[Tommy_Naccarato]

Yesterday, I took a work colleague* (*a fancy word for fellow electrician) to Rustic Canyon for a friendly round of golf. By the 2nd hole's enormous buried elephant in the middle of it's putting surface, he was ready to walk off of the course.

I had never played golf with him before, and frankly, after some of his behavior (How dare he berate MY HOME COURSE! )I doubt I will again, but Ron is a genuinely great guy wo is simply in a class of golfers that likes the Sport; Thinks he is a GOLFER by definition, even though at times the bumping of the ball from perfect lies on the beautifully maintained Rustic fairways--FAST & FIRM fairways didn't meet his approval. they weren't in his terms, "Resilient" enough.

Accurate score-keeping seemed to be a problem also. (We aren't talking about a stroke here or there, but two strokes here or there) By the end of the round--when posting his round on the computer, Ron by a miracle of the Golf God Bogieitis, posted a round of 82 from the blue tees--even though he spent the majority of the round playing from the whites. (Only on a few holes was he brave enough to play the blues, and that's O.K. with me up until you post it as from the longer set of tees.) I figure his score may have been around 110 without penalties for the bumped golf balls, counting out of bounds shots, and there were many of them.

Simply put, He is not Bob Huntley material.

Realizing who I am and what the Sport means to me--by definition to anyone and everybody, Ron told me that Rustic Canyon will never survive and that they will be changing the greens soon. (By error, Ron thought RC was just over 6 months old when he made this statement) Looking around at a completely filled golf course @ 4:00pm in the afternoon, I'm convinced that Ron didn't have a degree in economics nor golf architecture--but then again, neither do I! That's why we are  electricians.

But the funniest thing of all is that Ron--by definition--thinks he is a "CORE" golfer. He classifies himself as such. While I'm quick to compare my knowledge of the sport to his,(Of course I call myself a "COORE" Golfer" and for the most part condemn his opinions and his knowledge--as misguided as I think they are, he is allowed to have an opinion, but just how absurd are opinions allowed to get when they are as misinformed and un-researched as his?

Do any of you or have any of you golfed with similar people and how have you held back from completely not wanting to drop kick them into a pot bunker? ? ?

How have you held back?

Thoughts?

[Matt_Cohn]

Tommy,

You're both playing the same course; you're having fun, and he's not. If he's a smart and reasonable guy, it won't be long before he reconsiders his position.

That's leading by example, I suppose.

Obviously, some people won't come around.

[Tim Bert]

I have stopped worrying about the score of most of my playing partners, for similar reasons to what you mention.  I used to get frustrated when someone posted a score that was "better" than mine.  I've since decided that if I'm playing with someone I never expect to see again on a golf course, then I don't really care.

I'm the first to admit that I don't know the rules chapter and verse, but I make every attempt to play by the rules and when something is in question I consult others or at least check up on the rule after the round is done so I've learned something for future reference.  What frustrates me is people looking the other way when it comes to OB and lost ball rules.  

Situations can arise where there is an honest mistake make regarding a lost ball and in the interest of time it doesn't make sense to go back and re-hit if you aren't in a serious competition.  At a minimum, when this happens to me, I pretend that I've hit another shot from the original place and that re-hit with penalty has landed in the near proximity of where the ball was lost.

There's nothing better than a regular golf partner that you enjoy playing with and that plays by the same rules as you do.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy,

The sad, and more importantly, the dangerous part is that THEY outnumber US by a wide margin.

[Michael Dugger]

I totally get what you are saying but to each their own....

It has been through this website I learned for every lover of Sand Hills, there is a player out there who prefers to golf at Sandpines.

 

[David Stamm]

Tommy, I was playing last weekend with a couple (actually he was playing and she was riding in the cart) and there was a visiting couple I was playing with from Jersey. The subject came up of where to play in the city (we were at TP) and I suggested to the couple from Jersey Barona. Well, the local couple went on and on that Barona was not very good because it looked linksy and ugly. I asked what that had to do with the course itself. No coherent responses. I really wanted to press, but I bit my tongue.


I realize that this isn't quite along the same lines as what you are talking about, but these people were what I would consider "core" golfers. I knew that no matter what my argument, that I would not be able to get through to these people. In their minds, Aviara was much better because it was prettier and "had lots of flowers and waterfalls."  

How the hell do you reason with this sort of mentality?

You can't. I think there are some that after being exposed to the finer features in design and there eyes being opened to what is possible, that they would and will come around. Hell, look at me. But by and large, people I believe don't like to think. They like to be visually wowed. They want the sizzle   but don't know how to eat the steak. But that's okay. To each their own.


I just thought I'd respond to the reaction Ron had to RC itself. I haven't ru across too many golfers that try to pull what he did in regards to scores. From time to time I do, but not often. Certainly not amongst regulars that I play with.

[Michael Dugger]

I believe golf offers different things to different people.  

I like a journey, a trek through thrilling hazards.  

I guess I prefer what they called "sporty" courses back in the day....

[C. Squier]

Tommy, obviously golf is your(one of) major passions.  What I have learned is that when I am very passionate about something, it usually doesn't translate to others.  My other major golf passion is collecting Scotty Cameron putters.  Often I'll game a putter that is worth more than some of the cars in the parking lot.  Trying to explain my passion for collecting to a non-collector can be a frustrating and often fruitless pursuit.  You can only hear, "why buy that when it does the same as a $200 putter.....you're an idiot" so many times.  So I never bring it up anymore and if someone even notices my putter, I'll try to brush it off as quickly as possible.  I can imagine you felt the same bit of sadness when your friend ripped your course.  

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you should enjoy your passion to the fullest and when sincerely asked by another golfer, share it with them eagerly.  But don't waste your time with someone who just won't "get" it.  Because it can quickly spoil YOUR fun, which isn't supposed to happen.  

As for his score keeping ability....unless he doesn't pay up on the $5 nassau, let him go to bed happy.  He already knows he's a cheat.  

CPS

[James Bennett]

Tommy

good to hear the fairways are playing FIRM at Rustic.

Any experience with COORS golfers?  Perhaps Coors Lite golfers.

James B

PS  Australian and British handicaps are the result of score cards signed by both player and marker, and then entered into the computer by a third party (probably the golf shop).  Our handicaps seem to be higher on average than the equivalent non-GCA US golfer, from my limited experience.

[Jerry Kluger]

Tommy:

Please don't try and tell me that you were surprised.  

[James Bennett]

Jerry

Tommy is an electrician - he would have been 'shocked', not 'surprised'.

James B

[Joe Hancock]

Jerry

Tommy is an electrician - he would have been 'shocked', not 'surprised'.

James B

Sounds more like he may have been...revolted......

 

[jeffwarne]

Tommy,
First of all it's guys like that that pay my mortgage-the ego handicaps.

secondly, they keep the asshole traps full-think the K Club, and the great places less crowded.
Please stop trying to convince people like that the merits of architecture

I've found that some of my favorite (previously undiscovered) places on earth are often mentioned on GCA and I do worry that the GCA effect goes mainstream.
I met a guy who told me North Berwick was his favorite course today, and I met him in the most unlikely place with a most unlikely host.
I guess I'm selfish, but I'd like to keep the hidden gems hidden.

That said I have discovered many places via GCA so I guess I am being selfish by not always returning the favor.

[Kalen Braley]

Tommy,

I have played with guys who are similar to this, but with a twist.  No matter which muni or daily fee it is, you always meet the hardcore guy who thinks his home course is the best and everywhere else is dog meat. And I've seen more than my fair share of 1-2s on the doak scale, where they vehemently defend it.

Its frustrating because you can't even have a logical conversation with them.  I mean for petes sake if I want to have an illogical conversation, I'll just go home and get into it with the wife....I don't want to suffer thru that on the golf course.  

It does baffle me though how one cannot have an open mind on the golf course.

[Joel_Stewart]

The sad, and more importantly, the dangerous part is that THEY outnumber US by a wide margin.

True words Pat.  They outnumber us on certain panels that rate courses as well as at my home course by a large margin.

Tommy:
I've wonder how many people play RC because of the cost or easy access?  How many in percentage terms play it because of the design?

[Andy Troeger]

The score fudging portion of Tommy's post does not bother me so much as the fellow then turning the score in for handicap purposes. If someone wants to pay their green free, as long as they are respectful and keep play moving I could care less what they shoot or how they do it. Even with the handicap issue figured in, this fellow appears to be hurting himself more than anything. (EDIT: I did not notice the comment about berating the course...so this fellow may not have even been respectful, but my general comment above would still apply).

In terms of GCA interest...lets not forget that without the majority of these fellows playing golf and the courses we love, a large amount of modern courses would never have been built, and there would be more NLE's too. They have their own reasons to be sure, but without their opinions and tastes we'd have far less to enjoy ourselves. They probably think we're a bit silly for spending time talking about golf courses on an internet forum anyway  

[Richard Choi]

I am actually happy there are so many "handifudgers" around. Whenever I play in a tournament, vast majority of the players shoot WAAAY over their said handicap. Leaving me to battle with other honest handicappers (and sandbaggers).

The said behavior has provided me with a fair share of wins and I wouldn't want to have it any other way.

[henrye]

Do any of you or have any of you golfed with similar people and how have you held back from completely not wanting to drop kick them into a pot bunker? ? ?

How have you held back?

Thoughts?

Tommy, I think it depends on how close you are to this individual and how frank you think you can be.

2 to 3 times a year I play golf with a friend (actually his wife is a close friend of my wife) who is the chairman of a large well known US Bank which sponsors a lot of PGA golf.  He's a very friendly guy who is always cautious about his words - unless it comes to discussing golf courses.  He raves about a number of well known courses which I would consider more eye candy than good.  My general response to his raves are "yes it's a beautiful place" or "I've really only played it once."  It's a cop out, but I figure, why bother.

We generally enjoy our day and I figure why spoil it with a disagreement over something that 95% of golfers would agree with him on anyway.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

A lot of great points here, and remembering back, Tim Weiman, and old poster that never can seem to post here ANYMORE more or less presented this same question to me, I'm asking, a long, long time ago.

Some of the harsh critiques were, and I'll repeat this as he constantly repeated to me, using the word, Unfair.......

How many times have we've heard that word from the all knowing/so knowledgeable? Never once did I hear the word strategic, even though Ron was pulling his clubs out of a Titleist staff bag (from a cart*) (Honestly, I too played from a cart yesterday, only because of the temperature. Otherwise I would have walked)

Ron can hit the ball a gasping, mind blowing 190 yards on average. He thinks it's 230....

Ron can't putt to save his life, and the greens, the UNFAIR greens at Rustic Canyon aren't conducive to great scores.

Ron initially told me that he had driven by Rustic Canyon once and looked at it. He thought it was flat. When I told him RC was anything but flat (given the movement in the fairways that isn't hilly, but more naturally preserved and enhanced, suddenly all of the undulations weren't fair.

Ron told me two weeks ago he was a historian for golf, that he loved the history of golf, yet he doesn't even know who Old Tom Morris was....

When asked about the attraction to golf--the CHALLENGE, and how it influenced him, Ron's only answer was, This isn't about that.....

Ron announced to me from the tee on Rustic's beautiful 16th, Now here is my idea of a great golf hole--IT'S ALL IN FRONT OF YOU! (the magic words!)

So as you can see, my post isn't so much about Ron and his honesty as it is about the public's perception of honesty. There are just so many gray areas/so many people just like Ron.

Ron is THEM!

How do we educate them?

Are they open to learning even though they think they know it all already?

I know the knowledge I've gained from this website to be the highest school of learning for me to date. I've had life lessons, irrigation lessons, heavy equipment lessons and even playing lessons--all in an effort to learn more about the Sport.

As far as Ron, well he's a friend from work, and honestly a great guy. But honestly he is the problem for me FOR Golf, and I think I'm in good company too.  You see, in a letter Phil Young once gave me that was addressed from A.W. Tillinghast to Donald Ross, Tillie sounded like a beaten man. Tired and worn from his years, he told Donald how he yearned for the old days and more or less explained how the new generation didn't understand the Sport. I've heard similar stories of the same from Behr and MacDonald--how they were both tired of how people--much like today's golfing public--didn't understand the zest of the Game--the challenge.

I presented this same thing yesterday to Ron.

Why do you, a person of enormous opinions hate to be challenged? Why would you shy from this?

He just could never answer.

So my question is: Why do golfers today fear being challenged?

[Doug Siebert]

Just because the large majority of golfers don't "get it", shouldn't really matter to us.  Is it going to stop great courses from getting built?  No, though it likely will increase the percentage of crap courses that are built for the 'retail golfer'.

Its just like building architecture.  I was at a birthday party today and the topic of the U of Iowa's new West art building designed by Steven Holl that won some big national architectural award came up, and most of the people didn't like it.  Likewise, most of the state of Iowa doesn't like the U of I's Advanced Technology Center (or whatever they are calling it these days) which was a Frank Gehry design from right before he become one of the world's top architects.  Admittedly it isn't the best looking building on the street side, but viewing it from across the river it is simply amazing!

The fact is that the vast majority of ordinary guys will never like, appreciate or understand fine architecture, either in golf or in buildings.  But that doesn't really matter, and that doesn't indicate that there is some need to educate the public.  Great buildings will still get built, and if people hate the Guggenheim or Sand Hills, why should we care?

[Matt_Sullivan]

Tommy

Railing against the Rons of the world will only lead to immense frustration. You are the film critic asking why Hollywood only makes sequels and not Citizen Kanes; the cultural commentator bemoaning Big Brother and the Bachelor. I have never played the course but it sounds like Rustic Canyon is, in movie terms, a crossover hit -- an art house course being played by the masses. For that we should probaby be grateful.

Anyway, to answer your question, golfers don't fear being challenged; most feel the game is more than challenging enough. But I think some of what you are seeing stems from the desire in America to count every stroke and submit every card, rather than simply playing a match against your partner and the course.

Do you think Ron would have enjoyed his day more if you and he had played matchplay and not kept score?

[Rich Goodale]

That's a very good post, Tommy. Thanks.

However, you are preaching to the choir whereas the congregation (e.g. Ron) is dancing to a very different (but equally important, drummer).

If Bandon had restricted its clientele (retail golfers) to people who "got" GCA, Mike Keiser would have been back flogging Mother's Day cards 5 years ago.

Rich

[John Kavanaugh]

 he is allowed to have an opinion, but just how absurd are opinions allowed to get when they are as misinformed and un-researched as his?

You can not and should not research opinions if you want them to be your own.

[Tom_Doak]

Tommy:

The answer to your question is exactly why an architect can't worry about public perception too much.  There are a lot of people out there who just won't understand anything different.  But, it really doesn't matter much, as long as your course finds a big enough customer base to succeed.

Maybe Ron will learn over time to appreciate something different, and maybe he won't.  Don't lose sleep over it.  At least he is keeping some part of "the golf industry" afloat!  We'll miss him when he's gone.

[Jerry Kluger]

Tom: I was out at Ballyneal and since I returned I have yet to meet a golfer, I mean any golfer, from duffer to pro, who had any idea that there was great golf in Colorado that was not in the Rockies.  Try mentioning golf and Nebraska and they laugh at you - the golfing world is basically uninformed and it is my opinion that they will never learn otherwise.  

Tommy: The bigger problem I see is the extremes that we all run into with respect to scores.  Just as we have those players who have egos that allow them to dramatically exaggerate the quality of the game, so too are there players who diminish the quality of their games until they play in a handicapped event.  The guys who come up with the net 130 for two rounds of stroke play are just as common as those who NC because they have no chance of playing to their supposed handicaps. In one case you laugh at them but in the other you get pissed off when you feel that you've played well and aren't even close to placing in the money.

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