[Sean_A]

I have been re-reading a bit of Pat Ward-Thomas.  I came across this passage about Peter Thomson.  "He will never become a professional in the full meaning of the term, giving lessons, serving members, and so on...".  I found this very interesting because P W-T wrote this around '59 or '60.  For some reason, I was under the impression that touring pros had long given up the club work.  I always looked to Henry Cotton as the pivotal player in demonstrating that one could earn enough money without a club job.  Mind you, the man worked very hard and travelled a ton throughout Europe - winning loads of titles.  This in part helped pave the wave for his European architectural work because he was so well known on the continent.  The man also wrote many books.  

In a large way, Cotton was the first modern professional.  This is why I find it so surprising that P W-T would still be referring to a "professional in the full meaning of the term".  However, evidently, Peter Thomson was a bit unusual.  When did it become more or less a given that touring pros and teaching pros were completely different endeavors?  Who was the pivotal American player to help create this divide?  Are there examples of successful touring pros also teaching in the 70s or 80s?  

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

certainly henry cotton was an exception... around the late 50's there definitely weren't many (or any?) purely touring pro's in the UK anyway... peter alliss has also written about this... can't answer the question of when it became more usual although i suspect it was sometime around the palmer / player / nicklaus exhibition match days and the increases in money that came with them...

...so i guess when P W-T wrote that, just touring would be seen as a dereliction of duty...

[Phil Benedict]

I think Hogan/Snead represent the transitional generation.  By the time Arnie came along, tour pros' club affiliations had pretty much lapsed.  The final split between the PGA of America and the Tour occurred during the Palmer/Nicklaus era, although it had certainly been perculating long before that.

Snead of course maintained the Greenbriar/Homestead connection almost until he died, although I doubt he was giving lessons in his prime.  He was promoting the resorts.  Hogan had club affiliations as well during part of his career, but I think they had lapsed by the time he hit his prime.  The conflict between the PGA of America and touring pros began to rise to the surface during the Hogan/Snead era.

[JC Jones]

I would argue that club/teaching professionals are the professionals and the only thing "professional" about touring pros is that they collect checks and therefore not amateur.

I wouldnt mind removing the "golf professional" title from the tour players.

[Rick Shefchik]

I agree with Phil and Ally. Both Hogan and Nelson were attached to clubs as assistant/teaching pros at the beginning of their careers, but after World War II, they'd become full-fledged touring pros in the current definition of the term.

I'd also presume that a majority of the other pros at that time needed a club affiliation to make ends meet, and that didn't end until television helped the Tour take off in the early '60s.

[JC Jones]

I think Hogan/Snead represent the transitional generation.  By the time Arnie came along, tour pros' club affiliations had pretty much lapsed.  The final split between the PGA of America and the Tour occurred during the Palmer/Nicklaus era, although it had certainly been perculating long before that.

Snead of course maintained the Greenbriar/Homestead connection almost until he died, although I doubt he was giving lessons in his prime.  He was promoting the resorts.  Hogan had club affiliations as well during part of his career, but I think they had lapsed by the time he hit his prime.  The conflict between the PGA of America and touring pros began to rise to the surface during the Hogan/Snead era.

A colleague of mine just told me a story about Snead at the Greenbriar.  Apparently his dad was on vacation there, and got paired to play with Snead as they were both singles.  Throughout the round he talked with Snead about courses and the golf swing, etc.  He also asked Snead for a few pointers on his swing.  A few weeks later he received a bill from Snead for $500 for lessons.

[Ken Moum]

I wouldnt mind removing the "golf professional" title from the tour players.

A friend of mine's wife put it rather nicely when he was toiling on a mini-tour, but wasn't giving it the effort she thought it demanded.

She said, "You need to decide whether you want to be a professional golfer or a golf professional."

He turned out to be a heck of a golf professional and is currently at The Golf Club at Red Rock in South Dakota.

Tiger is a professional golfer...... not a golf professional

Ken

[Alan Carter]

I wouldnt mind removing the "golf professional" title from the tour players.

A friend of mine's wife put it rather nicely when he was toiling on a mini-tour, but wasn't giving it the effort she thought it demanded.

She said, "You need to decide whether you want to be a professional golfer or a golf professional."

He turned out to be a heck of a golf professional and is currently at The Golf Club at Red Rock in South Dakota.

Tiger is a professional golfer...... not a golf professional

Ken

Ken, you are 100% correct.  There is a very clear difference between a "golf professional" and a "professional golfer".  The difficulty lies in that the Professional Golf Associations of the world have not done a good enough job of informing the general public just what the difference is.

[JESII]

Everyone knows the difference, even if they mis-label it...Also, everyone knows the difference between Tiger and the guys toiling on the mini-tours killing time the same way they know the difference between Bob Ford and the club pro equivalent of the non-professional...



I always thought Hogan kept a club job throughout his career...is this not the case?

[Phil Benedict]

Everyone knows the difference, even if they mis-label it...Also, everyone knows the difference between Tiger and the guys toiling on the mini-tours killing time the same way they know the difference between Bob Ford and the club pro equivalent of the non-professional...



I always thought Hogan kept a club job throughout his career...is this not the case?

I read one of the bios about Hogan a while ago.  He got into club manufacturing in the '50's by which time any club affiliation would have been symbolic at most.  He may still have kept one though, especially if there was any monetary consideration involved.  The manufacturing business was his principal activity outside of tournament play.

[JESII]

Thanks Phil, I guess that does make sense with his club company.

I love the referrence to Hogan being asked about a young tour pro he had probably never heard of by the name of Jack Fleck...apparently Hogan said 'he must be a good player, he plays our clubs...'

Obviously prior to 1955(?)!

[Phil Benedict]

For a guy who didn't have much of a sense of humor, Hogan said some pretty funny things, although he didn't mean to be funny. My favorite was when his playing partner made a hole in 1 on ANGC's 12th hole.  Walking off the green Hogan turned to the guy and said that was the first time he had ever birdied the hole.

It has been my observation that really good golfers are often in their own little world on the golf course, but this takes the cake.

[JESII]

For a guy who didn't have much of a sense of humor, Hogan said some pretty funny things, although he didn't mean to be funny. My favorite was when his playing partner made a hole in 1 on ANGC's 12th hole.  Walking off the green Hogan turned to the guy and said that was the first time he had ever birdied the hole.

It has been my observation that really good golfers are often in their own little world on the golf course, but this takes the cake.

There was another time that a guy by the name of Bill Hyndman was playing with Hogan during The Masters and after his hole in one on #12 Hogan asked him what he made when they walked off the green...from Hyndman's mouth I heard that one.

[Phil Benedict]

Jim,

I think you got the story right.  Hogan was a fascinating guy.

[JESII]

Another one I've recently heard that cracks me up...and is about Snead as much as Hogan, and possibly their relationship more than anything...

During the Saturday 36 of the US Open in the morning round Hogan hits his shot from the fairway and as the caddy is replacing the divot he says to him "be careful with that, we're coming back this way this afternoon". At some point later Snead is told of the line and says "if he's that f***ing good, tell him to miss the divot the second time"...

Priceless!

[Peter Pallotta]

JES - thanks for those anecdotes. Ah, to have been hanging around back then.

On Jack Fleck, I wish I could remember what exactly and where I read it, but Mr. Fleck really tells the story well, both in terms of a certain feeling of destiny he had, but even more interestingly in how he describes Ben's demeanour before and after the final round. He gives the impression of Ben somehow knowing or even 'blessing' the result. I can't say "I'll never forget that account" cause obviously I have, but there was something memorably spooky about how Fleck remembers that time.

Peter

[JESII]

Seems consistent with Hogan knowing very well who Jack Fleck was well before anyone else had heard of him.

Really fun stuff to hear some of these stories...

Hyndman was an old man when I was first starting to take the game seriously...old meaning mid 70's, but disappointed if he shot his age...and he would play nine holes a couple afternoons a week with us kids and tell these stories. Can't replace that very easily.



He told one about playing in one of his Walker Cup matches (he played 5 or 6 of them) and opening the match paired with Tommy Aaron. After all the plotting and planning they had agreed that Aaron would tee of on the odd and Hyndman the even in the lead alternate shot match the first morning...well, after all the pomp and circumstance it's time to go and at the last minute Aaron tells Hyndman he can't hit it...what do you mean, you can't hit it?...too nervous, you gotta go...but Tommy, we planned this all out, the odd holes are perfect for you...no, no I can't do it...alright, I'll go.

Then with this awesome glint in his eye he would tell us he drove it so far down there that all Tommy had was a little pitch to the green...

Great stuff!

[Kalen Braley]

I've always kind of felt that the main difference between Teaching Professionals and Touring Professionals, is the same as College Professors and those who Work in the fields that college professors teach about...

And the difference is "Those who can't do, teach!"

[Alan Carter]

Everyone knows the difference, even if they mis-label it...Also, everyone knows the difference between Tiger and the guys toiling on the mini-tours killing time the same way they know the difference between Bob Ford and the club pro equivalent of the non-professional...



I always thought Hogan kept a club job throughout his career...is this not the case?

I don't think they do know the difference.  I don't think they really know the difference between Bob May and Bob Ford.  I think that most people think that Bob Ford plays golf everyday, shoots 66 everytime and doesn't do a whole lot else.  (Granted,  Bob Ford is a great player and likely does shoot his fair share of 66's)  You happen to be a person that maybe does understand the difference between a Professional Golfer and Golf Professional, but, I'm quite confident that you're in the minority.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Karen-

Gonna have to disagree with you on that one. I understand where your going with your comparison, however I don't think it makes much sense.

If you know any great teaching professionals then I think you know how well these guys acctually know the golf swing.

These 'guys who can't hack it'(golf professionals) do some pretty  good things for the game you love.

[David Stamm]

I remember Jim Murray telling the story of how he overheard Hogan ask a caddie for the yardage. "Well Mr Hogan, it's about 147, 148 yards", he replied.


"Make up your mind", he responded.

[Kalen Braley]

Karen-

Gonna have to disagree with you on that one. I understand where your going with your comparison, however I don't think it makes much sense.

If you know any great teaching professionals then I think you know how well these guys acctually know the golf swing.

And if you love the game these 'guys who can't hack it'(golf professionals) do some pretty  good things for the game.

Shea,

Its actually Kalen...but not a biggie..

I should have put the big smiley faces after that statement, because it was meant mostly tongue in check.  But to some extent I think there is some truth to it.  There is no shame in not being able to perform at the top levels, week after week, in front of large crowds, and on difficult courses.  The touring pros really do seem to be the best of best.  Sure there are likely many teaching pros out there who could whip on some of the touring pros in a Monday friendly match, but doing it week in and week out on the big tour is a whole different animal....and yes the worse thing I would imagine about being a tour pro is that pretty much every "game" is an away game.  At least in other sports you are home half the time...

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Kalen-

Sorry about that.

My point is I don't think people realize how well these guys know the game, and how much time and effort these guys have put into the golf game.

Your comparison just seems a bit off.

[JESII]

Alan Carter,

I was making a statement about "Professionalism" in all ways of life, not about identifying golf professionals by name and responsibilities...

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