[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Doak's post about courses with large "Scale" features predominating the "Best New" lists got me wondering;

If a new course opened this year in the Philadelphia suburbs on 120 narrow acres, designed by an unknown Insurance salesman, would it win "Best New" in the magazine that presents those awards annually?

Or, would the comments be something like;

"Too many shortish holes strung together"

"Some good driver holes, but awkward routing has you crossing a public road and then cutting across others to get to most of the back nine."

"Bring a hardhat....and your insurance policy"

"Some goofy greens like the 16th and 17th mar what could be a decent course."

"Walking only policy a bit much considering the finish has you climbing in and out of a deep quarry".

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:

No, I don't think Merion would win a "Best New" award.  Neither would Pinehurst No. 2 or Oakmont or Winged Foot West, if I had to guess.  

However, National or Shinnecock or Pine Valley or Cypress Point would win in a landslide.

Well, maybe Merion WOULD have a chance if the "unknown insurance salesman" kissed enough butt and was adopted by the panelists as a feel-good story.

[Mike_Cirba]

"Not a real "Championship Course".  No par fives after the 4th hole!!"

"Bring your wedge"

"What's with the flagsticks?!@?"

[Eric Pevoto]

"Had to listen to trains all day.  Who builds a course next to train tracks?"

[Sean Leary]

The yardage on number 10 seems off....

[David Stamm]

The yardage on number 10 seems off....

Uh oh. Here we go again.

[Adam Clayman]

Nice Hypothetical. Mike.

I'd say that if it didn't win the award, it would be an indictment of the panelists, not the course.

Anyone who doesnt feel the special qualities of Merion shouldn't be in a position to determine what constitutes greatness.

[jim_lewis]

Any course that requires you to cross a busy street twice (traffic can be bumper-to-bumper during rush hour) would would loose some routing points. And probably should.

Jim Lewis

[Adam Clayman]

 Jim, How is the road considered in the evaluation of the Golf course? It's out of bounds.

Why is that many of the best courses have multiple flaws ad/ or break the formulaic rules apparently widely held by many?

[corey miller]

Does Merion gain routing points if they were to bulid cart tunnels under the road.

[Tom_Doak]

Jim Lewis:

A few years ago I was trying to convince a client to let us keep 18 holes on one side of a road, instead of dividing the course with it.  Usually it helps to go through the top ten courses in the world and proving they avoid the problem.

But --

Pine Valley has a number of private roads through the course, and the 5th and 18th holes hit over the entrance drive.

Shinnecock hits over a public road on the approach to the 12th hole and again on the tee shot at 13.

National hits over a public road at #8 and #11.

Pebble Beach hits across streets on #15 and #16.

St. Andrews has Granny Clark's Wynd.

Oakmont has the Pennsylvania Turnpike, and Merion has Ardmore Avenue.

Ardmore Avenue is the most dangerous crossing of the bunch, though.  The club manager at Stonewall grew up working at Merion and one of his buddies totalled a Cushman trying to get across to the second tee one day.  The only more dangerous foot crossing I've seen on a golf course is at Worplesdon, which crosses a busy road in the London suburbs without a tunnel.

[Adam Clayman]

Don't forget CPC. It crosses 17 mi. Dr. twice.

[jim_lewis]

I agree that there are many classic courses that require crossing various types of roads. I know of none that have such heavy public traffic as Ardmore Avenue, which runs smack-dab though the middle of Merion. All of those courses seem to get a pass when it comes to ratings, perhaps because they are classics. The question posed on this thread is whether Merion would be judged best new private if it were built today.

If it were only one year old, I don't think it would get a pass for Ardmore Avenue traffic. If fact, I am not aware of any highly-ranked modern course that has a heavily travelled road running through it. There may be some I don't know about. In fact, I doubt if many modern architects would agree to route a course with such a condition. It seems to me that it is one thing to have a busy road border a course or a private club road run through the course. It is an entirely different matter to have a serious safety hazard running through the course. I doubt if you could even get it permitted these days.

BTW Tom, Wilmington (NC) Muni also requires a crossing that may even be more dangerous than Ardmore Ave.

Jim

[wsmorrison]

Merion wouldn't be built today and a great many other classic era courses couldn't due to various issues.  It is a good thing they were built when they were or we would not be able to enjoy them as we do today.

Please explain how crossing a street twice is so deleterious in a ranking of the golf course, especially one that was built 96 years ago.  If so, the ranking system needs to be reconsidered.  Better yet, they should all be junked except for Tom Doak's superior system.

I feel bad for the guy that must have been injured in totaling the Cushman.  It is possible that he was a bit too aggressive in attempting to cross the street.  

I know from making those crossings many times, you have to be careful, but a great many local motorists know the deal and are very courteous in letting golfers, caddies and equipment across.  In rush hour the cars are simply not going very fast due to the light at the corner of Ardmore Ave and Haverford Rd but rarely is it ever bumper to bumper and the motorists are inclined to give way as it doesn't impede their progress to do so.  It is during off hours that the cars travel much faster than the stated 25mph and with the hill over the RR tracks, it can be a bit of an adventure even with the posted warnings.

[Mike_Clayton]

Royal Melbourne is another great course to add to Tom's list of road crossings.
The west has four holes - 13-16 on the other side of a fairly busy road and the east crosses two roads.

[SL_Solow]

Lost Dunes is bisected by Interstate 94.  Of course the crossing is achieved by a tunnel underneath the interstate.

[Tom_Doak]

Luckily the tunnel was already in place from the property's previous life as a sand quarry, or Lost Dunes would've been a non-starter.

Oakmont and Merion don't play across the roads in question because they are too busy -- although Merion DID play across Ardmore Ave. until the early 1920's.  But the other courses I cited (plus Cypress Point) are more amazing because you actually PLAY across the roads in question.

[TEPaul]

Mike Cirba:

This very well could be the most clever thread that's ever appeared on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com!

"Golf and golf architecture is a great big thing and there really is room in it for everyone".

[Mike Sweeney]

Depends on the competition.

For the 2007 list Merion East would be competing with Sebonack.

Tom Doak,

Which is better?

[AndrewB]

The road between the first and second of the Old course at Walton Heath is quite busy and cars pass by very quickly.  You have to cross it to get back to the clubhouse after the 18th too, and on the way to the first and back from the 18th on the New course also.

[Mark_Fine]

I've seen about 15 or so 10's and I give one of those sacred numbers to Merion despite its flaws.  It's about as good as golf gets that I have seen (even with its shortcomings).  I can't think of too many new courses that get that number.  

[Tom_Doak]

Merion's always been a ten in my book and I've been on the record for that for 20 years now.

Mike S:  I would personally vote for Merion over Sebonack but I know others who would not.  If you stripped away the backstory of each I think Sebonack might win by the GOLF DIGEST definition.  Of course, I've never agreed with the GOLF DIGEST definition of a great course.

[TEPaul]

The fact is one would not be allowed to design a course today like Merion (and many other old courses) with holes so immediately juxtaposed to roads.

I don't look at those things as architectural flaws at all. I look at them more in the vein of curiosity that things could be done that way back in that day---eg a simpler, more innocent and less litigous time.

Some years ago I had dinner in an old historic inn near New Hope, Pa and I noticed the front door and side of the building was literally a single pace from the well traveled public road. No way in hell that would be allowed if built today.

Later I went to the men's room and it occured to me the mens-room was in that corner of the building that was a single pace  from the public road. It also occured to me the toilet was less than a foot from the wall at the corner of the building that was less than a pace from the public road.

It also occured to me that I don't want to die but if a car crashed into the side of that building and killed me while I sat on the toilet less than a pace and a half from the public road that that would be a pretty remarkable way to go these days.

If I was the proprietor of that Inn I'd put a sign next to that toilet which said: "This Inn is extremely historic. Do you realize you're taking a dump less than a pace and a half from a well traveled public road?"

[TEPaul]

"Of course, I've never agreed with the GOLF DIGEST definition of a great course."

TomD:

I thought you used to run that GOLF DIGEST ranking thing. Do you mean you were their general and you had no real control of your troops? That's shocking. You should've been court martialled.    

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

I used to run the GOLF Magazine ranking -- which had no definition of a great course, because I refused to write one.  I trusted our panel to understand for themselves.

The GOLF DIGEST definition of a great course derives from a general essay written by their founder Bill Davis 40 years ago.  Bill Davis was a really nice man, but he was not the world's leading expert on golf course architecture.  They keep tweaking it to respond to criticism but in the end it's just wrong.

Anyway, I really don't think you measure the greatest courses by checking off the things they've done "right".  It's the things that make them different than other courses which put them on top.

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