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archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
juxtaposition and green sites
« on: October 16, 2007, 06:37:28 PM »
 ok...I've been thinking about how much greens that cant from front to back are soooo cool! Given that you don't see many here in the states...looking for all you chaps abroad to weigh in on this one...anyone played anywhere that feature a plethora of these beauties?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:juxtaposition and green sites
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2007, 06:42:11 PM »
Archie:

Beechtree, just down the road from you in Aberdeen, MD, has a bunch of fallaway greens:  #1, #3, #5, #7, #8 (back right), #11 (back left), #12, #15 (back half), #17 and #18.  Only a couple of them are the classic on-the-ground fallaways as at Garden City, but it's a hard course to score on because it's hard to stop the ball on the greens.

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:juxtaposition and green sites
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2007, 07:18:49 PM »
Grandfather Golf and Country Club in Linville has several (nos. 4,9, back part of 10 green, 15,16)...if it is a downhill approach shot, the green usually runs away as well.  The green contours there, in general, mimic the cant/slope of the fairway and hole, in general.  It seemed that many (?all except the postage stamp) of the greens at Royal Troon on the front nine sloped to the back....it was blowing 40mph downwind so, maybe, it just seemed that way.  Anyone else know about Troon.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2007, 07:19:35 PM by Bart Bradley »

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:juxtaposition and green sites
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2007, 02:26:47 AM »
Elie has four, numbers 6,9,10 and 15.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:juxtaposition and green sites
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2007, 10:45:35 AM »
 :D ;D 8)


Tom...ps ...we all like Beechtree just didn't vote in the recent pushpoll (LOL)  lots of fun!

I'm convinced that fallaway greens are a great architectural tool ...fun...challenging and inverse slopes defend par very well...not favored by many players...  so what ...LOL

 when employing the maintenance meld (love it TEP ) favored by most afficionados here at the site, they become particularly charming...like false fronts.

Note courses in Ireland /Scotland appear to employ these to great effect / much more than courses built in the States>

 
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 10:47:11 AM by archie_struthers »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:juxtaposition and green sites
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2007, 11:11:44 AM »
Archie:

I'm convinced that most people just don't notice the fallaway greens at Beechtree (because they are built into fallaway settings), or there would be more complaints about it.

Strangely, I haven't built many fallaway greens on the links projects we've done, because most of my green settings are up against a feature and the ground rarely falls back into a feature.  Most fallaway greens tend to be out in the open ... at Beechtree though, most of those sites are backed by trees on a gentle downslope.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 11:13:18 AM by Tom_Doak »

Mark Bourgeois

Re:juxtaposition and green sites
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2007, 01:20:32 PM »
Archie,

I like fall-away greens, too.

Maybe Tom Doak is right about American golfers hating them, otherwise there'd be more than a few, wouldn't there?

Two places I've played where I noticed a fair number of fall-away greens are Ganton and St. Andrews Beach.

I like it when fall-away greens are coupled with other features and elements such as:

1. False fronts or dead ground.  This reduces the margin for error considerably and really makes you think; and
2. Shortish holes or holes where the approach is short.  Fall aways play to an interesting fear, this fear of going long, and if the green comes at the end of a short hole it gets you thinking about which shot to hit, a half-wedge or running pitch.  Either way, you have to finesse it, and small-muscle shots are choke hazards.

A fall away green on a shortish par 4 puts you in a situation where you might go from an all-out shot like busting a driver to a "whoa" shot where you're worried about going too far.  Come to think of it, a green like that on a short (driveable) par 4 is going to get you thinking hard, too.

I guess what I'm saying is fall-away greens can make a short hole very interesting. (And challenging!)

Jon Wiggett on one of the Ganton threads makes the excellent point that all the stuff going on around Ganton's greens (fall-aways, false fronts, bunkers, dead ground, and, especially F+F) introduce the "idea of the deliberate miscue being a good option."

I bring that up because maybe to make a fall away green "work" there needs to be a legitimate punishment for going long; otherwise, you could just play your approach shot long / longish and mostly take out the fall away, false front, etc.

St. Andrews Beach has a fair number of fall-aways, and if I learned anything from those it's that sometimes the fear of going long is justified.  The 2nd is The Little Baby Hole of Death. I liked it very much but unfortunately can tell you all you want to know about what's behind it...

Mark