[Adam Clayman]

Your "pointing out of my ridiculous asserations" are nowhere to be found.  

Nowhere to be found because they were in such bad taste the moderator had to delete them.

[RJ_Daley]

Maybe not my fight, but I gotta go with Adam here.  It is as if you are playing a bait and switch and fishing for allies in some mission you have against your club committee, or other officials/professionals at the club.  While I may be reading more into this than is there... it seems like you believe club golf and their courses and competitions are made for an elete few.  

First rule of GCA is that it is to be enjoyable for the mid to higher handicapper while challenging to the scratchman.  Your posts reek of arrogance on this matter.  I also believe Pat Mucci is correct that #3 is a championship course for top competitions.  If 7000 yards - back from the ~7400 tips is only 6 drivers for you, then go compete for real and put your money where your mouth is.  Disparaging the membership and committee because they won't play your game is grounds for them and you to look for a new club or member, IMHO.

[JR Potts]

I would like to see where I made disparaging remarks.

And please, show me where I baited and switched anything.

I believe I wrote this....

What is the proper way to set up a course for a Club Championship?  Do you set it up at the tips, the member tees or shorter than that?

At my Club, our Golf Committee is a bunch of 50-60 year olds that cannot compete with the length of the younger generation. [TRUE STATEMENT AND NOT DISPARAGING AT ALL.  IN FACT, THESE PEOPLE, MY FRIENDS, WOULD READILY ADMIT THIS]. As a result, they set up the 7600 hundred yard course course around 6700 hundred yard to give them a chance.  

I call it bull shit...I'm interested to hear what others think.

And I finished with this.

And Joe, I was never looking for agreement or someone else to say, "that sucks."  I merely posted this to gauge the postion of others and to either validate or invalidate my concern.  At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter as I qualified and now get to play match play on #3...which suits my game regardless of the distance of the set-up.  However, if you reread my post, my concern is with intentionally setting up a course, shorter than what is traditionally played, in order to "level the playing field" for Club Championships or other Championship events.

Where's the bait and switch?  In fact, I'm quite taken aback by the way that my posts have been interpreted.

[Glenn Spencer]

Maybe not my fight, but I gotta go with Adam here.  It is as if you are playing a bait and switch and fishing for allies in some mission you have against your club committee, or other officials/professionals at the club.  While I may be reading more into this than is there... it seems like you believe club golf and their courses and competitions are made for an elete few.  

First rule of GCA is that it is to be enjoyable for the mid to higher handicapper while challenging to the scratchman.  Your posts reek of arrogance on this matter.  I also believe Pat Mucci is correct that #3 is a championship course for top competitions.  If 7000 yards - back from the ~7400 tips is only 6 drivers for you, then go compete for real and put your money where your mouth is.  Disparaging the membership and committee because they won't play your game is grounds for them and you to look for a new club or member, IMHO.

RJ,

Your post reeks of incompetence in your golf game. It is the championship of the club. The club is Medinah. The golf course is 7,600 yards. Why is Ryan supposed to adapt his game to compete at the club he joined?? By all means, lets move the tees up so that everybody can say that they played in the club championship and made the cut. 6700 yards??? Thank god real professionals run tournaments. Why don't they do this at the Western Amateur? US Amateur?? US Mid-Am?? It is because the guys at the USGA and WGA don't have ulterior motives. The ones that Ryan is dealing with do. Your comment about Ryan turning pro is a poor answer. The guy just wants the field to be  challenged, he never said the Tour was where he should be.

[Glenn Spencer]

I would like to see where I made disparaging remarks.

And please, show me where I baited and switched anything.

I believe I wrote this....

What is the proper way to set up a course for a Club Championship?  Do you set it up at the tips, the member tees or shorter than that?

At my Club, our Golf Committee is a bunch of 50-60 year olds that cannot compete with the length of the younger generation. [TRUE STATEMENT AND NOT DISPARAGING AT ALL.  IN FACT, THESE PEOPLE, MY FRIENDS, WOULD READILY ADMIT THIS]. As a result, they set up the 7600 hundred yard course course around 6700 hundred yard to give them a chance.  

I call it bull shit...I'm interested to hear what others think.

And I finished with this.

And Joe, I was never looking for agreement or someone else to say, "that sucks."  I merely posted this to gauge the postion of others and to either validate or invalidate my concern.  At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter as I qualified and now get to play match play on #3...which suits my game regardless of the distance of the set-up.  However, if you reread my post, my concern is with intentionally setting up a course, shorter than what is traditionally played, in order to "level the playing field" for Club Championships or other Championship events.

Where's the bait and switch?  In fact, I'm quite taken aback by the way that my posts have been interpreted.

I am too. Jealousy is an ugly thing. I think you should have to play with one hand tied behind your back Ryan. I think we had a similar discussion last year. Club championships are a joke and this story is why.

[Adam Clayman]

Let's get one thing clear here. It turns out this is not the CC, it is the qualifying round for the CC. This was a huge ommission on the part of a person who clearly can golf his ball but is far from a golfer. You too Glenn with your comment to Dick's abilities.

[RJ_Daley]

He said there are 25 with sub 3 handi.  But, in reality only 12 can compete at the far back blocks.  At 7200+ Medinah #3, I am willing to bet only plus handicaps really can compete, unless you figure the winning score can or should be ~80 average per round +.  If so, great.  We saw the best players in the world play there at two recent PGAs and many of them shot 80s from the tips!!!!

But, what big deal is it if you beat maybe 6 real contenders at the club.  If that is what blows your skirt up, and what makes you feel great, by all means do it and good for you.  

I just don't think anyone belongs to a great club simply to beat a half dozen guys.  I thought one joined for the commeraderie of golf with friends and the enjoyment of club competition.   I think it is perfectly fair to suggest if a guy can't enjoy the club aspects, needing the thrill of the hardest competition and set-up conditions, where all but a handful are excluded by simple inability to compete at that high of a level, then you should get your jollies in REAL COMPETITION TOURNAMENTS, not some club clambake. no matter how prestigious of a club.

When Ryan is 50 something, and maybe even the club champ is of even more covetted desire, do you think he might think it a nice thing to level the field so even his aging bod might compete?  Funny how life and age changes perspectives.

Glenn, I have no quams about exposing the incompetence of "my game" to anyone, particularly in home club championships, in flight.  I do that every men's club day and every year in our little club events.  (I once won our club match play summer series... wow)  I am a course 14 and index 12, and 59 years old and am completely in touch with my incompetence and limitations.  Oh sure, I'd love to have my obit say I once won the Medinah club championship on 3# against 10 other guys.  But, it wouldn't define my life...

[JR Potts]

That is a distinction without a difference but let me try to get this straight.  I have a real difficult time trying to decode Clayman logic.

A qualifier where the field is whittled down to a number sufficient for the completion of the ultimate event isn't part of the event and thus should be held to a different standard?  So Monday qualifiers should be played to a much shorter distance and a much easier set-up as the event on Thursday-Sunday?  US Open qualifiers should be played to the easiest level possible so as to give the most players a chance at making it through?  Your attempt to find a mistruth in anything I wrote is both laughable and desperate.

And as for the personal insult, you don't know the first thing about me.  If you're keeping track, and I assure you that I am, you are always the first one to get personal...a trait that I don't attribute to "golfers"...certainly not "gentlemen."    

[Glenn Spencer]

Let's get one thing clear here. It turns out this is not the CC, it is the qualifying round for the CC. This was a huge ommission on the part of a person who clearly can golf his ball but is far from a golfer. You too Glenn with your comment to Dick's abilities.

I never said one thing about Dick's golf game.

[JR Potts]

He said there are 25 with sub 3 handi.  But, in reality only 12 can compete at the far back blocks. PLEASE POINT OUT WHERE I SAID THAT.  AGAIN, ANOTHER ERRONEOUS ASSUMPTION.  At 7200+ Medinah #3, I am willing to bet only plus handicaps really can compete, unless you figure the winning score can or should be ~80 average per round +. LAST YEARS WINNING SCORE, 80-79-79. ANOTHER ERRONEOUS ASSUMPTION.  If so, great.  We saw the best players in the world play there at two recent PGAs and many of them shot 80s from the tips!!!! PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE I SUGGESTED THAT IT SHOULD BE PLAYED FROM THE TIPS.  ANOTHER ERRONEOUS ASSUMPTION.  

But, what big deal is it if you beat maybe 6 real contenders at the club. IT'S CALLED COMPETITION AND PRIDE.  SOME OF US HAVE JOBS AND ENJOY COMPETITION WHEREEVER WE CAN GET IT.  If that is what blows your skirt up, and what makes you feel great, by all means do it and good for you.  

I just don't think anyone belongs to a great club simply to beat a half dozen guys. WHERE WAS THIS EVER SAID OR SUGGESTED.   I thought one joined for the commeraderie of golf with friends and the enjoyment of club competition.   I think it is perfectly fair to suggest if a guy can't enjoy the club aspects, needing the thrill of the hardest competition and set-up conditions, where all but a handful are excluded by simple inability to compete at that high of a level, then you should get your jollies in REAL COMPETITION TOURNAMENTS, not some club clambake. no matter how prestigious of a club.

When Ryan is 50 something, and maybe even the club champ is of even more covetted desire, do you think he might think it a nice thing to level the field so even his aging bod might compete?  Funny how life and age changes perspectives.

Glenn, I have no quams about exposing the incompetence of "my game" to anyone, particularly in home club championships, in flight.  I do that every men's club day and every year in our little club events.  (I once won our club match play summer series... wow)  I am a course 14 and index 12, and 59 years old and am completely in touch with my incompetence and limitations.  Oh sure, I'd love to have my obit say I once won the Medinah club championship on 3# against 10 other guys.  WOW, WHY DO YOU PLAY GOLF IF YOUR ACCOMPLSIHMENTS IN THE GAME MEAN SO LITTLE?  DO YOU HAVE ANY SPIRT OF COMPETITION?  IF NOT, GOOD FOR YOU.  BUT MANY OF US ATHLETES LOVE THE GAME FOR THE FELLOWSHIP AND COMPETITION.   But, it wouldn't define my life... WHOEVER SAID IT DID.  ANOTHER ERRONEOUS ASSUMPTION.  

[Glenn Spencer]

He said there are 25 with sub 3 handi.  But, in reality only 12 can compete at the far back blocks.  At 7200+ Medinah #3, I am willing to bet only plus handicaps really can compete, unless you figure the winning score can or should be ~80 average per round +.  If so, great.  We saw the best players in the world play there at two recent PGAs and many of them shot 80s from the tips!!!!

But, what big deal is it if you beat maybe 6 real contenders at the club.  If that is what blows your skirt up, and what makes you feel great, by all means do it and good for you.  

I just don't think anyone belongs to a great club simply to beat a half dozen guys.  I thought one joined for the commeraderie of golf with friends and the enjoyment of club competition.   I think it is perfectly fair to suggest if a guy can't enjoy the club aspects, needing the thrill of the hardest competition and set-up conditions, where all but a handful are excluded by simple inability to compete at that high of a level, then you should get your jollies in REAL COMPETITION TOURNAMENTS, not some club clambake. no matter how prestigious of a club.

When Ryan is 50 something, and maybe even the club champ is of even more covetted desire, do you think he might think it a nice thing to level the field so even his aging bod might compete?  Funny how life and age changes perspectives.

Glenn, I have no quams about exposing the incompetence of "my game" to anyone, particularly in home club championships, in flight.  I do that every men's club day and every year in our little club events.  (I once won our club match play summer series... wow)  I am a course 14 and index 12, and 59 years old and am completely in touch with my incompetence and limitations.  Oh sure, I'd love to have my obit say I once won the Medinah club championship on 3# against 10 other guys.  But, it wouldn't define my life...

Here lies my point, Dick. If Ryan is 50, he is supposed to know and accept that he is not good enough to beat the young guys and be happy competing. That is what a real "golfer" would do. Adam thinks a real golfer should be able to play the tees that he wants in tournaments and think that is he is a great golfer till the day he dies. Nice to see that you see the difference.

[RJ_Daley]

Honestly Glenn, I have never known Adam to be so arrogant as to think that a "real golfer" is only defined by back tee prowess.  In my years of knowing Adam and playing with him at neat places, I'd say Adam believes a "real golfer" has the heart and passion for the game, whether he is a scratch or 20 handi.  I think both Adam and I might agree that a real golfer is way different than a competition golfer.  A real golfer, like Adam and hopefully me, likes competition, would take pride in winning whatever is fair-like competitor abilities, and relishes the chance for the commeraderie and experiencing new and exciting golf courses when possible.  

Could golf exist if only the "competition' mentality and only calling those that can and do compete at highest levels, the only " real golfers"?

Obviously, "real golfer" and "competition golfer" mean different things to different people, or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Now, if Ryan sought membership and achieved club champ at say Isleworth or Lake Nona, that would be something to covet, and bitch and scream if they set it up easy.  

As for Ryan's quotes and re-quotes of quotes, and splitting fine hairs such as ~ (means about) 80 from 80-79-79 as erroneous, or that bit about only about 12 can compete, well... I think it speaks for itself.  

[Glenn Spencer]

What ever happened to all the trite complaints on here about "macho jerks who try to play tees that are too far back for them....everybody should play the tees that are appropriate for them...."??

Here we have a club championship at a monster of a course and now all the same people who always whip out the "everyone should play tees appropriate for them" truism are retreating from it and now claiming that a bunch of scratch players (who got scratch at Medinah) should play a bunch of up tees...

...I fail to see the logical consistency.

A club championship at Medinah should be played from the tips for the championship flight on Course No. 1.

It should be played from the backs of the silver tees and/or the fronts of the way-backs (but not from the tees specially created for the PGA) on #3 for the championship flight.  I figure that's about 7250 or so.

The next levels down should play tees appropriate for them. TOO.

While we are at it, can we define playing tees that are too far back for you?? If you go to Oakmont from the back and shoot 85, are those the right tees? Macho jerks that play the back tees are nothing compared to the guy that thinks " the golf course is the golf course, what difference does it make that I played the forward tees." A friend once told this guy we were having drinks with, that I could play a little golf. The guy then asks me "Oh, yeah, ever play Wolf Run?" I said, yeah, I have played it. he then asks, "what did you shoot the first time you played it?" I say, 77. He says, "well, you must not be that good, because I shot 75 there." We later find out that he played the forward tees.

If you play the up tees, then you are not playing the actual golf course. This is why they have different course records for each. If you shoot 75 from the forward tees at Wolf Run, you have done exactly that. If you shoot 75 from the back, then you have shot 75 at Wolf Run. Ryan's championship should read, Up or forward or whatever Medinah Club Championship.

It is the same thing as the city mens baseball championship being pitched at 50'5" because the old guys wanted it that way.

[Glenn Spencer]

Honestly Glenn, I have never known Adam to be so arrogant as to think that a "real golfer" is only defined by back tee prowess.  In my years of knowing Adam and playing with him at neat places, I'd say Adam believes a "real golfer" has the heart and passion for the game, whether he is a scratch or 20 handi.  I think both Adam and I might agree that a real golfer is way different than a competition golfer.  A real golfer, like Adam and hopefully me, likes competition, would take pride in winning whatever is fair-like competitor abilities, and relishes the chance for the commeraderie and experiencing new and exciting golf courses when possible.  

Could golf exist if only the "competition' mentality and only calling those that can and do compete at highest levels, the only " real golfers"?

Obviously, "real golfer" and "competition golfer" mean different things to different people, or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Now, if Ryan sought membership and achieved club champ at say Isleworth or Lake Nona, that would be something to covet, and bitch and scream if they set it up easy.  

As for Ryan's quotes and re-quotes of quotes, and splitting fine hairs such as ~ (means about) 80 from 80-79-79 as erroneous, or that bit about only about 12 can compete, well... I think it speaks for itself.  

Good post, Dick, but I don't think that Adam is being arrogant at all about the back tee stuff, he is saying that Ryan is not the real golfer because of whatever reason. I am turning it back on older gentleman and saying that everything that golf teaches us tells you that you should be able to accept your limitations and not set up courses to your advantage by making them shorter because you are older. Etiquette applies on the course, as well as in the clubhouse. Self-serving set-ups do not  a golfer make. A golfer plays the game as you say and enjoys it. If he is good enough to compete then he is, but a golfer doesn't try to set the course up to benefit himself or his friends.

[RJ_Daley]

Dave, you are seeming to back into some weird logic as well!  

I'd put myself into that category of those folks that always harp that folks should play on the correct tees to their ability level. The club champion at Medinah, should play (IMHO) the champion course at the most appropriate level of rational distance as the "field averages", not the PGA tees, unless they are PGA top players, which they are not.  These are "club members"!  

In "real" competitions, they don't set the blocks back to the max every day.  Even the PGA, USGA set the blocks up a few days of the 4 day affairs.  And speaking about 'set-ups' not every day are the toughest 'sunday pins'.  Would anybody watch, or many pros even enter tournaments where they play the tips of some of these venues that do stretch now to 7600 and all the pins were the toughest, if that was the challenge everyday?  It would be a competition between Eldrick and 10 other guys, and the rest could stay home.  Whether it is the PGA or the club member championship, I think you have to realistically "average out" the yardage and challenge of the defined field.  So, appropriate tees means appropriate to the abilities of the field.  Or you have a competition between a couple of guys, excluding all those members that pay good money to belong to a good club and expect good entertainment with fair competition.  

Besides, if a fellow is so damn good at 7400 yards, why is he bitching at 6800 or whatever.  Doesn't that increase his prowess to overpower the course and increase his chances of winning?  Or, does it let in some guys that can "compete" and BEAT HIM on an easier golf course!  What kind of a heart of a golfer worries about being beaten on 6800 and feels confident of his chances at 7400?  sounds like needing to fish in a barrel to me....

[Glenn Spencer]

Dave, you are seeming to back into some weird logic as well!  

I'd put myself into that category of those folks that always harp that folks should play on the correct tees to their ability level. The club champion at Medinah, should play (IMHO) the champion course at the most appropriate level of rational distance as the "field averages", not the PGA tees, unless they are PGA top players, which they are not.  These are "club members"!  

In "real" competitions, they don't set the blocks back to the max every day.  Even the PGA, USGA set the blocks up a few days of the 4 day affairs.  And speaking about 'set-ups' not every day are the toughest 'sunday pins'.  Would anybody watch, or many pros even enter tournaments where they play the tips of some of these venues that do stretch now to 7600 and all the pins were the toughest, if that was the challenge everyday?  It would be a competition between Eldrick and 10 other guys, and the rest could stay home.  Whether it is the PGA or the club member championship, I think you have to realistically "average out" the yardage and challenge of the defined field.  So, appropriate tees means appropriate to the abilities of the field.  Or you have a competition between a couple of guys, excluding all those members that pay good money to belong to a good club and expect good entertainment with fair competition.  

Besides, if a fellow is so damn good at 7400 yards, why is he bitching at 6800 or whatever.  Doesn't that increase his prowess to overpower the course and increase his chances of winning?  Or, does it let in some guys that can "compete" and BEAT HIM on an easier golf course!  What kind of a heart of a golfer worries about being beaten on 6800 and feels confident of his chances at 7400?  sounds like needing to fish in a barrel to me....

Can't agree here. I post a thread a week ago about Emma Jandel beating me in a tournament on a short golf course. She did quite well at The US Women's Amateur making Sweet 16 and losing to the eventual winner on the 18th hole. She is a fabulous player, but I am not willing to concede that she is a better golfer than me yet, because she beat me on a 6300 yard course. Now, don't get me wrong, she may very well be a better player, but my playing a course that I have to adapt to makes a difference. Why should Ryan be adapting at his home course club championship?

Ryan has honed his game to compete at some of the higher levels in amateur golf. He played the tournaments and saw what his game needed to compete at those levels. He did what he needed to do to get better as a golfer. Why would you want to let the 50-year that is not as good of an athlete compete with him equally??

[JR Potts]

RJ:

I don't really have a problem with the shorter distance as that does assist me in some ways as well.  However, what you seem to discount and what you've ignored is my complaint when a course is set up to benefit a certain person or group....be it long hitters, short hitters, old guys or young guys.  As I've said repeatedly (despite some igorning these words for their own personal benefit) I just think that the course should be set up as it is on any given day.  And I made my original post to see what others thought.  Some decided to make it personal or specific to a Club, which I never intended.  

You and Adam seem to think that any set-up that is shorter is better as it then includes the maximum amount of players.  I can appreciate that position but the issue is different than that.  Why should a Championship set-up be contingent on who or what level of player is on the Golf Committee?  If I take over the Committee am I then allowed to set it up all the way back as then it further cuts the field?  Are shorter hitters allowed to further shorted the course to suit their own needs?

That was the inquiry from the get go...it was never about me and my pathetic life or laughable insignificant quest to win a club title.

EDIT and ADDENDUM [I do think that a lot of people on this board fail to realize that length is a separate skill that should be rewarded...just like being a good putter....having great hands....being able to work the ball left to right or right to left or being able to hit the ball high or low.  They are all important skills...just become one hits it long, doesn't mean he's the antichrist or unable to appreciate the game.  Unfortunately, this opinion seems to infect this board and the opinions held by many].

[Glenn Spencer]

Dave, you are seeming to back into some weird logic as well!  

I'd put myself into that category of those folks that always harp that folks should play on the correct tees to their ability level. The club champion at Medinah, should play (IMHO) the champion course at the most appropriate level of rational distance as the "field averages", not the PGA tees, unless they are PGA top players, which they are not.  These are "club members"!  

In "real" competitions, they don't set the blocks back to the max every day.  Even the PGA, USGA set the blocks up a few days of the 4 day affairs.  And speaking about 'set-ups' not every day are the toughest 'sunday pins'.  Would anybody watch, or many pros even enter tournaments where they play the tips of some of these venues that do stretch now to 7600 and all the pins were the toughest, if that was the challenge everyday?  It would be a competition between Eldrick and 10 other guys, and the rest could stay home.  Whether it is the PGA or the club member championship, I think you have to realistically "average out" the yardage and challenge of the defined field.  So, appropriate tees means appropriate to the abilities of the field.  Or you have a competition between a couple of guys, excluding all those members that pay good money to belong to a good club and expect good entertainment with fair competition.  

Besides, if a fellow is so damn good at 7400 yards, why is he bitching at 6800 or whatever.  Doesn't that increase his prowess to overpower the course and increase his chances of winning?  Or, does it let in some guys that can "compete" and BEAT HIM on an easier golf course!  What kind of a heart of a golfer worries about being beaten on 6800 and feels confident of his chances at 7400?  sounds like needing to fish in a barrel to me....

Setting up a few holes shorter to tempt or whatever is not my style, but it is a lot different than playing all of the markers up, which is the case in the Medinah Championship.

[C. Squier]

EDIT and ADDENDUM [I do think that a lot of people on this board fail to realize that length is a separate skill that should be rewarded...just like being a good putter....having great hands....being able to work the ball left to right or right to left or being able to hit the ball high or low.  They are all important skills...just become one hits it long, doesn't mean he's the antichrist or unable to appreciate the game.  Unfortunately, this opinion seems to infect this board and the opinions held by many].

Well stated.  I'd be interested to see the handicaps of all of the posters on this thread just to gain a little perspective.  Whatever the number, doesn't make you a bad person or any less of a "golfer".  But it should limit your ability to commentate on the one day that is set aside to identify a club's best player.  

CPS

[RJ_Daley]

Dave, you are playing that old lawyer trick and making your case on the most absurd logical conclusion asking if they should play it from the ladies tees...  

What do you gentlemen consider a worthy club championship flight field number of participants to be reasonably proud to be the champion of?  Are only the top 12 that can play the yardage considered a worthy field?  If so, go to it.  

what about defining a champion field based on of course ~scratch handi-3 as computed on the tees back from regular membership based on that course rating and slope, and yardage sufficient that a reasonable percentage of the field (say 85%) can reach all of the par 4s with at least driver-3 wood, and may not be able to reach any of the par 5s, but nothing worse than a 7 iron for 3rd shots on the par 5s?  Anothwords, I'm guessing a yardage that has no par 4s over 460, a majority between 310-430, and par 5s from 500-600.  Par 3s can be anything up to say 240, so long as two of them are mid to short irons.  

I'd like to be the champion of a club course where the likes of Corey Pavin and Fred Funk have a chance to beat me because they are great and have all great parts of the game except maybe length.  If it is down to length as the most important determinant, then the long drive contest should be your thing, not club championship with only a handful that have a chance, IMO.

As I've admitted, my handi is 14 on our home course, and I would bet something like 20+ at Medinah #3 (not sure how that would work exactly)  

It isn't about me or anyone else of higher handicap, who writes here on this board to determine how to identify how YOUR club champion is actually determined.  But Ryan did ask the general question based on his set of criteria as he explained them.  So, we had a discussion of "opinions".

It is up to YOUR club, and they have apparently done so based on criteria they determined was fair.  If you can afford Medinah, I assume you can afford many other places.  There must be SOME other club that would set up what you believe is your ultimate club test.  If there is no other club, then you are really howling in the wilderness and against all conventional wisdom. Your membership fees should carry as much weight as the rest of the club.  If they are all buddies and they have the power (and presumably the majority of members votes or confidence to stay on committees to make such determinations) you really have no gripes coming since membership is voluntary, IMHO.  

Dave, Lawsonia should be such a cake walk to you at about 6800 tips... how would you ever take pride if you won the GCA.com Langford and Morreau tour of 2007 if we "made" you play it up with us hacks at 6400 that lets us all compete?  

[Sean Leary]

I believe that it should be played from where the majority of the best players play it most often.

At my course, that is exactly what we do, which is play from the blues not the blacks. I am one of the small group of people (literally there are less than 8 of us) that plays the blacks in the summer only.

Since I have been a member, the person who had been playing the best won every time, but it gave a lot more a chance to compete.

However that being said, I do believe that there should be 1 course record, and that has to be from the back tees.  We have 3 course records which is silly, especially since the low of the three came on the back tees.

[Rob_Waldron]

Ryan

At a club like Medinah with a large number of low handicap players it seems like the club championship should be played from the "Championship" markers. Not necessarily the "PGA Championship" Markers. I was disappointed to see the club championship played one step at a club I was at in Florida. However since 98% of the membership was over age 55 I guess it was appropriate. (Only me and my Pro Shop staff ever played the tips)

It seems like the best idea would be to establish a "Championship Committee" to run the event. The club championship should be used to identify the best player at a club as opposed to another social event on the Men's Golf Calendar.  

[Glenn Spencer]

Dave, you are playing that old lawyer trick and making your case on the most absurd logical conclusion asking if they should play it from the ladies tees...  

What do you gentlemen consider a worthy club championship flight field number of participants to be reasonably proud to be the champion of?  Are only the top 12 that can play the yardage considered a worthy field?  If so, go to it.  

what about defining a champion field based on of course ~scratch handi-3 as computed on the tees back from regular membership based on that course rating and slope, and yardage sufficient that a reasonable percentage of the field (say 85%) can reach all of the par 4s with at least driver-3 wood, and may not be able to reach any of the par 5s, but nothing worse than a 7 iron for 3rd shots on the par 5s?  Anothwords, I'm guessing a yardage that has no par 4s over 460, a majority between 310-430, and par 5s from 500-600.  Par 3s can be anything up to say 240, so long as two of them are mid to short irons.  

I'd like to be the champion of a club course where the likes of Corey Pavin and Fred Funk have a chance to beat me because they are great and have all great parts of the game except maybe length.  If it is down to length as the most important determinant, then the long drive contest should be your thing, not club championship with only a handful that have a chance, IMO.

As I've admitted, my handi is 14 on our home course, and I would bet something like 20+ at Medinah #3 (not sure how that would work exactly)  

It isn't about me or anyone else of higher handicap, who writes here on this board to determine how to identify how YOUR club champion is actually determined.  But Ryan did ask the general question based on his set of criteria as he explained them.  So, we had a discussion of "opinions".

It is up to YOUR club, and they have apparently done so based on criteria they determined was fair.  If you can afford Medinah, I assume you can afford many other places.  There must be SOME other club that would set up what you believe is your ultimate club test.  If there is no other club, then you are really howling in the wilderness and against all conventional wisdom. Your membership fees should carry as much weight as the rest of the club.  If they are all buddies and they have the power (and presumably the majority of members votes or confidence to stay on committees to make such determinations) you really have no gripes coming since membership is voluntary, IMHO.  

Dave, Lawsonia should be such a cake walk to you at about 6800 tips... how would you ever take pride if you won the GCA.com Langford and Morreau tour of 2007 if we "made" you play it up with us hacks at 6400 that lets us all compete?  

Dick,

I can't speak for all fo the guys that want to see it played back, but I don't think I am far off by saying that Ryan, nor anyone else thinks that 6800 is too short for a golf course or that Ryan or anyone else will tear it up at that yardage. We are saying that 6800 just takes one of Ryan's skills (long-hitting) and takes it away from him because the other guys can't do it. I am not a great bunker player, but I don't seek out bunkerless courses. It seems some on this board want everybody to play a 6700 yard golf course because it has options, I think closer to the truth is that they can't compete at 7400. Ryan can compete at 6700, but he will be doing it for the wrong reasons.

Ryan is a young guy, that joined a tough golf course, why is he supposed to find somewhere else to play. I would think the 50-year old has been that can't hack it should be the one that is looking elsewhere.

[Adam Clayman]

Wonderfully put Glenn. Get rid of those old hacks. Who needs or wants them around? Why I bet they don't even participate in the Calcuttas?
You could not have proven my points any better than that last post. This spirit the two you exude is as refreshing as 92 degrees with 70% humidity.

[Glenn Spencer]

Wonderfully put Glenn. Get rid of those old hacks. Who needs or wants them around? Why I bet they don't even participate in the Calcuttas?
You could not have proven my points any better than that last post. This spirit the two you exude is as refreshing as 92 degrees with 70% humidity.

Adam,

Dick was the one suggesting that people look elsewhere, not me. I never said get rid of them, but a man should learn when to be a gentleman and just compete instead of trying to look to other avenues to stay competitive. Why should the course be set up to accommadate the short players and eliminate his advantage. I hear most young guys are drawing the ball these days, maybe the old guys will put a lot of right pins out for the club championship. Is this fair??

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