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JESII

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Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2007, 11:23:53 AM »
Powell,

Considering you see it as already bifurcated, what difference would a competition ball make?

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2007, 11:31:38 AM »
Jeff, the quotes I gave you were taken from articles that Tilly wrote specifically dealing with aspects of course design and his philosophies. They were not part of a marketing campaign for his services. As they were published in Golf Illustrated they were definitely written for "the masses."


I'm just curious:

If Tillie (and other architect/writers of the so-called Golden Age) hadn't imagined that potential clients were out there hiding among "the masses," would they have written their magazine articles?

My suspicion, of course, is that everything any of them wrote was, more or less directly, in the service of "marketing" their services.

But I'm willing to have my suspicion routed (pun belatedly recognized).
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Powell Arms

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2007, 11:33:55 AM »
Powell,

Considering you see it as already bifurcated, what difference would a competition ball make?

thinking that if the competition ball flew 10% shorter, older courses wouldnt be obsolete or strecthed like ANGC for pros and newer courses would not all need to be built to 7500 yds

Obviously, the other side of the arguement is that if the distance is simply frozen now, all of the changes have already been made and courses won't need to be longer

Please keep in mind that my response was meant to answer the original question (although perhaps not directly on point for GCA)
PowellArms@gmail.com
@PWArms

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2007, 11:37:30 AM »
My point is that too small of a fraction of players actually "obsolete" golf courses for us to worry about...golf course operators need to find the self respect to handle what they have with a little more care and respect...

Powell Arms

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Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2007, 11:43:17 AM »
My point is that too small of a fraction of players actually "obsolete" golf courses for us to worry about...golf course operators need to find the self respect to handle what they have with a little more care and respect...

Fair enough, although I wonder if they ahve the self discipline to build a course tipped out at 6800 yards, or do they fear that the lack of tips makes them a non-championship course, and that the 99.9 % of the public that will never use the tips anyway avoid the course because it can't host the PGA or would be eaten up by Tiger, etc.

Well, it appears I managed to be either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated, or both.
PowellArms@gmail.com
@PWArms

RJ_Daley

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Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2007, 11:45:49 AM »
So far, what I get is that Jeff is being brazenly provocative in his use of irony to sarcastically draw light on the issue of green design. And he has found the perfect comedy partner in the point-counterpoint routine.

And Phil is being astonishingly intellectual in his ability to use his wealth of knowledge of Tillie to go to the quotes to demonstrate the proof of Jeff's ironic misdirection.

Nice going fellows...
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

John Kavanaugh

Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2007, 11:47:53 AM »
My point is that too small of a fraction of players actually "obsolete" golf courses for us to worry about...golf course operators need to find the self respect to handle what they have with a little more care and respect...

After seeing the new 7200 yd tees at Wolf Run I must protest the above statement.  The course needed the new tees a lot more than it needed women members.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2007, 11:59:04 AM »
RJ,

In all seriousness, and not meaning disrespect either Tillie or his supporters, my statements weren't made in jest, nor do I think they are totally misdirected.  

To quote the PGA Tour, "These guys were good".  Its really more a comment on the fact that us modern gca fanatics possibly analyze these things more than they did.  In reality, not every stinking little contour was really thought out in the construction time frame as it might be over the next seventy years.

But I do think that the comic element does address gca with all the "seriousness" it deserves.  So, lets keep it coming!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ryan Farrow

Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2007, 12:01:38 PM »
Apache Stronghold is an all around better golf course than Oakmont CC.  :o

I think that statement caused Jordan Wall to call me stupid, so....
« Last Edit: September 26, 2007, 12:04:17 PM by Ryan Farrow »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2007, 12:08:35 PM »
Jeff, well then IMHO, Phil just kicked your ass.  

I'm not intellectual enough to go to the quotes as Phil can, but I know the writings left behind by all those ODGs and the writers of the time that I've read, point more in the direction of deep consideration they gave for all the dramatic contours they incorporated into their green designs, and LZs, where the shots and angles were directly correlated to the contours found or constructed, and not haphazard happenstance.  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2007, 12:42:11 PM »
My point is that too small of a fraction of players actually "obsolete" golf courses for us to worry about...golf course operators need to find the self respect to handle what they have with a little more care and respect...

After seeing the new 7200 yd tees at Wolf Run I must protest the above statement.  The course needed the new tees a lot more than it needed women members.


That may well be the case John...do they have women's tees? are they acceptable to the women that play there? More importantly, how many other sets of tees do they have? How is play broken out among all of the mens sets? How did the new tees effect the overall experience? Is it cramped with the new length? Is there room for more?

John Kavanaugh

Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2007, 12:56:34 PM »
The new championship tees at Wolf Run are fantastic and seamless.  I did not study the locaton of the womens tees because I could care less.  
« Last Edit: September 26, 2007, 12:57:54 PM by John Kavanaugh »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2007, 12:58:22 PM »
What was the purpose of putting in the new tees at Wolf Run?

John Kavanaugh

Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2007, 01:06:33 PM »
The course plays far too short at 6900yds...They needed more fun.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2007, 01:09:51 PM »
The course plays far too short at 6900yds...They needed more fun.

For whom?

John Kavanaugh

Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2007, 01:14:40 PM »
For 90% of the people who would join a Smyers course over any of the other options in Indy.  I will not apologize for those without the game (financial or athletic) who make poor choices.  Some of us outlive our choices which is why senior tees get built.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2007, 01:19:11 PM »
And therefore it was a sensible decision...


My club is considering adding 30 - 50 yards to a good 560 yard par 5 because when it is firm...and...when we host a top flight amateur event a couple of guys are able to hit 7 irons into the green...it runs significantly downhill, and they really do keep it firm...but...the best part of the hole is standing out in the fairway trying to figure out how to get it on the green...even if it is a 7 iron...sad days...



Cabell Ackerly

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Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2007, 01:25:08 PM »
For 90% of the people who would join a Smyers course over any of the other options in Indy.  I will not apologize for those without the game (financial or athletic) who make poor choices.  Some of us outlive our choices which is why senior tees get built.

Wolf Run was too short (not enough fun) for 90% of the members at 6900 yards?...

John Kavanaugh

Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2007, 01:46:55 PM »
For 90% of the people who would join a Smyers course over any of the other options in Indy.  I will not apologize for those without the game (financial or athletic) who make poor choices.  Some of us outlive our choices which is why senior tees get built.

Wolf Run was too short (not enough fun) for 90% of the members at 6900 yards?...

Yes, for people who should join a course like Wolf Run.  The mistake is not made in which tees you play so much as where you play.  It makes me sick to see a great course dumb itself down just to pay bills.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #44 on: September 26, 2007, 01:53:53 PM »
These are not courses on an island John...they're businesses...how many people are there in the northern suburbs of Indianapolis with a 5 handicap or better AND the time AND the means to join a new country club?

Make the handicap cutoff for 7000 yards 8 if you really want...
« Last Edit: September 26, 2007, 01:54:26 PM by JES II »

Phil_the_Author

Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #45 on: September 26, 2007, 02:20:52 PM »
RJ,

I don't know if I'm put off more by your being "astonished" at my intellectualism or that you consider me as being intellectual!  :o

Jeff, the flaw in your logic, at least about Tilly and probably about some of the other ODG's is that you are looking at them through 21st century eyes rather than putting yourself back into the culture of their day. This is a common problem that people have when they try to understand the history of anything.

You asked a very good question, "BTW, define numerous?  I make 30-60 site visits. I bet Tilly was 3 to 6, making it much harder to control every aspect..."

Each job was different as the work that the customers would contract for was defined by their budgets. That seems so logical, but consider, saving $1,000 in 1918-1928 was a significant sum of money where today it is but a minor change order. A number of clients wanted Tilly, Ross, and others to give the design and then leave the construction to themselves. Tilly preferred to design courses where he controlled the construction process rather than just giving a set of prints and strongly insisted on this. As a result, most of his designs were constructed with his full knowledge and approval.

Now earlier, I used 5 Farms as an example and will continue to as it is quite representative of how he worked.

Tilly visited the site more than a dozen times throughout the project. you mentioned that you visit your work 20-30 times; how much time do you spend on site when you do this? Aren't many of these visits just fly in and back out?

Tilly would spend longer stretches on site, so even where he would only visit 5 or 6 times, the overall time spent was far closer to what you spend then what you might imagine.

For example; when he contracted 5 Farms, he stated in the contract that, "I will arrive at the club on the morning of Wednesday, June 18th, to begin my preliminary work and it should be possible to have the courses staked completely within two weeks..."

Tilly would often have mail and telegraphs forwarded to wherever he was stopping so that all of his projects would continue in a timely fashion. For example, on one occasion he wrote to the 5 Farms committee and told them if they had need to contact him he could be reached in Babylon, New York, where he was also building a course.

Because he spent longer periods of time on site when he was there, it enabled him to carefully examine the work that was being done in light of what his plans called for. He wrote the committee at 5 farms that, "I find that he [Robert Scott] has followed my directions faithfully and well…"

Remember, the original contract called for him to design and build two courses. It was changed to one as a result of the club members who preferred tennis. In fact his original design for the present 5 Farms course had to be redone when they decided that they needed 40 tennis courts, a number of which would be on portions of the property that he had already planned to use for the course, and later on a Polo field.  

You also are mistaken in your assumption that, "I take his wide variance of style from course to course as proof that he left a lot of details to whatever construction crew was on board..."

Tilly designed his courses for the land it was to be built on. He did not believe in template holes; in fact he wrote that it was his opinion that to do so was the wrong way to carry out a proper design. That is why, though he greatly liked a number of the courses that CB McDonald designed and wrote about them with great praise, he still took exception to this design philosophy.

Dan, you asked, "If Tillie (and other architect/writers of the so-called Golden Age) hadn't imagined that potential clients were out there hiding among "the masses," would they have written their magazine articles? My suspicion, of course, is that everything any of them wrote was, more or less directly, in the service of "marketing" their services."

Again, just like Jeff, you lack a clear understanding of the day and how Tilly, and others, obtained their work. Most of it came to Tilly as a result of networking his friends and acquaintances and then because of the reputation his courses garnered.

For example, Shawnee was a good first design, but it was Tilly's friendship with many of the players of his day that allowed for the Shanee Open (Eastern Open) to be a success from the very first one in 1912. This, in turn, brought his name as a designer out across the country by the word of mouth of all the players who came there to play.

I would love to see Wayne write an article about the real effects that Philadelphia area golf had on the spread of golf course construction in America. So many fine players and who also would end up relocating elsewhere.

A good example is Cameron Buxton. It was when he relocated to Dallas that he persuaded those locals who wanted to build a great cliub for themselves that they should hire his good friend Tilly, and so Brook Hollow was born.

Many of the great commissions in the teens and twenties were awarded because of connections.


So again, you asked, "If Tillie (and other architect/writers of the so-called Golden Age) hadn't imagined that potential clients were out there hiding among "the masses," would they have written their magazine articles?"

The answer is yes as Tilly had begun writing about golf more than a dozen years before he ever designed Shawnee. We have found an article dating back to 1898 that included photos of St. Andrews that he had personally taken.

Tilly was into any and everything golf related and his writings were both a source of pleasure and revenue for himself. That is why your, "Suspicion, of course, is that everything any of them wrote was, more or less directly, in the service of "marketing" their services..." is incorrect; at least in Tilly's case.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #46 on: September 26, 2007, 02:36:09 PM »

Tilly was into any and everything golf related and his writings were both a source of pleasure and revenue for himself. That is why your, "Suspicion, of course, is that everything any of them wrote was, more or less directly, in the service of "marketing" their services..." is incorrect; at least in Tilly's case.



Great post...this last thought grabbed me though...just because he did not design his first course for a dozen years does not exclude Tilly from writing with the thought that it may put his name in front of someone that might let him do just that...

How would you compare and contrast Tilly's earliest writings with the Confidential Guide by Tom Doak?

John Kavanaugh

Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #47 on: September 26, 2007, 03:15:31 PM »
These are not courses on an island John...they're businesses...how many people are there in the northern suburbs of Indianapolis with a 5 handicap or better AND the time AND the means to join a new country club?

Make the handicap cutoff for 7000 yards 8 if you really want...

As long as I can afford I will continue to try to avoid the paychitecture courses and frequent the art that is left in the game.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #48 on: September 26, 2007, 03:18:52 PM »

Tilly was into any and everything golf related and his writings were both a source of pleasure and revenue for himself. That is why your, "Suspicion, of course, is that everything any of them wrote was, more or less directly, in the service of "marketing" their services..." is incorrect; at least in Tilly's case.



Great post...this last thought grabbed me though...just because he did not design his first course for a dozen years does not exclude Tilly from writing with the thought that it may put his name in front of someone that might let him do just that...

How would you compare and contrast Tilly's earliest writings with the Confidential Guide by Tom Doak?

That's exactly what I had in mind, JES II, with the parenthetical "more or less directly." Thank you for putting it so succinctly.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated..
« Reply #49 on: September 26, 2007, 03:19:46 PM »
That's all well and good, but I took you at your word that the move from 6900 to 7200 benefited 90% of the membership/prospective membership and Cabell challenged that...how would you respond to him?

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