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Mark Bourgeois

The walker's mantra is, "Tees close to greens."  And yet on some otherwise very walkable courses you come upon a longish green-to-tee walk.

When done right, I have not considered these walks routing flaws at all.  To me, they are like pauses -- or even better, like passageways, wormholes into the odyssey that is the round of golf.  (It is said there are seven basic stories, one of which being "odyssey," the hero's taxing journey home.)

I think of them as wormholes because they are most effective when there is a sense of the golfer's "detachment" or "embarkation" from the "civilized world;" e.g., a connection to the clubhouse.

My question is, despite my appreciation, would any designer whose stated aim was a walkable course consciously introduce a wormhole?  Or do you always consider these unfortunate concessions to an otherwise-excellent routing?  (And how would Desmond Muirhead answer these questions?)

For me, the two criteria that make for excellent wormholes are:
1. Reasonably early in the round, although I think Yale gets away with a mid-round one; and
2. The course post-wormhole is somehow disconnected from the clubhouse, or from other parts of the course.

(I have yet to find a wormhole on a links but remain hopeful. Maybe one of those links with massive landforms...)

Even if they don't quite meet the criteria, I still like them as pauses.  You know, "palate cleansers."  IMHO, to be of high quality as a palate cleanser, the passageway must "manifest the sacred" of the location: they should use fauna unique to the place, not simply throw us into the rat hole that is a generic one-mile concrete cartpath. (Although I accept that might actually "manifest the sacred" of South Florida.)

Here are a few examples.

1. Yale, from 9 green to 10 tee: not including cart path, there actually is a choice of high road or low road.  The high road feels more like a wormhole, for it is a walk through woods that disconnects you from the 9th very effectively.  It involves exertion.  It also feels like a wormhole because once you're off the 10th tee, your departure from "civilization" is realized. On the first nine holes, you're sort of bouncing around, never all that far from the clubhouse, or at least never feeling a sense of estrangement.

I liken playing the front nine to running from store to store, collecting provisions for the treacherous ocean crossing ahead.

Hitting off 10 tee then is the departure.  I always found the back nine like an odyssey: you really don't see much of the other holes or other golfers.  You do see a few telecommunication towers off to the side of 11, but those always seemed somehow remote.  I never did have a good sense of where I was on the back nine, unlike on the front, for some reason...


2. Durban, post 3rd.  This one felt like a departure, too, coming as it does early in the round.  You will not see the clubhouse again until you reach 18 tee.

The road to estrangement at least is paved, even if the palm fronds look like evil mitts about to drag you into the darkness that lay just off the path...



The next three feel more like palate cleansers than wormholes.


3. Barnbougle dunes, post 4th.  This one has elements of the wormhole.  It's early in the round, and as the path brings you into contact with Anderson Bay and "die ausland," it does introduce a beautiful desolation. (I saw only one person on the beach the entire time I spent on that path.)

The long walk from 4 green



4. Hong Kong Golf Club, post 16th.

In the footsteps of Caddie #361



5. Rockport Country Club, post 10th.  This one's not necessarily too late to rise above palate cleanser to wormhole, but post-10 the course doesn't feel that different than pre-10.  Live oaks (the mighty Quercus virginiana!) are particular to the Gulf Coast, though, and so like all the other pictures in this post flora are used if not to manifest the sacred, then at least to help us appreciate the specialness of this place.

Beautiful canopy



Do you have any favorites?

Mark
« Last Edit: October 23, 2007, 11:02:54 PM by Mark Bourgeois »

TEPaul

The title pretty much blew my mind so I can't get into the initial post.

Maybe next month.  ;)

Are GOLFCLUBATLASERS maybe trying to get a little too clever in the threads and posts they make?

I guess I shouldn't talk.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2007, 11:00:59 PM by TEPaul »

Mark Bourgeois

Ugh, that title does sound like a paper rejected from a conference on "Physics for English Majors."

Lemme see if I can fix it...

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Are Long Walks Between Tees, On Walkable Courses, Always Screwups?
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2007, 11:03:15 PM »
...how's that?

Mike_Cirba

Mark,

You're a trip, man.

There's an executive course in New Jersey called Bel-Aire that has something like what you're talking about where if memory serves, you play about 10 holes, and then walk down along a narrow corridor for what seems like a mile to play another 6 or so, before retracing your steps and coming home the last two.   A Hal Purdy deal...

A more modern course that comes to mind, with mandatory carts, is White Clay Creek in Wilmington Delaware, which is built around Delaware Park horse racing track.

After two holes, the drive to the third takes you around the whole back stretch of the practice race track, and lends an integral feel to a very strange and extremely penal golf course.  
« Last Edit: October 23, 2007, 11:06:00 PM by MPCirba »

David_Tepper

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Re:Are Long Walks Between Tees, On Walkable Courses, Always Screwups?
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2007, 11:11:13 PM »
I would hesitate to use the word always. If there is a long walk between a green and a tee, there better be a pretty good GCA reason for it.

The longest walk I can recall is on the back nine at Highland Links on Cape Breton (between the 13th gree/14th tee, I think). It is a beautiful walk of at least 300 yards along a large stream.  

Jordan Wall

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Re:Are Long Walks Between Tees, On Walkable Courses, Always Screwups?
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2007, 11:17:54 PM »
I wish somebody had some pictures of the walk between the 5th and 6th tees at Kapalua.

Powell Arms

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Re:Are Long Walks Between Tees, On Walkable Courses, Always Screwups?
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2007, 11:22:59 PM »
I wish somebody had some pictures of the walk between the 5th and 6th tees at Kapalua.

That'd be a short film, not a picture. ;)
PowellArms@gmail.com
@PWArms

Andy Troeger

Re:Are Long Walks Between Tees, On Walkable Courses, Always Screwups?
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2007, 11:24:54 PM »
I'm not sure how many people really walk Blackwolf Run River, but there is a walk between the original holes and the holes built when the courses were separated. The walks come between holes 4 & 5 and 13 & 14. Its not ideal but its a neat little walk in the woods.

Phil McDade

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Re:Are Long Walks Between Tees, On Walkable Courses, Always Screwups?
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2007, 11:33:55 PM »
Mark:

Great topic.

I think I have one for you -- Stonehaven Golf Club, near Aberdeen in Scotland. The course is set on something like 63 acres, and plays to a par of 66 at @ 5,100 acres.

Some might view it as not classically links, but its turf is pretty springy and it does sit right beside the North Sea. It's more of a cliff-top course (think Old Head in Ireland), but it's subject to pretty strong winds and plays much like a links.

Stonehaven is an odd little course, with several unconventional-length holes and others that are best described as WT??? It has a bunker named after Adolf Hitler, features several dramatic par 3s with tees sitting on the very edge of the cliffs, and significant carries over deep ravines. It can run hot or cold with folks; Finegan, writing in "Blasted Heaths and Blessed Greens," loved it as perhaps the epitome of Scottish holiday golf. The terrain of much of the course slopes significantly from the clubhouse (which sits on the highest point of the course, just off the Aberdeen-to-Stonehaven road) down toward the cliffs, and it even has a hole -- Jake's View -- that crosses not one but two fairways. In the middle of the course runs the Aberdeen-Stonehaven railroad commuter line, and you sometimes have to pause in your backswing to wait out the commuter cars that go zip-zip-zipping through the course.

But then, in the middle of all this hubble-bubble, comes a serene four-hole stretch. The course couldn't fit all 18 holes on the land adjacent the clifftops, so it put four par 4s -- 416 to 272 yds in length -- in a meadow on the north side of the railroad commuter line. The walk from the 8th to the 9th hole (the first of the meadow holes) is a long one, easily 200-plus yards. The meadow holes are one big loop, and you return to the cliffside holes to finish out the course on the same path.

It's like night and day -- the meadow holes are on much softer turf, with fairways and greens framed by trees; it's like setting foot on your average muni in Wisconsin. You play your four holes, and then are transformed back into the wild tumult of Stonehaven's clifftop, oddly canted holes.

Some pics here, though none of the meadow holes:

http://www.stonehavengolfclub.com/our_course.htm






Jordan Wall

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Re:Are Long Walks Between Tees, On Walkable Courses, Always Screwups?
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2007, 11:39:08 PM »
I wish somebody had some pictures of the walk between the 5th and 6th tees at Kapalua.

That'd be a short film, not a picture. ;)

This is the best picture I could find, out of those that I took.

You have to go through the ravine from the 5th hole across to reach the tee box from where this was taken.


Rich Goodale

Re:Are Long Walks Between Tees, On Walkable Courses, Always Screwups?
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2007, 04:24:15 AM »
Mark

I like the original title better.  A wise poster once said, "Obey Tom Paul only at the peril of your credibility." ;)

For a wormhole to be interesting there has to be something better than a worm at the end of it (maybe even a pony?), or at least the sensation of "and now for something completely different!"  The walk at Crail which Sean mentions just doesn't do that for me.  The holes it leads to just aren't good or interesting enough.  Same with the walk from 10 to 11 at Kingsbarns.

One other observation. These wormholes (like the ones in Physics theory) are very fragile.  25 years ago, there was a great one between 2 and 3 at Dornoch before they screwed around with the the 3rd tee.  Now, you bump into the 18th tee on your way to the third, and a lot of the magic is gone.  Conversely, the walk from 6 to 7 at Dornoch used to be not much more than a cardiac stress test, leading to a fairly dull looking hole.  Now, however, with the new tee at the end of the slog you get not only a much better golf hole, but also an incredible view back over the rest of the course and to the sea and hills beyond.

Rich

paul cowley

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Re:Are Long Walks Between Tees, On Walkable Courses, Always Screwups?
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2007, 05:52:07 AM »
Does the trek from 5 to 6 tee at PBeach qualify as a wormhole?....or a casting? ;)

I appreciate the time you spend on your threads Mark.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Dan Herrmann

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Re:Are Long Walks Between Tees, On Walkable Courses, Always Screwups?
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2007, 08:18:21 AM »
Cape Breton Highlands Links has a great walk from 12 to 13

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/capebreton2.html

(2nd picture)

John Mayhugh

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Re:Are Long Walks Between Tees, On Walkable Courses, Always Screwups?
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2007, 08:26:30 AM »
I'm someone who usually bitches about long walks from green to tee, but have to agree that sometimes they work.  The example of Yale's 9th to the 10th is a good one.  That walk sort of allows you to catch your breath (assuming you take the low road) before tackling the second 9.  It sort of prepares you for the isolation of the back.

If most people that play the course ride, the long walk should come after a challenging par 3 or short par 5 or else the walkers have to hustle to stay ahead of riders.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Are Long Walks Between Tees, On Walkable Courses, Always Screwups?
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2007, 08:50:06 AM »
The walk from the 11th green to the 12th tee at Rick Smith/Warren Henderson's Shenendoah GC at Turning Stone in Verona, NY is a classic.

You basically walk/ride the length of the par four 14th hole backwards, climb a rise and then loop around the back of the 13th green,  and Voila!, you reach the 12th.

On foot, it's about say 15 minutes.   :P

Tom_Doak

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Re:Are Long Walks Between Tees, On Walkable Courses, Always Screwups?
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2007, 09:17:10 AM »
Mark:

A good topic.  

I doubt that in any of the cases you cite, the architect could have chosen instead a very good hole with the tee close to the previous green.  Terrain sometimes gets in the way of this when you have decided to use an especially cool green site for the previous hole.  However, it's certainly more acceptable to leave a walk between holes when there is some natural beauty to be appreciated on the way.

Evan Fleisher

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Re:Are Long Walks Between Tees, On Walkable Courses, Always Screwups?
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2007, 10:09:55 AM »
I've never been there...but folks have talked about a walk thru a tree canopy from 15 to 16 at CPC...anyone care to "yeah" or "nay" that one?
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

Eric_Terhorst

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Re:Are Long Walks Between Tees, On Walkable Courses, Always Screwups?
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2007, 10:23:26 AM »
Surely the answer to the question is "no, not always."  But I think Erin Hills has many long walks--or drives, as most people encounter it--that could have been avoided.

Mr. Doak,
perhaps you've explained this before, but would you mind commenting on the walk between 11 and 12 at Pacific Dunes?  I make it about 130-150 yards using Google Earth's ruler.  The 5th tee is between 11 and 12, and 4 is right next to 12, so I can think of many possible reasons, but it would be great to hear the straight scoop.  One of my good friends with sophisticated golfing tastes said it was the only thing he didn't like about the course, and I tried to defend it without success.

Thanks!

Forrest Richardson

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Re:Are Long Walks Between Tees, On Walkable Courses, Always Screwups?
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2007, 10:25:47 AM »
It is not so much 15 to 16, but 14 to 15 at Cypress. I think, in general, the crossing of the threshold at Seventeen Mile Drive is an extraordinary passage at Cypress — the anticipation, the stage and the momentary wait are all such a great part of the round.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tom Huckaby

Re:Are Long Walks Between Tees, On Walkable Courses, Always Screwups?
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2007, 10:34:51 AM »
It is not so much 15 to 16, but 14 to 15 at Cypress. I think, in general, the crossing of the threshold at Seventeen Mile Drive is an extraordinary passage at Cypress — the anticipation, the stage and the momentary wait are all such a great part of the round.

Great call Evan, and man as I read through this thread I was wondering what the heck took you all so long to mention 15 green to 16 tee at Cypress.

And I must disagree with my man Forrest.  On, 14 green to 15 tee is a nice walk, and crossing the threshold of 17 Mile Drive is meaningful, but to me it pales compared to the walk of all walks, which is what 15 gree to 16 tee is to me.

See, if you're a red-blooded great golf hole-loving golfer, your thoughts about 16 started about two miliseconds after you got the invitation to play the course.  15 also is looked forward to, but 16 is the big deal.  How you did on 16 is what you're gonna tell your buddies about.  16 is where you're gonna take pictures, if you are into such things.  16 is where you're gonna measure your success on the round - you could botch all other 17 holes, but if you get one on 16 green, you go home happy.

So the anticipation is freakin' palbable... and it grows and grows and grows as the round goes on... until you finally get to 15, which of course is a fabulous golf hole in its own right.  So you concentrate on playing that, until you putt out... and then the tought is "holy shit, we're here"....

Only you're not.

You walk off 15 gree and you go through the tree canopy.. where is 16?  You know it's there because you saw 16 green from 15 tee, off in the distance.  But it's hidden by the trees..... only then what's that, a gap in the trees reveals the green again... but then it closes up and you keep walking... only to emerge on the tee, and jesus h. christ, there it is, it is real, what an incredible sight.

Now THAT is a walk.

 ;D

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Are Long Walks Between Tees, On Walkable Courses, Always Screwups?
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2007, 11:10:46 AM »
I don't know what to make of the CPC 15 -> 16 walk.  That doesn't sound like a wormhole or a palate cleanser.

But the passage across 17-mile drive definitely sounds wormhole.  The more I see of this MacKenzie guy, the more I believe a certain type of genius possessed him.

John M, you've definitely captured the essence of that Yale walk, and more broadly what I was getting at, in mentioning "the desolation of the back."

It's nice to see a number of architects looking in, because as I think about your comment it gets to this idea that at one level, the routing must be functional; i.e., short walks.  But there's this higher level, too, which makes you think that maybe after all the golf course architect may aspire to true artistry.

This higher level is the concept of the routing taking into account things like local scenery, odysseys and being "cast out" after the first holes that stay close to the Edenic clubhouse, etc. etc.

It's this idea of not simply how the golfers should play a hole, and get from one hole to the next, but how architects can play on golfers' emotions and attitudes via the route they lead them on, and the timing of things like longish walks.  You know, a links can play on these emotions using weather and the typical out and back routing.  The wind and elements can create a fantastic sense of estrangement, not only from golfers on other holes but even sometimes from those in your group.

(It would be something to consider a clubhouse "physically estranged" from most of the course due to a large landform.  You play the first and last holes on the clubhouse side, and then it's over to the other side for the adventure.  I need to find out more about the links mentioned in the posts.)

And that's what I'd like to know: is it possible for architects to consciously and purposely factor into a routing the impact of wormholes and palate cleansers, and plan them, or is that just too complicated -- is it hard enough just to get the holes themselves located without having to think about something as inane as an "inter-golfing" walk?

Are you better off just trying to work out the tightest (green -> tee) routing you can, and if one a longish walk must be included, then you have to do it, and it's regrettable?  I infer from Tom Doak's comment that walks are regrettable tradeoffs of fantastic green sites, and you hope there's a nice walk to make up for it.

But that doesn't get at what comes next, the idea that a wormhole "sets up" the golfer for the "something different" that's coming.

Now, John and Tom, regarding that walk on Yale, that long walk actually may have been the product of the failure to build 36 holes -- or at least put the clubhouse between 9 green and 10 tee.

I am looking at the original 36-hole routing map for the course.  It's a fairly rudimentary map, and although it does have topo lines, the holes are done in basic watercolor and are rectilinear -- 9 green doesn't look anything like a Biarritz. (Doesn't necessarily look due to the rudimentary nature of the green, either -- hmm...)

Enough of that, I assume this map's been discussed on here before -- but originally, the clubhouse was to sit on Greist Pond, next to 9 green, and 10 tee was meant to be on the other side of the clubhouse.

Furthermore, originally the 10th was to be 420 yards, not the 396 yards of today.  So that would have shortened the walk as well.

Of further interest, there was to be a tee not too far behind 9 green.  This was to be the 15th tee of the second, never-built 18.

All of this I guess is a long-winded way of confirming the walk at Yale was an accident, the residue of design, and therefore fails the "artists' intent" test, although I think the effect is a powerful one.

Mark

Garland Bayley

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Re:Are Long Walks Between Tees, On Walkable Courses, Always Screwups?
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2007, 11:17:30 AM »
We must not forget the walk from 6 to 7 at the beloved Sandpines.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Doug Sobieski

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Re:Are Long Walks Between Tees, On Walkable Courses, Always Screwups?
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2007, 11:24:11 AM »
I always think about 11 to 12 at Crystal Downs with respect to this topic because it strikes me as odd after the previous 11 holes so tightly knit together. Too bad the road is right there to lessen the serene feeling. It makes me sad making that walk because I know I only have 7 holes left to play.  :'(

Ken Moum

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Re:Are Long Walks Between Tees, On Walkable Courses, Always Screwups?
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2007, 11:41:03 AM »
Conversely, the walk from 6 to 7 at Dornoch used to be not much more than a cardiac stress test, leading to a fairly dull looking hole.  Now, however, with the new tee at the end of the slog you get not only a much better golf hole, but also an incredible view back over the rest of the course and to the sea and hills beyond.

Rich

Nevertheless, it's still a slog, as is the climb to 9 at Cruden Bay.

Thankfully, the big climb at Lundin is between the tee and green on 12. I recall having to hit a greenside bunker shot while trying to catch my breath there.

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

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