[Matt_Ward]

Many courses I've visited in the last few years love to feature the downhill holes in order to give the player the all encompassing look. To be totally frank -- I've gotten quite bored by these endless creations -- particularly the par-3 type with fronting water hazard and side bunkers.

I've played a few modern courses that have uphill holes and if done correctly are quite an addition to any layout. Before going on forward I'm not talking about uphill holes that are double diamond steep to climb -- the 10th at the new Raven Club in Silverthorne, Colorado is a good exmaple. Sometimes these uphill holes feature graded rises that "work" the player into the demands without being abrasive -- in essence, you play the hole not necessarily head-on to the grade, but from a diagonal angle.

A few abrasive examples exist in the Poconos region (PA) that feature greens stuck on top of a ridge that really are stupid because everything falls off to sides and there is little in terms of proportionate outcomes to the execution of the shot you make.

What role do uphill holes have and how can they be incorporated into a design to maximize its potential? Do uphill holes even have a role? If memory serves I think of Southern Hills which has the long holes playing downhill and the shorter holes playing uphill and usually into the prevailing wind.

Appreciate the comments from the treehouse.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt;

I really like how William Flynn handled the question of the uphill holes on a pretty severe property like Lehigh.

In this case, Flynn's answer to getting the golfer back to the upper portions of the property?  The short par four.

You see it at the wonderful 2nd, the brilliant 8th, the punchbowl 14th and although each of them are steeply uphill, anticipatory thoughts of a possible birdie ahead quicken the step against the rising grade!

[David Wigler]

Matt,

7-12 (save 11) at Capilano are brilliant examples of incorporating uphill holes.  This work that Thompson did here is fantastic with a true mix of uphill and downhill.

[Mike Hendren]

Mike,

Flynn used that same approach with the short two-shot third at Cascades heading uphill to reach the tee for the drop-shot fourth.  This seems to be a regular strategy for the golden agers.  Ross used the same approach with the 16th at Holston Hills.  

It's been fifteen years since I played Wild Dunes and while it is much maligned, I did like the short par four tenth that played directly uphill along a ridge to a skyline green.

I also like the par four third at Golf Club of Tennessee, a very natural uphill hole of about 400 yards.  The key there is catching your breath after walking up to the tee from the second green!

[SPDB1]

15 @ PV
12 @ TCC (composite - also Flynn)

[Chris_Clouser]

Matt,

Southern Hills has 3 holes that play dramatically uphill and two or three that you play slightly uphill.  Of the dramatic ones, 4 and 9 are mid-length par 4s and 18 is a very long uphill hole on the approach to the green.  All three of them play up towards the hill that the clubhouse is on so a lot of the thinking that Maxwell put into those holes was to provide a dramatic view from the clubhouse of the players coming in.  Maxwell also seemed to almost always have at least one other hole play up to this hill on his designs (see Old Town as a good example).  

I don't think he as a general rule had short to mid-length par fours play uphill.  But he would often finish his courses with longer difficult uphill par 4s.  Maxwell also would use par 3s to traverse these elevation changes, the 4th at Dornick Hills is a great example of this.  

Reading through the posts, I think you can see that the great designers seemed to be able to incorporate this into their designs almost seemlessly and that is one of the things that seperate them from the other guys over time.

[GeoffreyC]

Matt- A pet peeve of mine is the lack of uphill par 3's on modern courses.  Tillinghast was sooo good at these.  I just played Alpine CC last week and it has only 3 par 3's but two of them are uphill.  One is a short 9 iron hole that insists that the green be hit or par is nearly impossible.  The other is a longer shot with a huge dropoff to the right.  Fenway's 11th is another really good one.  The visual intimidation of seeing only part of the flagstick is a feature that is being lost.  Gil Hanse built a good slightly uphill par 3 at Applebrook and it works really well.

Uphill par 4's like #4 at Plainfield simply don't get built anymore either.  Routing problems that were solved by tricky and interesting holes in the past are I guess solved by the bulldozer these days.

[Jeff_Lewis]

The 18th at NGLA goes uphill relatively severely, particularly on the second shot. Given the availability of property along the bay (where the practice range is) was this the best possible choice for the routing of the hole?

[A_Clay_Man]

Spyglass Hill utilizes the uphill hole extremely well and with impressive variety. #8 is a great example of difficult simplicity.

Has anyone else ever noticed that on many Military courses the bias is towards long uphill holes and downhill 3's. The Presidio (SF) is one that really shows this.

[Mark_Huxford]

You see it at the wonderful 2nd, the brilliant 8th, the punchbowl 14th and although each of them are steeply uphill, anticipatory thoughts of a possible birdie ahead quicken the step against the rising grade!

 
Mike, very good.

Can you think of an example where the sequence of holes provides an opportunity to note the pin location on such a green from an earlier point around the course?

[John_Lovito]

Was the short uphill par 4 a common Ross trait?  I ask because the two Ross courses near my home, Plainfield and Echo Lake, both have this feature.  Holston Hills was also mentioned in an earlier post, are there many other examples?

[Mike_Cirba]

Mark;

Good question!

In the case of the 2nd and 8th, I'd have to say no, although on both holes, hole location is pretty evident from the approach area.  

The strategies from the tee on each are fairly clear as well, and largely unaffected by hole location.  On the second, it's a question of whether one feels safe trying to hit driver over the mogul field in the center of the fairway to a flat lie on top, with OB looming close right and a quick fall off to the left along with a humpbacked fairway.  Laying back with an iron creates a pretty unpredictable second shot.

On the 8th, the right to left diagonal angle of the green favors a drive up the right side (challenging the OB boundary) in almost any conceivable instance.  The fairway also tilts right to left, so you really need to try to work the ball against the grain, so to speak.

On the 14th, if one is clever, they can spot the hole location from I believe both the 8th fairway, as well as the 11th tee.  Here, hole location matters a great deal, because the canted green really can vary the type of approach shot you might want to attempt.

[ChipOat]

For some reason, par 5's seem to be well suited for uphill terrain.

Examples: PVGC#15 (the best ever built??), Merion#2, Oahu CC #12

I'm sure there are many others.

[Mike_Cirba]

Chipoat;

Two really good uphill par fives are #9 at Aronimink and #9 at Rolling Green.  

18 at Huntingdon Valley is a rare example of an exceptionally good long uphill par four.

John Lovito;

Another really good Ross short par four uphill is the 3rd at Aronimink.  

[Matt_Ward]

Good stuff from everyone!

I personally like what Pete Dye is doing -- having long par-4's that actually play uphill in order to "force" the long iron or even wood approach. I don't mean having holes like a reverse ski slopes, but it's something more architects can do to gain "effective" yardage.

Jim Engh also did a good job with the closing hole at Sanctuary following this design concept. The hole plays 435 yards from the tips, but it requires two solid shots to get to the putting surface.

For whatever reason -- it just seems that many architects go out of the way to avoid creating such holes. Is that an unfair generalization or is it because many architects believe most golfers just don't like them?

Geoff C:

You are so right about Tillie and what he did in this area. Agree with your take on the par-3's at Alpine, but I also believe the severe uphill 10th is just a major problem. The original hole was even more severe because of tree expansion than what you find now. Granted, Tillie didn't have many chocies given the desire to access property for the back nine so he "wasted" one hole in order to get there.

I also agree that seeing only the top half of the pin is also a rather under-utilized aspect in design today. That aspect clearly puts "psychological" pressure on the player in getting the ball to the target. Think of what it's like to get near the pin on the 7th at WF / West or the 17th at BB.

Another good hole of this type is the 18th at Forest Hill Field Club in Bloomfield, NJ -- also design by Tillie and plays 220= yards. To give you an idea of reference -- as good as the closer is at GCGC I believe the 18th at Forest Hill is no less an equal and in my mind is a tad tougher.

[NAF]

Matt,

The Bergen Record recently had a page devoted to the 10th at Alpine explaining the hole..I still love playing it..Yes it is 100 feet from tee to green uphill and you can ski down it in the winter...But it is only 340yds (playing about 380) and it is the hole I have birdied most this year..The green is also interesting although it has limited pin placements due to size..I'll see if I can scan in the article..

[Jeff_McDowell]

Jeff Brauer has a very long and nice uphill par 4 at Giant's Ridge. The hole plays uphill gradually from the landing area to the green. It's a nice change of pace, because you have to hit a long and difficult approach shot that forces you to shift your weight uphill.

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