Who Designs the Toughest Courses?

« **on:** October 13, 2007, 11:48:53 AM »

This came up on the JN on TD thread but I'm not sure we have ever discussed it specifically - In looking at an entire career, who does design the toughest courses overall?

I tend to think Dye, his protoges (with Mike DeVries' small portfolio headed up by Kingsley Club in first place right now!) RTJ and Strantz have the hardest course portfolios, by virture of consistently building tough courses over the decades.

« **Reply #1 on:** October 13, 2007, 11:52:52 AM »

Jeff, I am assuming you are speaking of current architects?

« **Reply #2 on:** October 13, 2007, 12:01:15 PM »

Good question, but no, not really. Certainly RTJ and Strantz are not current architects......

« **Reply #3 on:** October 13, 2007, 12:15:13 PM »

Jeff,
I think its Dye but there is a big difference in when he finishes one and what they look like five years later, they always get softened.
Randy

« **Reply #4 on:** October 13, 2007, 02:36:52 PM »

Jeff, care to elaborate with the specifics on your statement, "his protoges (with Mike DeVries' small portfolio headed up by Kingsley Club in first place right now!) RTJ and Strantz have the hardest course portfolios, by virture of consistently building tough courses over the decades..."

« **Reply #5 on:** October 13, 2007, 02:40:03 PM »

Just my opinion: I agree that Pete Dye is the first person that came to mind. PGA West Stadium course is brutal. TPC Sawgrass and Crooked Stick are no pushovers. I am going to play The Honors course in 3 weeks...I'll let you know.

« **Reply #6 on:** October 13, 2007, 02:42:42 PM »

I would JN and Dye. RTJ would certainly be in the running.

« **Reply #7 on:** October 13, 2007, 02:52:29 PM »

Quote from: Philip Young on October 13, 2007, 02:36:52 PM

Jeff, care to elaborate with the specifics on your statement, "his protoges (with Mike DeVries' small portfolio headed up by Kingsley Club in first place right now!) RTJ and Strantz have the hardest course portfolios, by virture of consistently building tough courses over the decades..."

Phillip,

After playing Kingsley with Mike, I found it to be nearly as unforgiving as a course could possibly be for a guy off his game. Fair, fun, but nearly a non stop butt pucker from start to finish. Now, I found every hole memorable, and took notes and photos from start to finish. I don't recall a single course with so many gca features. That said, every neat feature had a possibility of raising my score and in fact did so, though it was my own games fault.

That said, I came away thinking it was 18 great individual holes, but taken together, just one tough course.

« **Reply #8 on:** October 13, 2007, 03:09:12 PM »

I have only played three of Greg Norman's designs, but they were tough as nails requiring long straight drives and quality iron shots. One was at Lansdowne in VA, the Medalist (with Pete Dye) and other was Red Sky in CO. I liked Red Sky but hated Lansdowne. I played Medalist when it first opened. It beat me up. I understand it has been softened but still lost members to MacArthur.

« **Reply #9 on:** October 13, 2007, 03:20:00 PM »

It has to be Dye, with nobody a close second.

« **Reply #10 on:** October 13, 2007, 04:06:17 PM »

Probably depends more on the golfer. If you can't putt, Doak's are tough. If you are easily distracted by landforms that aren't directly in play, Dye is the toughest. If you don't know how far you hit your irons, some of Nicklaus' courses are very difficult. All depends, IMO.

CPS

« **Reply #11 on:** October 13, 2007, 04:26:49 PM »

Ake Persson.

« **Reply #12 on:** October 13, 2007, 05:04:53 PM »

Isn't the real answer linked to the the whims of the owner (or whomever "the money" is)?

At the Grand Traverse Resort outside Traverse City, MI, Nicklaus was told to build the hardest golf course he could. He did with The Bear, a course hard as hell but not well liked. So is Nickalus responsible for building a tough course or fulfilling the wishes of his customer?

Ken

« **Reply #13 on:** October 13, 2007, 05:41:52 PM »

Pete Dye hands down-He seems to enjoy it and PB isnt too far behind. Look at golf Digest's 50 toughest courses

#1-The Ocean Course-77.2 rating, 144 slope (Theyre not telling the truth!)
#4 PGA Staduim-75.9 rating, 150 slope
#8 Whistling Straits-76.7 rating, 151 slope
#14 TPC Sawgrass 76.8 rating, 155 slope
#17 Blackwolf Run-74.7 rating, 144 slope
#19 Oak Tree 76.9, 148 slope
#28 Old Marsh-74.8, 148 slope

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

« **Reply #14 on:** October 13, 2007, 05:46:14 PM »

Pete Dye as far as I am concerned.

Lester

« **Reply #15 on:** October 13, 2007, 06:21:42 PM »

Greg Norman's are consistently very tough. Not sure about the toughest.

He might be the only one who's built a course so tough that it was bulldozed before it even opened...

« **Reply #16 on:** October 13, 2007, 06:50:43 PM »

Put my vote down for Pete Dye. That man gets inside your head.

« **Reply #17 on:** October 13, 2007, 11:11:27 PM »

I'd vote for Norman and Dye 1 and 2.

After that it's a toss-up. Most of the younger generation of architects is building courses that are hard, in one way or another.

« **Reply #18 on:** October 13, 2007, 11:18:43 PM »

I have limited exposure, but Palmer's designs have been wicked hard for me. There's nowhere to miss and a lot of forced-carry approaches. Might not be hard for a scratch golfer, but for mid-to-high handicappers the courses can be frustrating. Maybe I've just played the wrong ones.

I find Dye courses and RTJ courses and C&C courses to be challenging as well.

Come to think of it, just about every course is tough for me.

« **Reply #19 on:** October 13, 2007, 11:30:04 PM »

Dye, certainly #1. Steve Smyers did some toughies [Wolf Run, for instance].

Hate to tell you, but Art Hills has 3 very tough courses in KY. Persimmon Ridge, Olde Stone, and Eagle Ridge.

I think modern courses are much tougher overall. Just an impression, since I have played so few classics.

Doug

« **Reply #20 on:** October 14, 2007, 12:30:09 AM »

Based on a fairly small sample I'd have put Nicklaus courses pretty high on the list. Pete Dye would be up there as well.

The thing about Dye is that I've never felt his courses were difficult just for the sake of being difficult. Sure that was part of the charm, but most of the ones I'm familiar with aren't just hard to be brutal tests.

I would never have put Kingsley up there with the hardest courses I've played. Its hard and a good challenge that tests all parts of the game, but not overly so. #2 and #9 might be the exceptions to that with being really hard par threes.

« **Reply #21 on:** October 14, 2007, 03:08:57 AM »

Maybe we were still jet lagged, and call me crazy, but Bernhard Langer's Portmarnock course was difficult when we played it... dunno about the rest of his.

Other than that, i'd have to agree with Dye. With Kiawah, Sawgrass, and Whistling Straits alone...

« **Reply #22 on:** October 14, 2007, 03:39:58 AM »

Wouldn't a more interesting question be, Who designs the most interesting tough courses?

And, are there common factors shared between interesting tough courses (Oakmont/Carnoustie?)that tough for tough's sake don't possess?

« **Reply #23 on:** October 14, 2007, 07:53:28 AM »

The most interesting tough courses: Gil Hanse.

The toughest courses: Pete Dye.

« **Reply #24 on:** October 14, 2007, 07:59:19 AM »

Also good, and too downscale perhaps to mention here, is Ed Ault for tough and interesting IMHO.

Golf as it 'Ault' to be .........

Doug

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