News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Tom MacWood (Guest)

Risky Business - SI article
« on: August 10, 2002, 10:28:03 PM »
There is an article on Rees Jones - entitle 'Risky Business' -  in the latest SI. The article revolves around Rees' redesign of his father's Hazeltine the 2002 PGA venue. I have not played the course, is it any good? I remember it from its last US Open and I remeber it as an improvement over the original, but overall I wasn't very impressed - I don't recall a burning desire to run out and play the course.

The article also states that Rees restored Bethpage and resuscitated Baltusrol, The Country Club, and Pinehurst #2 - is that an accurate assessment?

The article acknowledged Jones's monicker of Open Doctor and proclaimed him also the 'PGA Physician' for his work at Hazeltine, Sahalee, Atlanta AC and Medinah (on going). My first question is that a good thing, being known as a major's plastic surgeon? And is there something distasteful about an architect who makes his name off of others original work? I'm not sure that is type of person you'd want resuscitating your old course if you had any admiration for the original architect.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Risky Business - SI article
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2002, 05:28:15 AM »
Your post made me think immediately of Medinah and more specifically #17.

How many times have they changed that hole?

 If it wasn't broke why did they ever fix it?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Risky Business - SI article
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2002, 08:29:23 AM »
Tom MacWood,

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

Architects don't walk in off the street and make random changes to a golf course.

CLUBS contract with and retain architects for a specific purpose.

CLUBS have Committees, Boards and Memberships who bear the burden of approving or disapproving of any changes to their golf course.  An architect can't make ANY change without approval by the club.  (understanding that approval is not unanimous, just majority, or by those in power)

CLUBS through their Memberships arrange for the funding to pay for any alterations to the golf course, and at most clubs, assessments usually bring substantial debate.

Once they're retained Architects have considerable influence in what gets changed or remains, but the club has to approve
ANY and ALL modifications to the golf course.

The CLUB bears the SOLE/SOUL responsibility for the architecture of their golf course, not the hired gun.

And, since you want to single out Rees, I'll bet you all the tea in China, that if Rees Jones was retained at GCGC, the 12th hole and the 7th hole would be essentially restored by now, to the satisfaction of the membership and architectural world.

Perhaps you should create a thread on:
MISSED OPPORTUNITIES.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Risky Business - SI article
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2002, 08:49:53 AM »
Pat:

I thought this thread was about Rees Jones the "Open Doctor" and the "PGA Physician".

That particular concentration may be an architect working on a golf course but I'm certain it's a bit more than just a club calling up an architect and asking him to do something, like a restoration you cited at GCGC.

Opens and PGA Championships entail a bit more than just a club calling an architect. It clearly entails entities like the USGA and the PGA of America, some of their wishes and demands and I really don't think either of those entities are going to get involved or would have any responsibility if GCGC called Rees Jones and asked him to restore the course or the 12th hole.

There's no doubt the club bears some responsibility in any case but the "Open Doctor" as a particular moniker or nomenclature is more than a bit different--and that seems to be the specific of Tom MacWood's question!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Risky Business - SI article
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2002, 08:51:26 AM »
Tom:

It was a good article.  However, the gist of it was how Rees and Robert Jr. have never felt that they somehow never felt that they made their father "proud", that somehow he was always better than them.  Now, after Rees' US Open work, he feels he has finally "made it" in the eyes of his father.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Risky Business - SI article
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2002, 10:01:54 AM »
Paul
The was interesting sub-plot to the article, it should be noted that 'approval' occured in 1990/91 and it revolved around Hazeltine, which goes back to one of my questions - is Hazeltine a noteworthy design either pre- or post-Rees?

The article began by describing Rees disapointment in Tiger failing at Muirfield and derailing what was to be the "Jones family triumph" and the article ended on a similar note:

  "'It would have been a glorifying experience for me to have two of my redos be part of Tiger's slam, but he's only 26. Maybe he'll do it in 2005 when I've got the Open at Pinehurst and the PGA at Baltusrol. Maybe that'll be the year.'
   That would be a Jones family triumph worth waiting for."


Baltusrol and Pinehust? That article claims both were in need of 'resuscitation' by Rees -- is that accurate? Is there something distasteful about an architect who makes his name off of the original work of others?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Weiman

Re: Risky Business - SI article
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2002, 10:33:57 AM »
Paul Richards:

I apologize to Tom MacWood if this post is off topic, but since you raised the subject of Jones' "family" business, I'll share a story I heard recently while drinking beer in Ballybunion.

Whatever one thinks of the Cashen course, the stories of RTJ's involvement with building he course are the kind that can bring tears.  I'm told that one reason the course meant so much to RTJ was the fact that the club made arrangements for his two sons to visit Ballybunion for the course opening.  After an extended period of estrangement, the experience meant the world to Mr. Jones.  He wanted nothing more, apparently, than for his two sons to be there with him.

The person who told me the story was quite close to the project and spent lots of time with RTJ.  That was twenty years ago, long before Rees became the "Open Doctor".  He sure made it sound like RTJ felt his sons "made it" at least that long ago.  How sad it is when parents can't express the love they feel in their heart.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Risky Business - SI article
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2002, 11:20:04 AM »
Tim:

No doubt that is sad the way things turned out for the Jones'.

The Cashen Course is a big disappointment to me, but I appreciate the story you related since sometimes the "human" side gets passed over when all of us at GCA only worry about the golf.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Risky Business - SI article
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2002, 01:03:15 PM »
TEPaul,

Neither the USGA nor the PGA can force architectual changes upon a golf course, with or without an architect.

Neither the USGA nor the PGA can force a CLUB to select an architect.  

Rees's work at Baltusrol, The Country Club and other OPEN sites has been well received, and I would defy you to identify some of the changes made at those clubs, since he retained the design integrity of the original architect, despite Tom MacWood's claim to the contrary.

The CLUB doesn't bear "SOME" responsibility as you claim,
they bear ALL OF THE RESPONSIBILITY.

Long after the USGA, PGA and COMPETITORS leave the course, the members are left to play it, daily, for the rest of their lives, THEY have the ULTIMATE responsibility to preserve the design integrity of the original architect.

If Rees provided successful modifications to past OPEN venues and preserved the design integrity, why wouldn't you hire him for modifications to future OPEN venues ?

Any departure from, or restoration to the original design integrity has to be approved by the CLUB, just like at
GULPH MILLS.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Risky Business - SI article
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2002, 01:25:31 PM »
Tom MacWood,

What exactly do you find distasteful about an architect participating in the remodeling process?  IMHO, there is nothing distasteful about remodeling or renovating the works of others as an architect!   If there were, all of us would have "blood on our hands."

The simple facts are that greens, bunkers, tees, and almost every aspect of a golf course wears out, and needs periodic repair and rebuilding, hopefully under the hand of a sensitive architect.  In additon, to varying degrees, tastes change, (including the current trend to restoration) new turfgrasses arrive (hence, the primary need to redo greens at Pinehurst, I believe from Bermuda to G-2 bent.) and needs change - a course suitable for an old membership may need to spruce up to stay comptetive for younger members, or it may be going after a major championship, which has its own set of unique design criteria.

Whatever the reason, remodelling a golf course to fit a current need is almost a separate challenge from designing a new one, and worthy of a golf course architect's time and attention, for what, is usually a thankless job!  Members, internet dicussion participants, and in the event of a tournament course, tour pros, the biggest critics going, all discuss the changes with a few very definite points of reference - how do the changes affect my game, and how do they compare with what was there before!  Even though the rebuilding is necessary, there are many fond memories of what was there, even if it didn't happen to be perfect, or in perfect condition.

If I am Rees Jones, I would be very proud of my record in preparing a course for the most visible championships in the world.  Of course, having done so many, it is inevitable that some will be received more warmly than others, but he has had many successes, like Brookline, and Hazeltine.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Risky Business - SI article
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2002, 03:02:49 PM »
Jeff
I find it distasteful when an architect attempts to build a career/reputation on the original work of others.

And I'm not crazy about projects that ignore the genius of the designer who came before them. I have no problem if an architect takes credit for a sensative restoration (is that the case here?) - in that case they are basically acknowledging the genius of the original architect, taking a back seat. (If you have the skill required to thoughtfully restore a great course, does that mean you can design a great course? I'm always suspect of an architect whose considerable portfolio of new designs is overshadowed by his remodeling work)

Likewise if you want to take credit (or the blame) for a redsign - for example your redsign of Maxwell's Dornick Hills or Egan's redesign of Pebble Beach or Rees redsign of Bethpage/Hollywood/Congressional/EastLake/et al - feel free. But lets be honest and accurate in our depiction of the situation. By all means if you improved the golf course take the credit, but if you screwed up a great course or weren't able to bring it back to its former glory, you deserve to be criticized by any and all golfers - be they on the Internet or writing for a golf magazine.

And the whole concept of an Open Doctor (or Majors Doctor) has generally been bad for the preservation of important works of golf architecture, and has had a negative effect on many designs that don't even host majors and normally it isn't because the golf courses are thread bear. Being an Open Doctor is a prestigious postion and leads to important commissions, increasing the temptation to misrepresent the situation and increasing the temptation to tinker with excellent designs. RTJ built his career on being an Open Doctor and his son is following in his foot steps.

If you added new tees to Chicago GC and altered a couple of bunkers and they hosted the Walker Cup the following year - would you be proud of the fact they were using 'your' golf course? Or would you say this ain't my course, this is Raynor/Macdonald course? Or worse if you chose to ignore Raynor and redesigned Chicago GC, redoing the entire bunker scheme, would you claim that you were restoring the lost work of Raynor/Macdonald? By doing so you might get the commission to 'restore' St.Louis, Shorecares and Old White and pretty soon we wouldn't have much of Macdonald and Raynor's work left to enjoy.

I've always thought Flynn, Tillinghast and Ross were responsible for The Country Club, Baltusrol and Pinehurst - I didn't know they were part of the Jones triumph.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Risky Business - SI article
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2002, 03:14:32 PM »
Tom MacWood,

As I look around, many aspiring architects began their careers as restoration/modification specialists, getting experience and a reputation prior to being given the opportunity to design a course from scratch under their name.

It is a form of apprenticeship, and I see nothing wrong with it.

Do you feel that Doak, Pritchard, Forse and Hanse gained their lofty status through other architects works, or does it just apply to REES ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Risky Business - SI article
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2002, 03:55:12 PM »
Pat
The article states Rees restored Bethpage and resuscitated Baltusrol, The Country Club and Pinehurst. What exactly of Tillinghast's design did he restore at Bethpage? And were those other courses in need of resuscitation, is that an accurate assessment?

In my opinion there is a difference between a sensative restoration and the typical activities of an Open Doctor. There is great deal of prestige in being an Open Doctor - Oakland Hills and ANGC were the springboard for RTJ's career, the same could be said for The Country Club and Rees. The temptations involved in preparing a major venue are not the same as restoring a fine old course like Skokie or Lehigh. You can parlay redesigning a Congressional or Bethpage into millions of dollars in new commissions, and the same is true when claiming siginificant credit for Baltusrol and Pinehurst.

I thought the springboard of Doak and Hanse's career was their new design work. From what I understand Pritchard and Forse are restoration specialists, what are some of their better original designs? You have respect selfless architects who sacrafice their own design work/prestige to restore and preserve the important works of others.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Danny

Gil Hanse's course Applebrook
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2002, 04:10:39 PM »
Ed, you are in for a treat w/ Bulle Rock.  I am playing in a member guest tomorrow at Applebrook in Malvern.  Have played there several times and really enjoy it, although I think the par 3's are weak. Two are uphill shots w/ blind green's and mid to long irons.  It is all walking which is phenomenal, but there are houses and condo's lining several fairways. I don't know if I'd be ponying up the $100k+ to join. To me, Lookaway in Buckingham (Rees Jones) is a much better golf course. I mention it, because both are equity clubs w/ similar sized memberships.  That is a treat 12-18 are spectacular. Any thoughts from the experts on either of these two?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Risky Business - SI article
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2002, 04:29:22 PM »
Tom,

When a course gets renovated or restored, it should be a credit to both the original and renovating architect, and it usually is portrayed that way.  If changes are minor, like a few tees, the remodel architect may never get mentioned.  However, if the changes were good - good enough to become part of golf history, like Bethpage, I do believe Rees should view it as a triumph.

These things work themselve out.  For example, some clubs prefer to keep their Golden Age heritage intact, like Seminole, even if it is partially illusion, so they hide even an architects larger involvement for their own reasons.  Others like the glory of being associated with a modern top architect, and perhaps overtout, based on actual changes, what their role was.

Of course, architects uses their projects, including the famous name clubs, to build credibility for similar future work.  The architect does get credit/blame - which is great incentive to it "right " to establish our reputations and livelihoods.  In the case of Rees, his  unofficial title of "Open Doctor" pretty well describes what he would likely does to a potential US Open course.  Where is the dishonesty there?

Again, the goals of a project may mean some old features get lost.  But, even viewed through the narrow preservationist lense,  in the cases of Brookline and Pinehurst , I haven't heard talk that he wasn't sensitive to the original design, and really very little regarding Bethpage.  In those three cases, the course retained the existing character, quite well.  

I am not familiar with most of Rees' renovation work, so I can't comment on others.  Since he is doing Medinah No. 3 this year, and that was the first course I played, I will get a feeling of being "emotionally involved" in the outcome, as many here are elsewhere, and may change my tune a bit!

As often as not, Rees' US Open changes don't diminish the glory of an old course, they enhance it in the eyes of most.  By using the best of what the original designer put there, and keeping the basic style, but fixing the few bad holes, and moving similar bunkers to new postions, he makes courses US Open ready (if thats his charge) so it can be seen by millions that wouldn't have otherwise been able to.  

So, while the course is changed from its original form (it probably already was anyway) there are lots of benefits to lovers of classic architecture.  Who do you think spurred love of classic courses more - the USGA by updating classic venues, or the PGA by playing at all sorts of courses?  And, if the old courses were ripped apart, how would that affect the prevailing public view of the classics?

I think Rees' work has been good for classics.  He did it at Brookline in 1988, well before we had heard of C and C, or Doak, who made it a specialty before they could get much new course work on their own.  Rees did it the other way around, and given the relative fees involved, it had to be for love of the game and old courses.

Of course, cynics will debate both that statement, as well as the results versus those of others doing similar restorations, but thats okay.  I think that's what this web site was developed for! ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Risky Business - SI article
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2002, 05:46:23 PM »
Tom MacWood,

You can't hold an individual responsible for what an article in a magazine says about them, or their work.  
You need to address the author, not the subject.

I don't want to retype my original response, but in summary,
EACH CLUB bears total responsibility for any changes to their golf course.

Another perspective that you may not be aware of is:
Sometimes the concept of an architectual change takes form within the membership, gains a life of its own, and becomes a club mandate to the architect that is retained by the club.

One only has to look at the destruction of several courses in the Met NY area to see what I'm talking about.
Montclair, Metropolis and other courses felt that TENNIS was the rage and an integral part of the club's future in the 1970's, and they wanted additional TENNIS COURTS constructed on their property.  In many cases the golf course was ruined by destroying holes to accomodate this membership mandate, which turned out to be one of the biggest mistakes any of these clubs ever made.
BUT, it was their decision and mandate, and their mistake to make, and they sure did it.

Alterations to golf courses aren't as simple, nor as black and white, or source identifiable as you seem to think.

At my club in New Jersey, some other friends of mine, and myself stay on the Board for one reason, to try to prevent the disfiguring of the golf course, to preserve the design integrity of a neat little golf course.  If I told you of all of the absolutely frightening ideas presented for consideration, you wouldn't believe it.  Even a recent Master Plan, which radically altered the golf course, almost became a reality.

Building ponds in front of 235 yard par 3's with OB right and woods left, moving two greens, creating two lakes in front and next to two nice par 5's. making the 18th green an island.
The list goes on and on, and unfortunately, every once in a while, an idea takes on a life of its own, supported by some in positions of influence or power, and the golf course takes another hit, another disfiguration.  

It's not easy retaining or restoring the original architecture.

Gil Hanse did some very nice work at Fenway, Ridgewood and other courses.

In my business, if a client wants to go against the advice I offer, I have them sign a release.  Why should I be responsible for an act that I opposed, that was mandated by the client ?  The same can be said of situations architects face.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Risky Business - SI article
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2002, 05:57:34 PM »
Pat,

I am familiar with how the 12th hole at Garden City was originally. I'd love to see something close to that brought back.

How does the current 7th differ from the original design?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Risky Business - SI article
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2002, 06:12:33 PM »
JSlonis,

The 1936 7th hole had the second fairway further to the right where a long trench bunker paralleled the fairway, similar to the one on the right of # 3.  In addition, a bunker was in front the mound right and short of the green, in addition to the one behind the mound.

This made the 11th tee and 10th green safer, put more risk/reward into huging the right side on the second shot, and provided a better angle of attack for the third shot.

This moving of the fairway back to the way it was would also allow us to lengthen the 11th tee, bringing the series of cross bunkers more into play.

The next time you visit, look at the old photos on the wall, especially the aerials in the locker room next to the computer.
Then walk over and take a look when you play the hole.

Three holes benefit from a restoration that basically entails a slight alteration in the mowing patterns and adding sand to the right side trench.

But, despite prudent reasoning and the photographic evidence, resistance persists.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Risky Business - SI article
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2002, 07:13:56 PM »
Jeff
What was Rees' role at The Country Club? Was Baltusrol and Pinehurst in need of resuscitation as the article claimed? And based on his resuscitation do you think it is accurate to claim 2005 as the 'Jones triumph'?

Do you think Rees' Bethpage is superior to Tillinghast's or should that even be a consideration? Did he retain the best of what Tillinghast put there, did he keep his basic style, did he fix the few bad holes, and did he move similar bunkers to new postions?

What exactly has Rees done to benefit the classics - East Lake, Hollywood, Bethpage, Equinox, Monterey Peninusla, Lake Merced, Ridgewood, Baltusrol, CC of Virginia, Skokie, Sea Island, Congressional - would you consider this 'renovation' work good for the classics? With friends like that who needs enemies?

One man's legitimate criticism is another man's cynicism.

Pat
I believe I am addressing the author.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike (Guest)

Re: Risky Business - SI article
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2002, 07:35:52 PM »
Jeff or TOm,

You will have no problem finding people who have played Bethpage in it's current state and no shortage of people who can compare it to its condition of the last twenty years myself included (had the pleasure around 35 times) but finding someone who played it in its early stages will be difficult.
We locals all remember the way NY State let our little jewel deteriorate and indeed some of the original bunkers still haven't been located but Rees has done a magnificent job bringing this monster back and keeping the intentions of Mr T or Mr Burbeck depending on who you are talking to alive. He did make a couple of changes with todays players in mind but not so you'd notice. The scores speak for themselves.

Mike
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Risky Business - SI article
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2002, 07:47:29 PM »
Tom,

I believe Rees did a total redo of the greens and bunkers at Brookline in preparation for the '88 Open.  He made all the right comments about not leaving his stamp, and from what I have heard and seen, he didn't.  At the same time, I know he repositioned bunkers, etc. to make the course play as the USGA desired for the Open.

I don't know anything about what he did at Baltusrol.

Pinehurst has gone under many changes, as you know.  Before Rees, Ed Conner topoed the greens and computer mapped them and tried to put them back exactly as was after regrassing.  I  believe Nicklaus' group redid some greens in conjunction with another regrassing, and I played those.  Those were enough different in character to be noticeable.

I think Rees redid those, but I can't be sure, using the old topo maps to get them back to original type contours.  However, Pinehurst tested a lot of grasses, and selected G-2, one of the newer heat tolerant bents, and I wouldn't be surprise if Rees had to make a few value judgements to soften the contours.  If he did, I can't tell, and I don't recall anyone talking about drastic changes to No. 2 for that Open, so he didn't leave his mark.  I don't know if he'll go back to Pinehurst for any major changes for the 2005 Open, since the last one was so well recieved, but he may add a few tweaks, like new tees.....for all I know, he is talking about changes he made the last time.  And speaking of credits for others work, off hand, I can't recall him getting any for the 1999 Open, can you?

As far as Bethpage, much was made about how he extended bunkers to keep Tillies original bunker locations rather than rebuild bunkers closer to the greens.  That led to the exaggerated noses that weren't quite Tillie, and is one of the value judgements that are open to criticsim.  In any event, his changes, and moreso the course set up, worked well to make for an exciting open.  By all accounts, bunker design really didn't figure in the outcome as much as the roughs.  He even kept a carry bunker that some felt kept the field from challenging long hitters.

In any event, the changes fit the purpose of the here and now, and allowed BethPage, which regardless of design quality when it opened, was in no shape to host an open, to successfully host that open, and in the process spark a paradigm shift in thinking towards public courses.  I contend that those items alone allow Jones to take huge credit for the project, regardless of whether you feel he should have remodelled the bunkers in a slightly different way.

The positives coming out of that tournament far outweigh the positives of a pure restoration, if even that could be acheived.  Now, I don't begrudge any one their opinion, and you may very well feel that another architect may do better restorations.  If so, they are in part building on what Rees did at Brookline, as well as builidng on several centuries of architectural knowledge and modern aerial photos and other technology.

But grant me this.  I have no fear of contradiction when I say that Rees is the greatest living Burbeck restorer today! ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Risky Business - SI article
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2002, 08:23:55 PM »
Jeff
From what I understand with the exception the 17th - which is out character with rest of Brookline - the greens were not altered and the bunkering restoration was done in-house. But if you wish we'll give Rees credit for the sensative restoration -- that's OK by me (Do you think they recaptured Flynn's original flair or should that even be a consideration) What are some of his other sensative restorations post-Brookline?

Do you think softening Ross's contours at Pinehurst should be considered a design triumph? I don't recall him taking credit for Pinehurst either (but it sure looks like he is now along with Baltusrol). And with the track record of other Open Doctor redos maybe we should give him credit for what he didn't do - perhaps it was triumph of sorts.

I didn't find this years US Open all that exciting, but that is open to debate. Do you judge a restoration based on a single weekend in June, weren't both Open's at Hazeltine exciting? The course (Bethpage) is no doubt a huge improvement over the neglected course and it was certainly critical success. As a professional architect do you think my comparison to Tillighast's original work went overboard? At least lets call a spade a spade - that was not a restoration - that was right out of Remodel U.

Burbeck or Tillignhast, whoever, its now a Rees Jones, like East Lake, like Equinox, like Lake Merced, like CC of Virginia, like Congressional, like.....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Risky Business - SI article
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2002, 08:29:10 PM »
Tom MacWood- you state

"What exactly has Rees done to benefit the classics - East Lake, Hollywood, Bethpage, Equinox, Monterey Peninusla, Lake Merced, Ridgewood, Baltusrol, CC of Virginia, Skokie, Sea Island, Congressional..."

Please tell us which of these course you have seen in person. Especially those you've seen before and after the work.

Thank you
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Risky Business - SI article
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2002, 08:55:04 PM »
Geoffrey
Equinox (pre), Monterey Peninsula (pre), Lake Merced (pre), Skokie(post) and Congressional (pre/post). I'll ask you the same question what exactly has Rees done to benefit the classics?

You are an outspoken fan of his work at Bethpage - do you consider Bethpage a resotration as the SI article claimed and if so what of Tillinghast's work at Bethpage was restored?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Risky Business - SI article
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2002, 10:02:43 PM »
Tom,

Your first post asked three questions, namely is it a good thing to be an Open Doctor, is it distasteful, and is Rees the one you would want (paraphrase here) doing a "pure" restoration of a classic.

I answered that it is not distasteful.  I implied that he is one who could do pure restorations, but that others may be better qualifiied, having built that trade while he continues to do Open work, which, certainly to my mind requires compromise of the original designs to suit present purposes.  IMHO, those changes could make the course better, and don't automatically make them worse.

In your last post, you ask what he has done for the classics.  I have already answered that, stating that he and the USGA have brought positive attention to them, allowed them to bask in the glory a major provides, and for most tastes, incorporated the amenities and shot values that modern players may expect from a top flight club.

If he softened contours at Pinehurst, and I am not sure he did, they certainly roll the way I remember them, so I consider it sucessful.  And the US Open, by all accounts, had competitors playing Pinehurst the way Ross intended, with the chipping areas a prime deterrant to par.  If your only complaint is that it may not be exactly, exactly the way Ross left it, what can you do?  It started changing in 1948, after Ross death, and when Tufts started a heavy topdressing program to turn the greens into the domes they are today.  So, why make Rees the only heavy?

I couldn't find your comparison to Tillie's original work in this thread.  However, I concede that perhaps Doak would come with a different style than Rees.  Better?   It is hard to tell, since both haven't worked on US Open courses, or maybe even the same course.  I believe Rees will have more tendency to interject improvements over pure restoration, which I think is the point your are driving at.

However, the degrees cross the spectrum, and as someone said, are not as black and white as you portray.  I certainly do not believe BP was a "out of remodel U."  (I take it from that comment that if ASGCA took in Satan as its next member, you would consider that a big improvement over new recruits of the last 35 years?  :o)

Certainly, Torrey Pines and others may be more properly called Rees courses now.  I have only played Lake Merced on your list - both before and after - it is now a Rees, but frankly the course I played before wasn't as good as after.  Could he have taken the photos on the wall; in the clubhouse and redone the bunkers Thomas remodelled there?  Is that the best route for Lake Merced?  Should they put aside their personal desires to satisfy an architecture wonk from Columbus, Ohio?  Tough questions.  

So, we can agree on much, w/o being distasteful ourselves.  But, since their are smarter guys than me, perhaps you should clearly define what your idea of benefitting the classics means, rather than ask vague rhetorical questions.  Perhaps I could answer better then, although, frankly, I doubt it.  It is certainly an area that has potential for debate.  I think I understand your desires for "pure" restoration, but a narrow focus easily allows us to overlook the positives of what is accomplished by renovation of a course, beyond design.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back