[Ted Kramer]

I agree with the Mayflower recommendations, very good non-fiction. 1424 Sounds interesting, thanks for the tip. . .

-Ted

[John Keenan]

Kalen

On Barry and the HOF he noted that if they display his ball with an * he will boycott it. He stated his boycott would include his election to the Hall if it were to occur.

On the Bonds issue in general, I am a fan of Game of Shadows and feel the writers did a superb job. The issue is there is no hard evidence to go after Bonds on in a court. If there  was he would be in court/jail rather than his friend Greg.

The problem I think is Barry may well be the poster child for the Juice era but he is far from the only player that used it. Pitchers seem to be quite high on the user list. One interesting item is how quiet most MLB players have been re this issue. A few spoke out but overall it has been, I fear let Barry take the heat and I will get through it.

Sad state of affairs.
 

[PThomas]

Bonds is still being investigated by the Feds

and didn't McGwire only get 24% support for the Hall last year?

as I stated earlier, I hope none of that crowd ever gets in

[Kirk Gill]

I have moved on to "A Man Called Intrepid." It's a re-read, but I was desperate - had to start a book without access to my backup pile. There's been some question about the veracity of every spymaster tale in the book, but the bottom line is that reading it takes you to a time and place when people of great character took it upon themselves to help save the world from fascism. Really fascinating reading. Even just the introduction is amazing. It will prompt you to seek out other books on that most interesting subject, and that difficult, pivotal time. Recommended.

As to Barry, 'roids, etc., the case of andro just goes to show how blurry the line can be between acceptable supplement (which andro was at one time) and horrible, illegal cheating drug (which andro is considered to be now). A LOT of the athletes you've admired over the years have used roids, particularly in football. Shawn Merriman got suspended for it just last year. Did you hear? Do you care? But Barry has four things against him that make him the central figure in the roids business: 1.) He plays baseball, which for some reason (tradition? Dependence on statistics?) gets people the most excited when it comes to the use of performance-enhancing drugs. 2.) He so obviously physically changed, and the way he used his enormous talent obviously changed from being an all-around great hitter to being a home run machine. 3.) He pursued and broke one of the longest-standing, most admired records in sports, a record set by a beloved figure. 4.) He has a complicated, difficult personality and treats people out of his inner circle (and some people IN his inner circle) with contempt and disdain. So many have used, and others have been caught red-handed, but Barry will forever have his face associated with these drugs. Shawn Merriman just gets to keep playing............

[Bradley Anderson]

David McCullough's biography of John Adams. What a great book. I have especially enjoyed reading his wife's letters. Abigail Adams may have been the greatest first lady we have ever had. She could have been President! Not a very complimentary study of Jefferson however.

Ambrose's biography of Eisenhower. Some interesting bits about his friends: "the gang" which included Cliff Robertson. Augusta figures prominently in that era of history. The whole U2 spy plane stuff is unbelievable. What I find odd about Ambrose's work however, is he virtually ignores the spiritual side of his subjects.

 

[Bill Shamleffer]

I have now moved on to The Dangerous Book for Boys.


I think we need a golf version of this book.  Dealing with items like the following:

Playing golf in the neighborhood using the hardest plastic balls (found at the pet store for those that do not know), and using trees in other yards as the "hole".

Free Monday golf at private courses and other ways to play for free (also discussions per using the back of driving ranges to practice for free).

How to shag balls (a lost skill) & caddy.

Night golf.

Why golf courses are also handy for bottle rocket wars.

How to get free golf equipment (it is handy to keep friendly with very old neighbors ready to "move-on" or especially their wives who will just want to throw out all of his clubs and shoes).

Beginning golf course drawing, and how to not get caught while working on new plans during math class.

Avoiding confrontations with the local police when using the play ground sand for bunker practice.

Selecting among your shag balls when using a lake as a driving range landing area.


YES, I do have experience in all of the above matters.

[Steve Hyden]

Moon by Tony Fletcher, a very sad story of the the rise and self-destruction of a peerless musician
Gone Baby Gone by Dennis Lehane
The Abstinence Teacher by Tom Perrota
re-reading The Greatest Story Ever Sold by Frank Rich

[Gary Slatter]

What is the last book you gave away and why?  What do you do with a book you have read?

We give most of our books to the Oxfam shop, usually one per week (except the golf books, which I hoard). I also bought two copies of World atlas of Golf Courses for 3 GBI pounds. Love these St Andrews charity shops!

[Doug Ralston]

Anyone into humor? If so, and if you lived as teen or adult in the 1960's, then the best parody extant is Harvard Lampoon's 'Bored of the Rings'. It is an absolute scream, but also a period piece.

If chess is your thing, Fischer's 'My 60 Memorable Games' and Nimzovich 'The Praxis of My System' are highly recommmended.

How about those cavers among you? If you go to Tennessee [cave center for Planet Earth!], you MUST have Barr's 'Caves of Tennessee' or Matthews 'Caves of Tennessee'. Yes, I know the titles are not too origional, but they contain descriptions of hundreds of caves you should NEVER visit, with one notable exception. Because they were public, and the locations given, ALL of those caves were horribly vandalized! Only Cuyler's Cave in ET survived, because the owners are crazy, think gold is in there, and will shoot at anyone trying to get in. Best just search TCA roles and call someone about trips to the best caves anywhere. See, knowing good lit helps everywhere.

If I were you, I'd read some good fantasy, and leave reality to just living.

Doug

[Buck Wolter]

Here's a message from Amazon I got today, looks like the writer must share Tom Doak's sensibilities :

Dear Amazon.com Customer,

We've noticed that customers who have purchased or rated The Life and Work of Dr. Alister MacKenzie by Tom Doak have also purchased Bermuda Grass by Keith Miles. For this reason, you might like to know that Bermuda Grass will be released on November 15, 2007.  You can pre-order yours at a savings of $3.29 by following the link below.

  Bermuda Grass
Keith Miles
List Price: $14.95  
Price: $11.66
You Save: $3.29 (22%)  

Release Date: November 15, 2007



   

From Publishers Weekly
In this absorbing, accessible mystery from the prolific Miles, golf pro and former British Open-winner Alan Saxon (last seen in 1991's Flagstick) agrees to help design a new golf course for a Bermuda hotel, using a new hybrid grass strain (Cynadon dactylon), but his troubles begin even before he steps off the plane from England. A divorced dad, Alan has brought along his college-age daughter, Lynette, and at her insistence, an Oxford friend of hers, Jessica Hadlow. A dominating, spoiled and outspoken sexpot, Jessica quickly derails Alan's plan to enjoy a little holiday time with his daughter. Alan's architect partner, Peter Fullard, says things aren't going well with the golf course's construction, and they're made much worse when Alan ... Read more

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Doug,
Since the inception of this website, we've always held the belief that this was a race free site. For all I know we may have people of many different race, creeds and colors and I could give a damn. All opinions do matter--on golf course architecture, in every aspect of our society and life in general.

This is a fact: yours is the first time this issue has ever been approached on this website. I'm hoping you haven't opened a can of worms for more bad behavior.

I do think this thread about reading is a valuable topic regardless if it's off-topic--reading is so important in this day and age since so many are so unread. But I have to tell you, I think you have now tainted it.

[Yancey_Beamer]

I finished reading The 7th at St. Andrews today.Totally enjoyable book.It simply covers the entire story from the original need for an additional course to the finished product with a delightful attention to detail.Read and enjoy.

[Don Hyslop]

  Recently picked up "Bobby Jones" by O.B. Keeler in a bargain bin at a local book store. Originally published in 1931,this 2002 reprint it is a light, interesting read.

[Jim Franklin]

I picked up "I Am Legend" at the Charlotte airport yesterday. I am halfway through and can't wait to see the movie. The book was written in 1954 and is supposed to take place in 1976. It is funny, but you can really tell it was written well before the time period of the movie and now that we are 30 years past when it was supposed to take place, it is even odder. But the book is excellent.

[Doug Ralston]

Doug,
Since the inception of this website, we've always held the belief that this was a race free site. For all I know we may have people of many different race, creeds and colors and I could give a damn. All opinions do matter--on golf course architecture, in every aspect of our society and life in general.

This is a fact: yours is the first time this issue has ever been approached on this website. I'm hoping you haven't opened a can of worms for more bad behavior.

I do think this thread about reading is a valuable topic regardless if it's off-topic--reading is so important in this day and age since so many are so unread. But I have to tell you, I think you have now tainted it.

Tommy;

'Barroid' Bonds is not here to defend himself.

Please note that I not only did not start the 'Barriod' Bonds diversion, but I ignored it and commented strictly on the reading thread a couple times, till I felt it was too one-sided.

Please also note that I left the 'Barriod' Bonds divesrion with not all comments toward me answered and went back to the main thread; which I too value much more highly.

I am finished with it. I disagree with those who have directed more comments toward me since I last responded to it, but I will leave it!

Please consider though, not blaming me!!

Back to the main thread, of which I still have much I like to have considered.

Doug

[David Stamm]

Just a head's up for everyone, Mark Frost's new book wll be released tomorrow, "The Match".

[Richard Choi]

I can't resist, baseball is my other passion...

I would like to remind all McGwire defenders that he had ample opportunities to deny using steroid - in front of Congress, no less. The fact that he refused to answer direct questions on whether or not he used steroids (and I mean steroids not, andro which is bad enough) clearly indicates he DID use steroids during his career.

The only truth teller on this whole issue has been Canseco (which really goes to show how sad this whole thing is), and he documents how steroid was flowing at his old ball club where McGwire was a teammate.

I think it is pretty silly for anyone to deny that he used steroids. After all, we are talking about the court of public opinion, not court of law.

Now, that does not make Bond any less of a prick. But it does call into question the ferocity of attacks against Bond compared to McGwire when both have broken two of the most sacred records in all of sports and neither of them were the friendliest guys to be around.

Personally for me, I say pax on both houses. I was very happy when only 23.5% of the Hall of Fame voters voted for McGwire.

[Bill Shamleffer]

Richard Choi,

I was not defending McGwire's activity per any use of substances to enhance his physical abilities, and I do not think any one else did.

To quote one of my earlier postings on this subject:

I have no problem with fans viewing McGwire's records and statistics with suspect and viewing his results as possibly tainted.  I made no effort to excuse what he may have done to achieve his results.  I only tried to point out why I think the public's negativity has been stronger against Bonds.

That was the essence of the debate - Why are fans reacting more forcefully with their anger towards Bonds?

Some of us feel it is because of Bond's other behavior (i.e. arrogance, selfishness) turning off the fans; while others think there are racial overtones to the negative reactions against Bonds.

Although our debate was heated at times, no one ever defended either player's possible steroid use.  We only tried to show why some behavior and some information may have been the cause of the negativity being stronger against Bonds.

Although, I still believe the negativity against Bonds is generally not about race; I do realize that there is a history of race affecting some fans’ acceptance or rejection of some athletes.  I can understand why some may thinks the Bonds reactions are about race.  I just disagree.  But neither side can PROVE who is right.

I feel the same about steroids and other substances.  I too have a lot of questions about McGwire’s behavior in relation to "use of enhancements" and in relation to his silence, including his silences in Congress.

But while, McGwire’s failure to answer questions from Congress was disappointing to me; I can not be as sure as you that he DID use steroids just because of his refusal to answer.  As I said before, he sure does not look natural and he drastically physically changed through his career.  But there is still a LOT of missing facts on steroid use in all of sports.  We do know it is out there and being used.  But I do not yet feel comfortable in knowing yet which baseball players DID use steroids

Again, I think if you carefully re-review the earlier postings on this subject matter you will see that know one "defended" McGwire per steroids.  I myself only defended his behavior in his personal dealings with teammates, other players, and the fans.  That does not excuse any steroid abuse.  It just explains why the fans have been less angry with McGwire.

[Richard Choi]

I never said people were defending McGwire's steroid use. I was noting that people were defending McGwire and noting that people are giving McGwire a benefit of doubt while indicting Bonds for practically the same behavior.

You say you are not "sure" that McGwire did steroids, I and many other say he did. Actually, I am POSTIVE that he did steroids and probably HGH as well. In fact, I am so sure of McGwire's steroid use, I would HIGHLY encourage McGwire and anyone related to him in any way to file a defamation suit against me if I am wrong. I welcome it.

Somehow, I don't think he is going to bite.

He is a liar and he is a cheat and he did steroids. Let's please try not to dance around that.

If people are so "sure" that OJ did it, they can be sure that McGwire took steroids.

Mark McGwire was never a favorite with the press. Throughout his career he was sullen and hostile to press and never had the best reputation with the fans either.

Only reason McGwire go so much postive press was due to the home run chase and he behaved just well enough to get a pass. Even then, when the Andro thing surfaced, he was down right nasty. But in general, press gave him a pass.

Whether it was due to race or not, Bonds did not get the same kind of break. Yes, he is an SOB and he made it probably much worse than it could have been. But it still does not mask the fact that he has beared all of baseball's faults on his shoulders. There were probably hundreds of other players who used steroids and it is NOT fair that Bonds has to take all the shots.

I still believe that his record is tainted and I am glad that his ball will have an asterisk, but if you are going to point fingers, you guys should be casting a wider net than just Bonds.

If Bonds is the baseball public enemy #1, then McGwire is #1A, and Sosa is #1B.

P.S. And if you believe that significant number of baseball players are not using HGH and steroids TODAY, you are very very naive.

[Jim Franklin]

Richard -

If the book (the reason for the thread) Game of Shadows was about McGwire, I am sure he would have been discussed. It was not and was about Barroid Bonds and Marion Jones etc... McGwire juiced and lied about it. You are right, he should be Public Enemy 1B.

As for race, Bonds passed another African American for the all time lead. Why does it matter? I met Henry Aaron back in the mid-eighties and he was not a huge fan of white folks. It really shocked me because he was always one of my idols as a kid. Now that I am older, I better understand why he had those feelings, but all whites are not racists and all racists aren't just white.

[Rich Goodale]

Jim

Aaron grew up in Alabama in the 1930's and 1940's.  He suffered discrimination even after he turned pro in the early 1950's.  These were his formative years, and for most of us the best years of our life.  I'm not at all surprised that he was not a huge fan of "white folks."

Rich

[John Keenan]

Well it seems the circle of players using performance enhancing drug usage is growing .Seems Matt Williams former  DBacks and Giant is on the list as are a few others. The SF Chronicle had a story this morning.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/11/06/MNM2T2U24.DTL&tsp=1

[PThomas]

Well it seems the circle of players using performance enhancing drug usage is growing .Seems Matt Williams former  DBacks and Giant is on the list as are a few others. The SF Chronicle had a story this morning.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/11/06/MNM2T2U24.DTL&tsp=1

never fear, I'm sure Bud Selig will be all over it ...

God, i used to LOVE baseball when i was a kid...it's this kind of S%$T that has turned me off of the game so much

[Phil McDade]

Paul:

That was one of Seinfeld's great lines. With all of the contract disputes and free-agent signings doing away with player longevity with their teams: "You end up rooting for laundry."

Back to books: I just picked up a copy of "Crossing California," by Adam Langer, sort of a coming-of-age novel set in the late 1970s in Chicago's Rogers Park. Like Kavanaugh, I often find myself buying books based on covers, titles and the blurbs written on the back and insider covers. Is this one worth digging into before I start a near-500-page book?

Thanks in advance.

[Jim Franklin]

Jim

Aaron grew up in Alabama in the 1930's and 1940's.  He suffered discrimination even after he turned pro in the early 1950's.  These were his formative years, and for most of us the best years of our life.  I'm not at all surprised that he was not a huge fan of "white folks."

Rich

Rich -

As an adult, I understand why he was angry. As a kid, I loved everything he did and never saw him as a black man, but as a great baseball player. It is funny how innocent children are and then get influenced as they grow. I hope my children continue to look at people as individuals and not judge them on their looks.

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