberdeen?

thanks,
ally

[Rich Goodale]

Peter

The book I mentioned does a hole-by-hole analysis of who did what and when.  I don't have the time to post it now, but I think I have done it before on this forum, as well as in my article on Old Tom Morris for Golf Course Architecture magazine.

Ally

The Club Secretary (MM Duncan, by all accounts a fine golfer and architect) laid out the Silverburn Course.  Tom Simpson made a number of proposals to Royal Aberdeen during his summers at Cruden Bay, only a few of which were accepted, including a few bunkers at the 18th and an extended 11th hole (all done with Duncan).

[Philip Gawith]

These two threads contain some more Morfontaine (Simpson) pictures. Possibly my elliptical headings defeated some!

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=31822

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=31824

[Paul_Turner]

Sean

It's a Tom Simpson course, see following drawings from the club history.  I don't think Fowler would ever build a bunker like that long snake on the 12th.

The bunkers really did look like this when the course was built;  I've seen an old pic or two in some obscure magazine and they had that same lacey edge. The club is steadily srewing them up!

[Sean_A]

Sean

It's a Tom Simpson course, see following drawings from the club history.  I don't think Fowler would ever build a bunker like that long snake on the 12th.

The bunkers really did look like this when the course was built;  I've seen an old pic or two in some obscure magazine and they had that same lacey edge. The club is steadily srewing them up!

Paul

As I say, I cannot say differentiate between Simpson, Fowler and even Abercrombie.  Especially these days when the bunkering is often similar.  So what makes you think Blackwell is a Simpson course other than the bunkering?  I don't think Fowler was quite as aggressive as Simpson was with bunkering - in quantity or style.  You could be right about the snake bunker, but I think that is a dreadful feature!  The course was built nine holes at a time.  Would this have anything to do with the both of them being involved?  I notice that the sketches mention Fowler.  I have only heard mention of Simpson in relation to Fowler where Blackwell is concerned.  Was Simpson an associate of Fowler or was it a partnership?  I find the team they make very odd in terms of how they may have worked together.

Ciao

[Paul_Turner]

Sean

I think Simpson designed Blackwell because the drawings and writing are Simpson's (signed TS).  

Fowler could have been involved too; but from memory the club history credits Simpson and all the correspondence is with him.  They advertised as "Fowler and Simpson" ...a full partnership.

To me it's only really the bunkers that say "Simpson" rather then "Fowler".  Pretty similar to Spa/Fontainebleau.

[Andrew Mitchell]

Sean

Get the Curden Bay Centenary book (or borrow it next time you are in Aberdour).  The course is about 50% Simpson/a bit of Fowler and 50% old Tom Morris/a bit of Archie Simpson (no relation).  (Tom) Simpson was obsessed with the place, and took it from good to nearly great status, but it is by no way exclusively his design.

Rich/Sean
I had noted a couple of days before you posted the above that the Cruden Bay centenary book was on sale on ebay. I managed to get it at a reasonable price last night as I was the only bidder.  I didn't mention it sooner on here as I thought someone might read of it and up the price

[Noel Freeman]

I have a dangerous idea which is that Herbert Fowler spoiled Tom Simpson's devilish tendencies.. I had this discussion with Golf's most beloved as we walked Mortfontaine.. The evidence: If you go back to the work Simpson did on the Valliere course at M-fontaine, there are some crazy internal contours to the greens. This was in 1910 before he did the big 18 there and toned down the act tremendously.   The old 9 has 2-4 foot internal contours that are incredibly bold and fun to play..

Curiously in 1910 he joined forces with Herbert Fowler.  I think Fowler severely restrained Simpson or maybe taught him to be a bit more bland.  As he built Mortfontaine in 1927, the terrain and sandy soil could have begged for greens such as we see on the old nine, yet they are flatter and with the exception of the wonderul 13th (par 3) lacking of any large internal contours.

I have played many a Simpson and Fowler courses and one of the tenets I've seen by Fowler is steep back to front green. Eastward Ho has this in spades as does New Zealand GC (here they are subtle but lightening fast) and the Berkshire.  Obviously, Fowler influenced Tom because the evidence is in Mortfontaine's main 18 greens.

The naturalism Simpson espouses in his writings almost has a Thoreau like quality to it.. The watercolors he did and bunker sketches as well.  One of the great reasons for venturing to Spa in Belgium was to see what remained of some of his intricate bunker designs (some have changed there, others remain). To me it seems Simpson kept pace with his artistic hazard design but something influenced his greens and to me that had to be Fowler. In researching Deal, Tom MacWood sent me an interesting critique Fowler published in 1909 about the course pre the Open Championship and he alluded to much being unfair of all the things advocates of links golf would love (blind shots etc).. With this ethos, Fowler resembled some of the thought his contemporary Colt believed ( I know this because I've talked to Paul Turner about it).. But Simpson was a rogue and yet I can't figure out why his greens arent as wild as his drawings or bunkers.  The only thing I can believe is that Fowler was a great influence.

"I saw Tom Simpson at Sunningdale yesterday. He told me that Spain where he has been making some new courses and Switzerland are the only two civilised countries in Europe. I always thought he was a bit mad, but now he appears to be completely 'bats'." John Morrison in a letter to Hugh Alison in 1949

[Sean_A]

I have a dangerous idea which is that Herbert Fowler spoiled Tom Simpson's devilish tendencies.. I had this discussion with Golf's most beloved as we walked Mortfontaine.. The evidence: If you go back to the work Simpson did on the Valliere course at M-fontaine, there are some crazy internal contours to the greens. This was in 1910 before he did the big 18 there and toned down the act tremendously.   The old 9 has 2-4 foot internal contours that are incredibly bold and fun to play..

Curiously in 1910 he joined forces with Herbert Fowler.  I think Fowler severely restrained Simpson or maybe taught him to be a bit more bland.  As he built Mortfontaine in 1927, the terrain and sandy soil could have begged for greens such as we see on the old nine, yet they are flatter and with the exception of the wonderul 13th (par 3) lacking of any large internal contours.

I have played many a Simpson and Fowler courses and one of the tenets I've seen by Fowler is steep back to front green. Eastward Ho has this in spades as does New Zealand GC (here they are subtle but lightening fast) and the Berkshire.  Obviously, Fowler influenced Tom because the evidence is in Mortfontaine's main 18 greens.

The naturalism Simpson espouses in his writings almost has a Thoreau like quality to it.. The watercolors he did and bunker sketches as well.  One of the great reasons for venturing to Spa in Belgium was to see what remained of some of his intricate bunker designs (some have changed there, others remain). To me it seems Simpson kept pace with his artistic hazard design but something influenced his greens and to me that had to be Fowler. In researching Deal, Tom MacWood sent me an interesting critique Fowler published in 1909 about the course pre the Open Championship and he alluded to much being unfair of all the things advocates of links golf would love (blind shots etc).. With this ethos, Fowler resembled some of the thought his contemporary Colt believed ( I know this because I've talked to Paul Turner about it).. But Simpson was a rogue and yet I can't figure out why his greens arent as wild as his drawings or bunkers.  The only thing I can believe is that Fowler was a great influence.

"I saw Tom Simpson at Sunningdale yesterday. He told me that Spain where he has been making some new courses and Switzerland are the only two civilised countries in Europe. I always thought he was a bit mad, but now he appears to be completely 'bats'." John Morrison in a letter to Hugh Alison in 1949

Wow.  I thought this thread was very interesting and this post by Noel in particular.  The line about Fowler having a strong tendency to built back to front greens doesn't nearly jive with m experience of Fowler by a very long shot.  Its as if we are thinking of two different guys.  Anyway, have a read and contribute.

Ciao

[Peter Pallotta]

Cruden Bay was one of the first courses I read about when I got to gca.com. and Simpson was one of the first "lesser-known" architects I learned about. I became big fans on both right away. But as time passes, I find that I can't escape a basic belief (also referenced on the Dr. Mac thread), and that is: "If you routed it, it's yours; if you haven't, you can at most get 50% credit, and for that you'd have to have erased/re-made every surface feature on the course".  Sort of manichean in thought, granted, so probably lacking as practical test....

Peter

[Tom_Doak]

Ah the good old days when you could say you thought another architect was "completely 'bats' !"

I wish I knew for certain where to find the best remnants of Simpson's work, separate from Fowler.

[Ally Mcintosh]

He fascinates me does Tom Simpson.

As I'm sure most of you know, the only three courses he touched in Ireland were Countly Louth (Baltray), Ballybunion and Carlow, all of which I rate very highly.

At County Louth, he did considerable work, of which quite a bit remains. Peter's paraphrasing Dr MacKenzie about only 50% credit max being allocated if the routing isn't yours is interesting because I think it very much depends on what you mean by routing. In the case of Baltray, Simpson hardly altered the base routing of the course but he altered it enough to introduce many completely new green sites that are situated very close to the originals. The current course can be considered more than 50% his I suggest.

He made fewer alterations at Ballybunion but the ones he did make are significant and all have a stamp of class about them. Interestingly, I located an old 1960 aerial of Ballybunion and (as can be expected), many of the bunkers have changed considerably in shape and style in the interim years. But quite a few of the old bunkers have what to me seem like a Simpson style about them. I have just been put in touch with a gentleman who actually worked on the construction crew for those 1937 moderations so I'll hopefully know more very soon.

Ally

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Simpson did quite a lot of work in Spain (maybe that's why he liked it so much!!!).

 - Reconstructed Puerta de Hierro after Spanish Civil War (1946-1949)
 - Built new 9 holes in Puerta de Hierro (1947-1949)
 - Remodelled Malaga after the Civil War (1946), originally a Colt course
 - Remoldelled (very slightly) Pedreña (1946), together with Javier Arana
 - Taught Javier Arana all there was to know about how to design a golf course.
 - Discovered the land that was later to be site of El Prat, near Barcelona. Same thing for La Toja, near Vigo.
 - Remodelled 9 holes of Terramar, close to Barcelona

I don't know exactly what he did in the other courses, but in Puerta de Hierro routing of 7 of his original holes remain (out of 13 originally built by him). Up until 1998, routing remained for all of them, but some holes had to be changed due to land being lost to a nearby highway. However, members were not very fond of three things that were removed over time: centreline bunkers, hollows and hillocks close to the green and green contours. They disappeared in the lapse of 10-15 years after Simpson left.

Regards,

[Sean_A]

He fascinates me does Tom Simpson.

As I'm sure most of you know, the only three courses he touched in Ireland were Countly Louth (Baltray), Ballybunion and Carlow, all of which I rate very highly.

At County Louth, he did considerable work, of which quite a bit remains. Peter's paraphrasing Dr MacKenzie about only 50% credit max being allocated if the routing isn't yours is interesting because I think it very much depends on what you mean by routing. In the case of Baltray, Simpson hardly altered the base routing of the course but he altered it enough to introduce many completely new green sites that are situated very close to the originals. The current course can be considered more than 50% his I suggest.

He made fewer alterations at Ballybunion but the ones he did make are significant and all have a stamp of class about them. Interestingly, I located an old 1960 aerial of Ballybunion and (as can be expected), many of the bunkers have changed considerably in shape and style in the interim years. But quite a few of the old bunkers have what to me seem like a Simpson style about them. I have just been put in touch with a gentleman who actually worked on the construction crew for those 1937 moderations so I'll hopefully know more very soon.

Ally

Ally

Its interesting that you don't seem to include the green site as part of the routing.  Is this normal thinking among archies?

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Its interesting that you don't seem to include the green site as part of the routing.  Is this normal thinking among archies?

Ciao

I'm not an archie, Sean, but IMO if you don't have green sites in your routing you don't have a golf course, just a bunch of tees heading nowhere.....

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sean, I most certainly would consider green sites an integral part of a routing.

But what I was trying to get across is that a "green-field" routing is about making a jigsaw of your own invention fit together. You are deciding the orientation, the flow and the relationship of one hole to the next. If you are lucky, you will be able to use over half of the green and tee sites you identified.

Simpson resolutely didn't do that at Baltray. He took the existing course and shifted greens and tees in to better places. By looking at his report, I guesstimate that he only significantly changed the orientation of the 15th hole. He altered almost every hole but left the framework the same.

That's what I was trying to get across. Therefore MacKenzie's 50% plus comment can be open to some sort of interpretation.

[Eric Smith]

Sean had bumped this back up last month and I thought I'd give it another.

He fascinates me does Tom Simpson.

 

I've been reading several old threads and some stuff on his society page.  Fascinating is how I would describe Tom Simpson as well.  What an interesting character, I had no idea.

I want to dig in and learn as much as I can about Simpson and his courses.  Any further insight is very much appreciated.  This should be a fun winter project and I hardly think I'll be disappointed in my education.

Here's a bit that got me started on this kick from a George Peper article in LINKS:

Eighty years ago, if you lived in Europe, had some land and some money, and wanted to build a top-quality golf course, the go-to guy was Tom Simpson—assuming you could put up with his act.

Picture yourself, the course owner, at a site visit. You’re out on a boggy moor in your tweeds and wellies contemplating a nascent greensite when a vehicle approaches from over the brae. It’s neither a truck nor tractor, but a chauffeur-driven Rolls-Royce. From the backseat emerges what appears to be a fugitive from the Cannes Film Festival, sporting an embroidered cape, horn-rimmed sunglasses, a floppy beret, and an attitude—Tom Simpson has arrived.

Simpson came from money, was educated at Cambridge, and worked briefly as a lawyer before turning to golf course design. A scratch player at venerable Woking Golf Club near London, he knew the game and also knew how to cultivate the carriage trade—among his clients were the Duke of Windsor, Lord Mountbatten and two Barons de Rothschild.

It is Simpson who is credited with dubbing the 1920s and ’30s the Golden Age of golf course architecture, and he did his part, with designs at Cruden Bay in Scotland, the Berkshire near London and New Zealand Golf Club, as well as widely lauded renovations of Ireland’s Ballybunion and England’s Sunningdale. But his best work may have been in France: Chantilly, Fontainebleau and the course that is ranked first in the nation, Morfontaine.

More here... http://www.linksmagazine.com/golf_courses/international/france/morfontaine_golf_course_france.aspx

Also, would anyone happen to have a copy of his and Wethered's book The Architectural Side of Golf they would be willing to lend?  If so, I'll gladly pay shipping x2.

I really like the look of this bunker:





Lastly - Hey Anthony, I'm beginning to wonder if you're not related to Mr. Simpson.  No wonder Cruden Bay occupies the top 7 spots in your top 10!

See a resemblance?  



  

[Ulrich Mayring]

This one ain't bad either:



To me Hardelot is one of the most underrated courses anywhere. I just absolutely love that course.



Ulrich

[Sean_A]

Sean had bumped this back up last month and I thought I'd give it another.

He fascinates me does Tom Simpson.

 

I've been reading several old threads and some stuff on his society page.  Fascinating is how I would describe Tom Simpson as well.  What an interesting character, I had no idea.

I want to dig in and learn as much as I can about Simpson and his courses.  Any further insight is very much appreciated.  This should be a fun winter project and I hardly think I'll be disappointed in my education.

Here's a bit that got me started on this kick from a George Peper article in LINKS:

Eighty years ago, if you lived in Europe, had some land and some money, and wanted to build a top-quality golf course, the go-to guy was Tom Simpson—assuming you could put up with his act.

Picture yourself, the course owner, at a site visit. You’re out on a boggy moor in your tweeds and wellies contemplating a nascent greensite when a vehicle approaches from over the brae. It’s neither a truck nor tractor, but a chauffeur-driven Rolls-Royce. From the backseat emerges what appears to be a fugitive from the Cannes Film Festival, sporting an embroidered cape, horn-rimmed sunglasses, a floppy beret, and an attitude—Tom Simpson has arrived.

Simpson came from money, was educated at Cambridge, and worked briefly as a lawyer before turning to golf course design. A scratch player at venerable Woking Golf Club near London, he knew the game and also knew how to cultivate the carriage trade—among his clients were the Duke of Windsor, Lord Mountbatten and two Barons de Rothschild.

It is Simpson who is credited with dubbing the 1920s and ’30s the Golden Age of golf course architecture, and he did his part, with designs at Cruden Bay in Scotland, the Berkshire near London and New Zealand Golf Club, as well as widely lauded renovations of Ireland’s Ballybunion and England’s Sunningdale. But his best work may have been in France: Chantilly, Fontainebleau and the course that is ranked first in the nation, Morfontaine.

More here... http://www.linksmagazine.com/golf_courses/international/france/morfontaine_golf_course_france.aspx

Also, would anyone happen to have a copy of his and Wethered's book The Architectural Side of Golf they would be willing to lend?  If so, I'll gladly pay shipping x2.

I really like the look of this bunker:





Lastly - Hey Anthony, I'm beginning to wonder if you're not related to Mr. Simpson.  No wonder Cruden Bay occupies the top 7 spots in your top 10!

See a resemblance?  



  

Eric

I think a big part of the problem folks have is figuring out what Simpson did.  He didn't have all that many well known original designs.  Much of his work seemed to be in redesigns and working with others.  Just looking at the GB&I courses listed in the article shows how ambiguous Simpson's efforts were.  It is difficult and sometimes downright wrong to ascribe any of the GB&I course listed as THE work of Simpson.

Ciao

[Eric Smith]

Sean

Yes I've read enough today to see that his career and design credit(s) are really almost contentious to the point that one probably will never truly know the answer.  One question I would like to at least get a point in the right direction to the answer if you will is Rich Goodale's mention that Simpson had a real problem with Old Tom?  Until I get a book or two in hand to dive into I don't know where to begin to find the back story to this.  

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