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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Proposition: >= 1 blind approach & >= 1 reverse slope green required
« on: September 14, 2007, 06:57:23 PM »
per new 18 designed to keep the variety and entertainment value in golf.

Ladies and Gentlemen, start your debate.

Leading the way for the opposition to the proposition, I call upon Jeff Brauer and Mike Young, if they would be so kind.

Supporting the proposition, I call upon Tom Paul, if he would be so kind.

Others are welcome to the fray.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Proposition: >= 1 blind approach & >= 1 reverse slope green required
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2007, 07:56:10 PM »
If you seek a glutton's meal of fall-away greens on a modern course, you shall dine on the Gunnamatta!



Mark
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Jim Nugent

Re:Proposition: >= 1 blind approach & >= 1 reverse slope green required
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2007, 11:38:18 PM »
Mark, how many fall-away greens are there at SAB?  
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Mark_F

Re:Proposition: >= 1 blind approach & >= 1 reverse slope green required
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2007, 04:46:58 AM »
Jim,

There are five holes that have fallaway greens to some degree - 3,5,8,9,16.

I hope Garland's post gets some interesting debate - I love the idea of a fallaway green with a blind(ish?)approach.

The 12th a Macrihanish is one of my favourite holes, because of the perplexity of how to best get your approach up onto the green.

Mark B:

Did you manage to play the course in amongst all your picture taking? :)
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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Proposition: >= 1 blind approach & >= 1 reverse slope green required
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2007, 09:23:27 PM »
Anyone out there think average courses for average people should forego these features?

So far we have had a resounding response (3 posters) that think these things should be in all courses.

Apparently Tom Doak thinks they should go into courses, but you can't put much stock in that since he is just getting by.
 ;D
« Last Edit: September 16, 2007, 09:24:13 PM by Garland Bayley »
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Phil_the_Author

Re:Proposition: >= 1 blind approach & >= 1 reverse slope green required
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2007, 10:05:23 PM »
One of the great three-shot par-fives in the world has a blind third (or second) to a reverse-tilt green...

the 4th hole on Bethpage Black.

If done well this is a wonderful design
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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Proposition: >= 1 blind approach & >= 1 reverse slope green required
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2007, 10:07:18 PM »
Garland,

I really don't disagree. My new course in Lone Oak, TX has a straight fallaway green, based on Ross 12th at White Bear, and of course, I have built numerous Redans over time.  In fact, the 12th at the Quarry is a fallaway green as well.  I would say that I look for one opportunity per course to do such a thing, but hate for those approaches to be blind, so I only do it if its a downhill approach so the green is visible and the green site ground naturally falls away.

As to blind approaches, I don't care for them, unless its optional (two par 5 2nd lz areas, with one where you can play where you can see the result and another blind approach that may net you the green, for example).

When I have an uphill blind approach by necessity, I tend to mark the green with flanking bunkers each side to assist direction. I have built semi dell holes where the approach may be blind from the wrong side of the fw, and Dolly Parton/Mae West greens where visibility is only attained when in the, uh, cleavage.

I think you may have misconstrued my point on the "could you design a decent course" thread. I view those kinds of features as changes of pace. I think a few here, given the chance to design a course, might litter the course with such features to "show the world" what its missing.  

I wouldn't do that in large doses myself, but agree those features should be "brought back" in limited doses to edumacate golfers as to the fun golf can be when not totally standardised.  I just don't think, based on my experience, that a course based on all "unique" features would be recieved well.  For that matter, its been said that Pete Dye diluted his own visual impact by being so spectacular on every hole. I feel the same would be true with features now considered gimmicks by most.

But, to your exact wording - you should have approximately one of those features per course - you get no real argument from me, and my work actually supports that, if you care to look.

Hope you had a great weekend!
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Proposition: >= 1 blind approach & >= 1 reverse slope green required
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2007, 01:31:04 AM »
I wouldn't particularly care for a blind approach to a fallaway green as the ability to gauge where the ball will end up is too much of a crapshoot.
  I don't mind that Gunnamatta green though as I distinctly remember keeping my ball up on that tier with my approach. ;D Although that hole isn't what I would call a blind approach as you can see some of the green where your ball will land so it isn't as hard as the hypothetical would be. What makes the pictured hole particularly difficult is the steep slope going into that green so that the margin for error short or long is pretty small.
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"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Rich Goodale

Re:Proposition: >= 1 blind approach & >= 1 reverse slope green required
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2007, 04:24:23 AM »
The 9th at Elie fits the bill.  440 yards from the medal tees, 2nd shot played towards the water with a green hidden behind a 10-15 foot escarpment and falling sharply away from you.  The second shot is normally a 5 or 6 iron, but can be a full-blown wood into the wind and a wedge downwind (with a long and accurate drive).  The only way to stay on the green in summer conditions is to land your second shot short and hope it trickles down to the pin.  However, land it too short and it either stays up or just makes it onto the green, requiring a tricky downhill chip or putt.  Land it too long (or on the green) and it will go through the back, often 10-20yards past the green.  The chip back up the slope, however, will reward the bold stroke, and the better players will always err on the long side when playing their approaches.

I think it is a great hole, even if quirky.  It requires skill, execution and careful thought to get a par, but even the hacker can do so by scuttling three shots towards the green, as long as the last one is of the proper line and length.
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Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Proposition: >= 1 blind approach & >= 1 reverse slope green required
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2007, 06:20:31 AM »
The 9th at Elie is a great example (and a really strong hole).  The 10th, a driveable par 4, also has a blind approach (if you're driving the green!) and a fall away green, with the rocks and sea behind the green.  Again depending on the wind a good drive can run through the green, leaving a chip and putt for birdie or stay short, leaving a much tougher chip.

Thinking about it, the 15th at Elie is another hole with a fall away green, where the approach can be blind depending on conditrions and the line of the drive (it plays over a hill, a good drive on a still day or with a helping wind can clear that hill and a drive to the right of the fairway can leave a view of the green, a drive in the middle or left which doesn't clear the ridge will leave a blind shot.
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In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Proposition: >= 1 blind approach & >= 1 reverse slope green required
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2007, 07:29:07 AM »
I believe Braid grew up playing Elie.  Rich's description could also apply to the 9th at Hainault Forrest lower, a course he designed that I've sung the praises of here before.  You play blind over the crest of a hill and then discover where the flag is today.  The green is narrow at the front pinched by two bunkers and you have to funell the ball along the ground.  However just short of this narrow entrance there's a sudden 4' dip adding more spice to a hole that looks inocuous but plays beautifully.   (There are at least 5 front to back greens on this course.)


« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 07:30:43 AM by Tony Muldoon »
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Let's make GCA grate again!

Rich Goodale

Re:Proposition: >= 1 blind approach & >= 1 reverse slope green required
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2007, 07:44:07 AM »
Great calls, Mark re the 10th and 15th at Elie.  And what a great course!  Last time I played the 10th I carved my drive right (even right of the wee bunker) and my 2nd shot was a little punch 90 degrees to the left of the direction to the hole which, once it paused to change direction, trundled 80 yards down the hill to 10-15 feet from the pin.  As for the 15th, I KNOW that green is driveable, but I can't (yet) convince myself to far left enough to enable that.....

See you tomorrow.

Reeshaarrrd, Le Capitain du rest de la Monde
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Rich Goodale

Re:Proposition: >= 1 blind approach & >= 1 reverse slope green required
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2007, 07:47:11 AM »
Oh yeah, and Tony

Not only Braid, but Douglas Rolland and the Simpson family (Archie, Bob, Jack, Homer, etc.) also grew up at Elie, at roughly the same time.  From what I have read there were some fiercely competitive junior medals in those days.....

rich
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Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Proposition: >= 1 blind approach & >= 1 reverse slope green required
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2007, 08:16:03 AM »
There's a plaque on the wall of the Chapel in Earlsferry (where Elie ends and Earlsferry begins I have no clue) commemorating the fact that Braid was born in Earlsferry.  Since he is credited with designing the Elie links, I have to believe that, unless he was truly precocious, the course he grew up on was not that which is now in place.  
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In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Proposition: >= 1 blind approach & >= 1 reverse slope green required
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2007, 08:28:04 AM »
Quote from: Richard Farnsworth Goodale on September 17, 2007, 07:44:07 AM
Great calls, Mark re the 10th and 15th at Elie.  And what a great course!  Last time I played the 10th I carved my drive right (even right of the wee bunker) and my 2nd shot was a little punch 90 degrees to the left of the direction to the hole which, once it paused to change direction, trundled 80 yards down the hill to 10-15 feet from the pin.  As for the 15th, I KNOW that green is driveable, but I can't (yet) convince myself to far left enough to enable that.....

See you tomorrow.

Reeshaarrrd, Le Capitain du rest de la Monde

I have one up on you, then, since I have driven the 15th (albeit off the Yellow tees).  I find the trick to hitting a really big one is to make sure there's someone (ideally a golfer in the group in front) standing just out of normal range when you hit.  Always works for me.  Fortunately for me when that happened on the 15th at Elie the golfers who were putting when my ball arrived were sufficiently impressed not to give me a hard time when I arrived at the green as they played off the 16th tee.

I suspect the real trick is to carry the ridge tight to the left side and just let the ball roll down the hill.

Chipping or pitching to 10 can be a ball.  Sometimes it can be difficult to understand how a ball can stop short of that green and there are a couple of flattish ledges towards the front of the green which I swear it is impossible to chip to from above the hole.

Fancy entering the Elie Links Championship next year?  At £18 for a possible 36 holes (if you're good enough to make the cut) or £12 for a guaranteed 18 (if you're not going to shoot 75 or 76) it's a cheap way of playing a cracking course for a (relative) pittance and playing off the back tees.  I'd bet it's also the best nick you'll ever see the course in.  Talking to the green keeping staff this August it's clear that the Links Championship is the big date in the club diary and the one for which they aim for the course to peak.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 08:32:38 AM by Mark Pearce »
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In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Rich Goodale

Re:Proposition: >= 1 blind approach & >= 1 reverse slope green required
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2007, 09:17:26 AM »
Mark

The Elie Links is always on my Might Do list.  I've played in it 3 times and even though I've never made it to the 2nd round, they send me any entry form every year.  I did chaperone the eventual winner one year when he shot an elegant 65 in the morning, so I've got that going for me.....

Rich
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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Proposition: >= 1 blind approach & >= 1 reverse slope green required
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2007, 12:11:47 PM »
Quote from: Jeff_Brauer on September 16, 2007, 10:07:18 PM
...
But, to your exact wording - you should have approximately one of those features per course - you get no real argument from me, and my work actually supports that, if you care to look.

Hope you had a great weekend!

Jeff,

Here is my research.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=26316
Although admittedly it is limited, I neither see nor remember either of the features here. (Don't you hate it when I do things like this?) ;)

Also, you have mis-stated the proposition. It says at least one of each, not approximately one of each.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Proposition: >= 1 blind approach & >= 1 reverse slope green required
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2007, 03:58:32 PM »
Reading the Travel and Leisure article on Rustic Canyon reminds me that it is a public course that satisfies this criteria with the 1st green sloping away from the golfer and the 4th being blind.

Is it any wonder why we like it so much here?
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Proposition: >= 1 blind approach & >= 1 reverse slope green required
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2007, 04:02:26 PM »
Garland,

PD meets the criteria as well.  #1 is a blind approach unless you hit a big one up the left.  And #18 green slopes away from you.  Playing downwind, I had a SW in hand for my 3rd and no clue how to stop it anywhere near the front pin position.
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John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Proposition: >= 1 blind approach & >= 1 reverse slope green required
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2007, 04:42:17 PM »
I'm all for entertainment & variety, but features like a blind approach and fall away green have to fit in with the rest of the course.  Long Shadow didn't incorporate either of these, but there's no shortage of fun there.

Maybe the list of entertaining features just needs to be a lot longer and make sure that at least a couple from that list get included.
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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Proposition: >= 1 blind approach & >= 1 reverse slope green required
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2007, 08:28:06 PM »
Quote from: John Mayhugh on October 25, 2007, 04:42:17 PM
I'm all for entertainment & variety, but features like a blind approach and fall away green have to fit in with the rest of the course.  Long Shadow didn't incorporate either of these, but there's no shortage of fun there.

Maybe the list of entertaining features just needs to be a lot longer and make sure that at least a couple from that list get included.

 ??? ??? ;) ??? ???

Fit in with the rest of the course? What does that mean? If there is no elevation change in the course, then you can't have these two features that require elevation change?

Ahhhhh Long Shadow, just think how sublime it could have been if they had just gone a little further.

 ;)
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Proposition: >= 1 blind approach & >= 1 reverse slope green required
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2007, 09:23:04 PM »
The 9th at Elie looking back from behind the green across to Rich's escarpmant.

Rich - 10 to 15 feet? I believe the top of the flag is visible from the fairway. A terrific hole.

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