[wsmorrison]

Photos from St. Louis CC

1 Green



2 Tee



3 Tee



4 Green (Road Hole)



5 Fairway (newly recovered Principal's Nose)



6 Green



7 Green



8 Fairway



9 Fairway



10 Fairway



11 Approach



12 Tee (Crater)



13 Green



14 Approach



15 Green



16 Green



17 Approach



18 Tee

[Billsteele]

Wayne-Great pictures. Thanks for posting. How does St. Louis compare to other Macdonald/Raynor efforts? Is the 15th a rather gentle version of a Biarritz (I was wondering if the photograph flattened out the depression in the green)?

[Buck Wolter]

Bill-
I'm no SLCC expert but #2 is the uphill biarritz. Not sure how to describe 15 but what you see is a raised tongue in the back of the green. A very wild green -- I'd guess 100 ft deep front to the back of that shelf -- very cool when they have the pin on that shelf but tough to get close to and an easy  4 putt from the front (from personal experience).

Thanks for the photos Wayne.

Buck

[wsmorrison]

Bill,

The 15th is called Narrows.  It is a short uphill par 5 of 496 yards, reachable in two these days by longer hitters.  The green is narrow in the front as well as the upsloped back but it flares out on both sides in the middle.  The green depth is 44 yards.

I'm not sure when the Principal's Nose complex was put in but it isn't in an older yardage book I have nor is it on the Google Earth aerial.  I suppose it was there originally.

My guess is that this is a Macdonald design as it was built in 1914. In my mind, of the courses I've seen, NGLA is in a class by itself.  It is somewhere in the mix with Creek Club, Yale and Piping Rock.  I have yet to see Mid-Ocean or Chicago Golf.

[Joel_Stewart]

Does anyone know how extensive the restoration work of  Keith Fosters is at St Louis CC?

[David Stamm]

Thanks for posting these Wayne. The course looks very good, from what I can tell.

[SPDB]

Joel:
I'm not aware of any work by Keith Foster at SLCC. I do know that Silva did extensive restoration work a few years ago.

[wsmorrison]

I believe the recent work was done by Keith Foster and it must have included the return or design of the Principal's Nose complex on the par 5 fifth hole.  I have not seen early aerial photographs or ground level photos.  I'll take a look in the USGA archives and see what there is in the old journals.

[Mike_Cirba]

Wayne,

The pictures look pretty fantastic.   Thanks for sharing.

[Michael Christensen]

great pics......as crowded as I always remembered it being


what a great place!

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't know how 18 pictures could manage to miss the most interesting feature on every hole.  Missing features..

1. Hard OB right and sloping fairway.
2. The biaritz green
3. The length and elevation change with trouble right.
4. The road.
5. The punchbowl green.
6. The blind tee shot.
7. Death long.
8. The dog leg tee shot.
9. The thumbprint green.

You will have to see the backside yourself.  Pics like these do the greatness of the course more harm then good.

[SPDB]

Wayne:
I am fairly confident that Silva was behind restoring the 5th hole. The main work on this hole was returning the green to the lower location; it had been relocated up the hill where the current 6 tee is located. It is a fun shot to try to carry the PN complex on the right side to allow for a tumbling run up (or more appropriately, run down!) shot to the green that sits in the lee of the PN complex.

I've gotten in a tussle with Pat M. over which hole is more appropriately the "Alps" hole. I believe the 5th is hole is named "Alps," while the 18th is "Apple...something." Although the 18th is clearly channeling the 17th at Prestwick.

[David Stamm]

You will have to see the backside yourself.  Pics like these do the greatness of the course more harm then good.

Huh? Uh, ok...

Yeah, you're right. After seeing these pics I now think the course is more of a  POS than I did before.

[MBL]

Impressive pics, but as mentioned, capturing undulations and elevation change is very difficult in photographs.  This course has an abundance of both.

Brian Silva has been the restoration consultant and continues such.  Keith Foster is not involved in the work.  As for original design, Macdonald was indeed the architect with Raynor providing the engineering: the dramatic greens (particularly 2,3,5,6,7,10,13,14,15 and 16 - Ran has a good synopsis of each) are the best indicator that CBM spent time at St. Louis.

The 15th hole ("Narrows") has a double plateau (not biarritz) green;  the 5th is called "Punchbowl" - due to the green which indeed was returned to its original spot in the early '90s.  No. 18 is an Alps hole, but is called "Oasis".

SLCC is a very special place and those that are lucky enough to play there realize that CBM left a gem.  

[Jordan Wall]

Wayne,

Thanks for the photos.  The course looks really intruiging.

Though I have never heard too much about this course, there look to be great features on every hole.  #11 with the blindish approach, and that cool looking 12th hole to name a couple but really there looks to be some great architecture out there.  Some really fun shots to play, I can imagine.

The bunkering and mounding looks really superb.  I love the directional bunkers in front of the 18th tee.

[Jim Nugent]

David Stamm -- my reaction is a bit like John K's, though not as harsh.  Don't feel the pix give a good sense of the course.  

Another point about what is the Alps: in the late 1960's the 5th green was not in its present location.  It was further back, on a little hill.  You can see this in Wayne's photo.  No punchbowl then, and no Alps.  This was true as late as 1971, the last time I saw the course.  

But I understand the green originally was where it is today.  That seems to me closer to the Alps than number 18, which I think of more as "Fortress".  

btw, here are some of the replica holes...

2     Biarritz
3     Eden
4     Road Hole
7     Short
8     Cape
13    Long
16    Redan
18    Alps?

[David Stamm]

Jim, I understand a statement that would say "the pics really don't do it justice". But doing more harm than good?  

If that was the case, why put up pics at all??

[Evan_Smith]

This course makes me want to move to St. Louis!!!!

[wsmorrison]

John K,

Please explain what harm has been done as none was intended.

First of all, I am not a photographer.  However, I took these photos in high res and they took forever to load into Flikr.  I wasn't about to spend any more time than the hour I did on this.  I have more than 100 photos from SLCC and I wasn't trying to explore every feature but give everyone a general taste for the course by posting a photo from each hole.  Why don't I send you the photos, you edit them and do a proper job of posting them yourself?  Instead of being a prick about it, why don't you just ignore whatever negatives you feel and address what positives there might be?  You come across as an ungrateful lout.  Such callous and snide remarks are not warranted or appreciated.  

[wsmorrison]

1. Hard OB right and sloping fairway

You don't seem to understand what hard OB is.  That fairway is very wide with the tree line more than 30 yards off center.  Even though the intended strategy is to play to the right to avoid carrying the trouble on the left at the green and to hit into the slope of the green, the out of bounds is not a constraining feature at all.  

2. The biaritz green

Granted, I should have mentioned that as the Biarritz

3. The length and elevation change with trouble right.

There is little elevation change tee to green though the hole does carry over a depression.  I think the elevation and trouble right are eminently discernible.

4. The road.

Only you would care about the road itself.  What about the bunker replicating the road between the green and the road?

5. The punchbowl green.

I chose the Principal's Nose because it wasn't there a few years ago.  What is so great about a punchbowl green?  In my opinion it can be one of the poorest green designs in golf when used on a short approach as on this hole.

6. The blind tee shot.

That is a more interesting feature than the green?  It is interesting but hardly as interesting as the green complex.  Let me put into terms you seem to embrace.  If you think so, your understanding does this course more harm than good.

7. Death long.

I think that is inferred from the photograph.  Isn't it obvious that there is "death" all around that green?  That is what perched greens create.  Please tell me what percentage of golfers are long on approach shots to greens.
 
8. The dog leg tee shot.

It is overly narrow and tree lined, hardly a good hole as presented with one of the most boring greens in golf.

9. The thumbprint green.

That's a big thumbprint.  Maybe it was once a thumbprint, now it is two small ridges separated by about 60 feet.  Sorry, that too is only a mediocre green.  The fairway cant and approach view is more worthwhile to a general audience than a so-so example of a template green.

I really do question your understanding of what these photos were intended for and also your specific features you would rather see highlighted.

[John Kavanaugh]

John K,

Please explain what harm has been done as none was intended.

First of all, I am not a photographer.  However, I took these photos in high res and they took forever to load into Flikr.  I wasn't about to spend any more time than the hour I did on this.  I have more than 100 photos from SLCC and I wasn't trying to explore every feature but give everyone a general taste for the course by posting a photo from each hole.  Why don't I send you the photos, you edit them and do a proper job of posting them yourself?  Instead of being a prick about it, why don't you just ignore whatever negatives you feel and address what positives there might be?  You come across as an ungrateful lout.  Such callous and snide remarks are not warranted or appreciated.  

Wayne,

I had no idea that it took an hour to load and post 18 pictures.  I do not own a camera and now don't think I ever will.  I was my opinion that these pictures took what is a complex and interesting course and made it look simple and somewhat bland.  Given the likelyhood that few people will ever get the chance to play StLCC I thought the pictures as posted did the course an injustice.  I think that even through you own admission you could have done a better job if time was more freely available.  Given your follow up comments concerning my feelings on what features were missing you have crossed back to the regions of more good than harm.  I apologize.  Scott Burroughs would be happy to edit and post each and everyone of your pics.

As to what I understand hard OB to be I think one of the top 3 consistent features of the course is a routing that provides OB right on many holes.  It is just a flat killer that never leaves my head the entire round and should not be ignored.  I have never seen anything else like it my entire life on any other course.

[wsmorrison]

Thank you, apology accepted.

I used my brother's camera with the setting for each photo on 3mb.  While the resolution is great, it takes a long time to load into Flikr.  By the way, the Leica D-Lux 2 is an awesome digital camera but I was clearly over matched.  I could have done a better job taking photographs but it was too damned hot (104 degrees and what seemed like 90 percent humidity) to spend much time photographing, carrying, playing and studying.  I spent the most time studying.  My play was crap as my brother can attest.

We see things differently.  Given that so few people will ever get to see SLCC, I thought it best to show general views of the holes and not concentrate on specific features, especially templates; except for the PN since it was either never there or lost for a time.  

There are courses I am familiar with that have hard OB on a number of holes, within twenty feet or so of the fairway.  It isn't uncommon in our district.  The course I play the most has OB really hard right on holes 2,6,7,8,9 and 12 and left on 14 and 15.  

[PThomas]

thanks for posting Wayne, tis a great place

[RJ_Daley]

Ditto, thanks for posting the photos.  But, I mean no disrespect, I can't descern much green putting surface contouring by the pix.  

I'd be interested to hear from anyone that has played StLCC and either or both Yeaman's Hall and Blue Mound.  Going strictly, if not unfairly, by the pix, I think BMCC seems to have more faithful template holes, and more green contouring.

Or, would you say that STLCC is better because it is not the stereotypical templates, but a variation of them?  

[Peter_Herreid]

Why Dick, I'm hurt you didn't think of me when you asked this question!  When my parents foresook their Cheesehead roots, we moved from one beer town to another and took up residence in STL...

While I think both courses are terrific, and deserve to be seen and studied by more of us, I think they both have just enough less-than-stellar holes to be just barely below the top echelon CBM/Raynor designs...

If I have to answer this as honestly as possible, I would have to go with Blue Mound as the more faithful "template"-driven course.  Whether or not it makes it "better" than SLCC is debatable, however, because some of the non-prototypical template holes at SLCC are quite a treat in their own right, and SLCC has a few of the "combo templates" that are a twist on the usual (#5--Alps+Punchbowl)...

Just for purposes of background info, I would cluster SLCC, Blue Mound and Mountain Lake very tightly together in terms of quality level, worthiness for study and fun to play...

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