[Michael Dugger]

I was thinking about rankings the other day, or moreover, our respective perceptions when it comes to what is great, what is not, etc....

Over the past ten or so years we've seen Sand Hills built, Pacific Dunes, Friars Head and Cape Kidnappers.  

Add Barnbougle to the mix, or Whistling Straits......it doesn't really matter.

All of those courses are veritible masterpieces; utterly stunning to behold layed out over an inspired setting.

But I've come to believe that no matter how spectacular the next new course is, it's never going to be perceived "better" than PV...or CP....or PB.

What does a guy have to do nowdays?  Build a golf course on the moon?  In the middle of a volcano?  

What amazing landscape has yet to be uncovered?  How long until we see something truly unique and spectacular again?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael,

While I've played, enjoyed and really like Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes and Friar's Head, I don't think they're the equal of Pine Valley.

Perhaps others feel the same, and if so, that would explain why PV remains on top.

[Michael Dugger]

Patrick,

That's totally fair, PV certainly is worthy.

But is it the apex of gca?  COULD something surpass it?  

And what would it take?

[Mike Sweeney]

Seriously, that land of Trump's in Scotland looks awesome. I doubt they will get to use the best land and I still think he has a ways to go for permitting and financing but that land is really attractive:

http://www.trumpgolfscotland.com/gallery/gallery.asp

Who knows what is in China for land?

[wsmorrison]

Someday, I believe Shinnecock Hills will.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne,

While SH is a fantastic golf course, I don't know that it has the variety in the topography and in the water features that PV has.

On the other hand, it has something that PV will never have.
Pronounced prevailing winds

[Mike Sweeney]

Wayne,

While SH is a fantastic golf course, I don't know that it has the variety in the topography and in the water features that PV has.

On the other hand, it has something that PV will never have.
Pronounced prevailing winds

I think Michael's concept is a new course such as Sand Hills II. Shinnecock vs PV is an exercise in math more than anything else.

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

I don't know in what way different think of surpassing, but I certainly do not think water features are required for a course to be considered superior.  The use of wind, angles, fall-offs, collection areas, the use of existing topography and a variety of ground/air and air demands (such as PV) make up for water.  

Frankly, as long as the trees are not pared back and the sandy waste areas remain groomed, I think the course falls enough short of its potential and former position that it should fall a couple of spots.

As far as being a test for all levels of golfers, I don't think PV matches up well with Shinnecock Hills.  I absolutely love Pine Valley, it is one of my three favorites in the world.  There is no overall experience that can touch it.  But it is not completely bullet-proof.

[wsmorrison]

Mike S,

Yes, I figured that's what he meant...but then again the question is, "Will a course ever surpass PV?"  So it is open to existing courses.  As great as Sand Hills and Friars Head are (the only ones mentioned I have experienced), they are not in my mind at the same level as Pine Valley.

[Dan Boerger]

I think it was the esteemed wine critic Robert Parker who said, "It's a lot more important who you have dinner with than what wine you have with dinner." So in one sense (a very real sense, IMO) who and not where one is golfing with goes a long way in my book.

That said, what none of these new courses have, and simply could not have, is the sense of history the eminate from Pine Valley. Think of the designers that were inspired by it, the golfers that were awestruck by it, how (like so many other great courses) it's withstood the test of time and (from my personal experience) hasn't been subdued by technology (5 is as difficult a 1 shot as you'll ever find and 7 is a 3 shotter for all).

[ed_getka]

Patrick,
   How does water come into play at PV in a way that adds to the quality of the course? I know there are  some water carries there, but I'm not aware of  any that are very  daunting for a golfer  of  your level. What one  or two water carries do you think add to the course?

Over the years it seems most pretty good golfers think Shinnecock is the preferred course from what I have heard.

[Peter Pallotta]

Michael
I think that's a great question, for lots of reasons. To me, what the question really asks is:

"What is the criteria by which we measure architectural greatness, and will that criteria ever change?"

Judging from the fact that PV has held its #1 spot for so long, that criteria seems fairly fixed (as it should be, I think); and basically immune from changing fads/fashions.

But I just wonder 1) if that will always be that case; and 2) if there are not courses (perhaps several) built more recently that already meet each of the criteria "establshed" by PV?

Peter
 

[TEPaul]

"Will a course ever surpass PV???"

Who knows, there sure are some great golf courses out there but in my opinion Pine Valley deserves to be where it is.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,
   
How does water come into play at PV in a way that adds to the quality of the course?

I know there are  some water carries there, but I'm not aware of  any that are very  daunting for a golfer  of  your level.

Ed, the addition of back tees has made some of them very daunting, and others, without added distance, remain daunting, such as # 5, # 14 and # 15.[/color]

What one  or two water carries do you think add to the course?

The carry on # 5, # 14, # 15 and # 18 and the proximity of the water to # 16 green[/color]

Over the years it seems most pretty good golfers think Shinnecock is the preferred course from what I have heard.


SH has had the benefit of having been selected as the host of U.S. Opens, and as such the golf course has been lengthened considerably over the last 20+ years.

While some length was added for the Walker Cup and in recent times, the fact that PV hasn't hosted a U.S. Open has been a hindrance in some ways to the course optimizing its assets.

Wayne,

I agree that PV is lagging behind SH in the "cleansing" department, but, SH wasn't always on the right track either.

I didn't say that water features were required, only that their use at PV is rather stunning, architecturally and visually.

Sometimes golf courses suffer from inbreeding and/or being isolated from the world at large.  SH's exposure to the U.S. Open has benefited it in some ways, but, not all ways.

Fairway widths have become more important to me as a design asset, hence I believe that shrinkage, be it at SH, Merion or Oakmont is a negative.  To PV's credit they've maintained their fairway widths.  Unfortunately, they've allowed the trees to encroach upon the golf course.  PV could benefit from following some of SH's examples.[/color]

[Sean Leary]

In order for a modern course to surpass PV it would need to be significantly superior, and I don't think that that is at all likely (or maybe even possible). Anything close and the old girl gets the nod.

That being said, Shinnecock is the one course I have seen that gives PV a run for its money.  

[Tommy Williamsen]

Every once in a while when church is boring because I'm not preaching I'll quiz myself on courses.  Recently my ass't went on and on so I had a lot of time.  For me the closes thing to PV is Royal County Down.  The biggest difference is that PV does not have any weak holes.  It may have some holes that are only excellent but most are just great.  RCD has some average hole.  PV does not.  Shinnecock really does not have and poor holes.  All the holes are good.  It just doesn't have as many great holes.  The same can be said for Sand hills, NGLA and the others.  I don't see any courses on the horizon in the same stratosphere. I will be curious to see what happens to Sebonack over the next decade and if they make any changes.  It has most of the ingredients to become a truly great course.  We'll see.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael,

I don't know the specific criteria necessary for a golf course to surpass PV, but, like obscenity, I think I'll know it when I see it.

[Mike Sweeney]

Patrick,
   How does water come into play at PV in a way that adds to the quality of the course?

Ed,

See the 16th hole on the right.



Now see how the green and the approach all point you towards the water. If you play the safe shot off the tee to the left, it feels as if you have to leave the ball 20 yards short to stay in play:

[JESII]

Not to mention the ball being about 6 inches below your feet on most of that fairway...

That shot and 14 are really the only water hazards that come into play though...5 definitely does not, and 15 takes a very poor shot but I guess is possible.

PV doesn't need water though...all it needs is those greens to maintain #1 with me.

[ed_getka]

Mike,
   Thanks for the pix, that  really makes the challenge of #16 clear, and then to have Jim point out the sideslope, I can only imagine how tough that is.

PV is clearly a great test of golf, but can an 11 handicap go there and have fun, or will they just leave with  a headache, because  the shots are just way too much for them to handle?

Patrick,
   You mention 4 carries and #16, but are those carries just from the tips or are they still that daunting even if you play tees appropriate to your length off the tee?
   Jim seems to suggest a couple less than you? It is my understanding that he is an outstanding golfer, but I am curious where the divergence in your opinions come from?

[Mike_Cirba]

In terms of overall great holes, it's virtually impossible to beat PV.  When others suggest Pebble, or even Cypress Point, I have to respectfully disagree.

The scary part is that the visual presentation should be even so much better given the present overtreed conditions.  Part of the reason that PV has been challenged as of late in various ratings seems to me to be that both the recent pedicuring of the sandy waste areas and the lack of an aggressive tree strategy have the course playing a bit more one-dimensionally than architected.

[wsmorrison]

Tommy,

Sorry, but I just don't think 11 (only meant as a temporary hole to Crump) and 14 can be considered excellent holes; most certainly not in the context of the other 16.

Pat,

Even with the back tees, the water is not a daunting feature on either 5, 14 or 15 especially to the golfers that should be playing from those tees.  From the fairway, water is only really a factor on 16.  From the rough or into the wind, the water fronting 18 green could be a factor from the back tee.

Shinnecock Hills doesn't need water at all.

Jim,

Those greens are very special and are a joy to study and to play.  The greens at Shinnecock Hills are being returned to their former dimensions and this will be a very significant improvement.  Imagine if the greens at Pine Valley all became circles or slight ovals with the green surface retracted from falloffs and bunkers.  It would make a huge difference as it does at Shinnecock.  Thankfully they are being restored to as close to what they were as possible given some evolutionary factors.

[Mike Sweeney]

PV is clearly a great test of golf, but can an 11 handicap go there and have fun, or will they just leave with  a headache, because  the shots are just way too much for them to handle?

Ed,

9.8 index and climbing as weekend sports with the kids dominate!

If Pine Valley is overrated in any way, it is toughness. I played the entire course with one ball, no x's and 1 or 2 punchouts. The greens were slower that day so the four putts that you hear about were not around that day. Just need to be a decent sand player.

It is a fantastic golf course, and while Mike C is on target with the trees, it is more aesthetic than playability for me, because it is wide.

[Paul Richards]

one already has - Cypress Point


and, of course, if you go outside the US, Royal County Down as well.....

[wsmorrison]

"It is a fantastic golf course, and while Mike C is on target with the trees, it is more aesthetic than playability for me, because it is wide."

It isn't just aesthetics on 12, it is about visibility and temptation.  The way the line of instinct to the green is hidden, there is no temptation and it is obvious to just hit it out to the right to avoid the defense set by the secondary/tertiary tree lines.

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