[Mark Bourgeois]

Haven't seen a hole-by-hole of pics on this course, so here goes. Refer to Ran's writeup for the details and expert writeup, or maybe member or two can chime in...

PS If there's a hole you'd like to see more of, let me know, I took a ton of pics.

Opener, a downhill par 4:


2nd hole, tee shot: the first of several memorable up and overs


2nd green, as seen from ridge


Heretics who would change the meaning of the strategic school of golf design, take note: in the hole position to the left, shots hit long are absolutely dead.  The golfer most certainly has a shot -- but not a play.  He must carry or negotiate a small swale of short grass, to a green running sharply downhill and to a cavernous, and I mean hand-wedge cavernous, bunker.  Strategic school: that golfer is dead, he just doesn't know it yet.

3rd hole, a par 3


4th hole, uphill par 4 -- many holes, such as this one, need to cut back trees to reveal the green from the tee


Green


5th hole, another up and over -- the great thing about these tee shots they allow for audible gasps when a beautiful green comes into view, something that happens often on this course


5th green


6th hole, dogleg right par 4 and no. 1 or 2 handicap


The awesome, flowing 6th green closes out what is in my opinion an all-world opening. The man sure knew how to start a course, didn't he?


par 3 redan 7th -- is there a chainsaw in the house? I mean, good Lord!


The awesome 8th


8th green


9th, a par 3


And now for an uphill hole: the 10th.  As Ran notes, Ross gives us a number of up and overs, and just when we're about to tire, he benches a green into a hillside.


10th green


Par 4 11th: buzzzzzz....


11 green: note line of fairway set against line of green!


The brutal 12th


12 green


Downhill 13th


13 green -- notice the excellent use of ground in front of green:  a small swale across the front that blocks many shots from reaching the green.  Golfers already find it difficult to muster courage to hit all the way to this green; the swale is akin to a "pre-dug" grave the golfer's ball can settle in so that he more quickly may get down to the business of lying down in it. Then to the right a knob (the discolored patch of turf): right in the spot where many golfers would instinctively bail (flare shot / failure to finish swing)  -- think Ross did that on purpose?


Long-carry par 3 14th -- bramble in front of tee annoying!


Uphill 15th: the tee sits on a hill, actually, "presenting" the hole, and green to us.  (Note how hole appears uphill yet we can see the green.) I like the view but my understanding is Ross laid the original tee to the right, closer to 14 green, making the hole more a dogleg right.


15 green, looking back down fairway -- best angle to show green contours


15 green as seen from back and right -- good luck to the golfer who flares his approach (another example of the strategic school of design: not a bunker or pond in sight, but the golfer almost certainly will pay for his mistake of missing to the wrong spot / being out of position)


Now go back and compare 8 - 10 with 13 - 15. Awesome example of "small multiples": Ross sort of repeats himself! (Down hill hole to "hanging" green, followed by forced-carry par 3, followed by uphill hole to benched green.)

16th hole


16 green: if it's been said once it's been said a thousand times, do not get above the hole on a Ross green!


17th hole: another solid downhiller, but to my eye it looked kinda fuzzy in comparison to the others.  If they're going to let the pines define the broad playing corridors on the other holes, then this one could use it, in particular along that spacey line of pines on the right.


17 green


18th, a great finisher with as Ran notes a score-frustrating elephant buried in the LZ


18th LZ


18th green


The routing I thought was truly inspired; in particular, how he sited the tees and greens. The holes sit so beautifully on the land. Just look at those "hanging" or precipice greens on 7, 8, and 13! He must have gotten very excited when he walked the property
Mark

[Mike_Cirba]

Mark,

Thanks...those pics are tremendous.

One of the things I found at Southern Pines, particularly when it plays firm and fast, even more so than its illustrious neighbors, was the need to shape the tee shots into the sloping terrain just to keep it in the fairway.

Because...if you ain't in the fairway, you ain't going to hit your approach where you need to, and it's going to start multiplying pretty quick from that point.  

[Mark Bourgeois]

Mike,

Interesting point. Especially true on gull winged greens, like 2. You'd have to be way over to the right to get at that left hole.

One thing that stuck with me from rans writeup is how eger didn't do much better than on Pinehurst #2. This must be one reason why.

Mark

[Jerry Kluger]

I haven't had the chance to get there but that is very impressive - looks like great fun.

[Jeff Doerr]

Thanks Mark - Boy, 7 is a big ? with those trees!

It looks like a very tough play if you stray to far to either side on a lot of the holes. Is there a feeling of width as you play on some of the holes?

[Tony_Chapman]

Mark -- Thanks for these. I couldn't help but notice your pics of 15 were from straight on.

I met Ran for the first time on the 11th tee at Southern Pines as he joined me and my dad and brother for a game. We finished 14 and we walking up to the tee, but he told us we had to play from the "Ross" tee. It was just off the 14th green and was a small patch of rough, I think and the hole played as a long 4, dogleg right.

"Ross would never make you walk up that hill, if you didn't need to," Ran said.

Apparently the scorecard bunch wanted a "par-5" on the back side so they made that new tee. I believe the Ross routing was 36-34-70.

A wonderful place. I hope they don't improve it and start charging $75 to play it. It's just fine the way it is.

[david h. carroll]

can anyone offer any insight into the other course on the property and its provenance or any future efforts to restore it?

[Steve Lang]

 .. played SPCC (aka The Elks) since 1980, last time 2006.. probably 3 dozen times total.. those pics are great memory candy..

the 9 holes , a bouncing ball down the street from the pool used to be in fair muni shape.. then went rough muni shape.. then ultimately dead.. in the dozen or times playing it, i always thought it was sort of like a research or demonstration course, seeing how things might be done (like pushed up raised greens) before full scale.. just the feeling i always got vs the main 18 holes.. we sometimes would come off its 4th or 5th(?) green and jump back onto 13 of the main course, or play that downhill tiered fairway hole.. onto the valley plain holes.. and then climb back up to the clubhouse on 9, along sdie the practice range

would be intersted in actual date of "out back 9" versus main course..

[RJ_Daley]

Steve, I think there are the bones of at least 4 very good holes on the 'little 9',  the 9th among them, IMO.

I forgot which archtitect did major remodelling on many green sites.  Long time members told me that the greens were radically changed.  I wonder if KC's dad still lives on the 5th.  I visited his home and thought, this is perfect!  

SPGC reminds me very much of my own home course, Brown County.  I felt very much at home when I have played there 3 times in early and late spring.  I'd say SPGC is a slight notch above my home course.  

Have they placed a statute of Ran near the putting green yet, or perhaps a portrait of him in smoking jacket in the downstairs club room?  

[Mark Bourgeois]

Jeff,

It's plenty wide, despite a need for tree clearing. As Mike notes, though, you need to be on the correct side of fairway / rough.

Tony, sadly I played alone, with no one to tell me such things.

Mark

[Tony_Chapman]

Steve, I think there are the bones of at least 4 very good holes on the 'little 9',  the 9th among them, IMO.

I forgot which archtitect did major remodelling on many green sites.  Long time members told me that the greens were radically changed.  I wonder if KC's dad still lives on the 5th.  I visited his home and thought, this is perfect!  

SPGC reminds me very much of my own home course, Brown County.  I felt very much at home when I have played there 3 times in early and late spring.  I'd say SPGC is a slight notch above my home course.  

Have they placed a statute of Ran near the putting green yet, or perhaps a portrait of him in smoking jacket in the downstairs club room?  

RJ -- The architect in question was John LaFoy. I think Ran mentions that he did some wonderful things and some "not-so" wonderful things to SPCC. I remember him not being enamored with "mounds" around the 12th and 13th greens, but he loved the 2nd hole green re-working. Mr. LaFoy designed our own Quarry Oaks in Nebraska. The GD raters think it is the 72nd best public course in the nation, at least 29 spots better then our friend in Gothenburg because -- sadly -- it is unranked. Oh well.....

[RJ_Daley]

Tony, I played QO and thought it had some really good holes, but a few clinkers.  Too long or severe of a walk too.  

I agree that the remodelled-something of a 3 leaf clover 2nd hole green at SPGC is a good one, but I don't know what the Ross green was like.  

[SPNC_Chris]

Steve, I think there are the bones of at least 4 very good holes on the 'little 9',  the 9th among them, IMO.

I've always been puzzled by the "little 9" description since it plays to the same yardage as the other two nines.

I'd say holes 1,4,5,and 9 on the Cardinal 9 are very good. Heck, I really like all of them, but it is the course I have played more than any other.

I know 9 is not the original hole as it was relocated from where the driving range is. I'm told only half the holes are the original Ross holes, but I don't know that for sure. It certainly seems like at least 1-4 must be. 6 and 7 are supposedly non-Ross or are almost completely different from the originals.

BTW, I just realized/remembered that the other course I played a lot when I was young, North Fork Country Club (Long Island) is another old Ross course. I guess that's why my favorites seem to be Ross designs. It was apparently imprinted on me at an early age that that is what golf courses were suppsed to feel like.

[Craig Disher]

I've played SPCC every year for the past 10, usually in late October, and noticed how the Cardinal 9 is slowly disappearing. In recent years, if you didn't know it was there you wouldn't see the remnants. Next time, I'll bring along the old aerial and do some bushwacking to see what's left of Ross's original holes; there might be evidence of the other 9 too.

I recall that an early drawing of the entire property hangs in the Elks clubhouse - can anyone confirm the date and what holes are pictured?

I agree with Chris on which holes are non-Ross. 1-4 appear to be the same. After 4, it's hard to tell where Ross's 5th was located. It may have been part of a lost 9 - which suggests that the Cardinal 5-9 are actually the final holes of a lost 18. The pond in front of the green on 6 was a later addition and may have been part of an entirely new hole. 7 is over Ross's corridor but may have been extended with a new tee - the pond in front of the tee was also post-Ross. 8 looks the same and of course 9 is totally different.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Looks like they are trying to reclaim some of the old fairway lines...wonder if they have anyone pictures...wonder what they do about all the grass clippings, too.....

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[SPNC_Chris]

I recall that an early drawing of the entire property hangs in the Elks clubhouse - can anyone confirm the date and what holes are pictured?

If it is the one I am thinking of, I don't think it is an original. I believe it dates from the '80's when there were plans to add an additional 9 holes. It is signed/labeled by Tom Jackson. The project was approved by the Town and some clearing was done but they never pulled the trigger.

I think most if not all the original plans are gone. The original clubhouse burned down about 35-40 years ago and took any archives with it.

The Town of Southern Pines owned the course and undeveloped land around it for a while. They bought it in 1941 for $20,000 and sold it in 1946 for $31,000. Before that, they were a lessee/operator from 1937-1941. It appears it was the Town that installed grass greens in 1938 "so as to compete with other courses in the section."

[SPNC_Chris]

A little more tasty info from Town minutes:

4-20-1938
"Frank Maples came before the Board in reference to the installation of grass greens at the Southern Pines Country Club now leased and being operated by the Town of Southern Pines . He stated he had gone over the course and made a study in reference to the building of the greens and the installation of a partial sprinkler system and tank wagon for watering the remaining greens . He pointed out that with the installation of grass greens at the Mid Pines Club, and the recent building of grass greens at the Pine Needles, that it was necessary that greens be installed at the Country Club if we expected to continue drawing a large percentage of the golfers visiting the section . He stated he would be willing to take full charge of the job at a fee of 15% of the cost of same, the Town to furnish trucks and equipment for building the greens . He estimated the cost on which his fee would be based, including the use of town equipment, at approximately $10,000."

From 4-25-1938

"The meeting was called to order by the Mayor who stated that the purpose of the special meeting was to go into the matter in reference to the installation of grass greens at the Southern Pines Country Club . The Clerk stated that he had gone over the grass greens course at the Pine Needles with Mr . O'Callaghan, Mr . Hart and Mr . Grinnell and had discussed the cost of replacing the present sand greens at the Southern Pines Club with Ang Maples who was in charge of building the grass greens at Pine Needles, now rated as one of the prettiest golf courses in the section. He stated that the committee had further discussed the matter with Mr . Geo . Dunlap and Mr . Harrison Stutz, co-operators of the Pine Needles, and that arrangements could be made to have Mr. Maples take charge of building the greens at the Country Club at a cost of 50¢ per hour, plus transportation to and from the job with his truck, and it would be necessary during, the period of time the greens were being installed that Mr . Maples put in an average of about five hours per day . During the growing season it woud not be necessary for him to be at the Club except during the time when the greens were being top-soiled and Italian Rye was being sown into the greens It was estimated that the capital outlay, including fertilizer, proposed pipe lines, lawn mowers and sprinklers including tank wagon, would cost approximetely $1,500 . or less .

After an informal discussion a motion was made by L . V. O'Callaghan. , seconded by R . L . Hart, that the Town go ahead with installation of grass greens at once in order to get as much benefit as possible from the summer growing season and to pipe lines and sprinklers to the first ,seventeenth and eighteenth greens, and the first and seventeenth tees, as well as providing a sprinkler system for the grounds on the east side of the clubhouse ...
...An informal discussion followed in reference to the $35 .00 seasonal membership at the Southern Pines Country Club given to business houses of the Town . After due consideration a motion was made by L . V .O'Callaghan, seconded by Chas . S . Patch, that the $35.00 rate remain
in force"

[hhuffines]

Chris,

Do those minutes refer to R.L. Hart as Robert Lee
Hart in any way?  If so, he was my grandfather and I am
incredibly happy to see this!  He died at an early age
and we have little info on him.

Thanks!!!

Hart Huffines

[SPNC_Chris]

Chris,

Do those minutes refer to R.L. Hart as Robert Lee
Hart in any way?  If so, he was my grandfather and I am
incredibly happy to see this!  He died at an early age
and we have little info on him.

Thanks!!!

Hart Huffines

Perhaps. coupling together a few different ways his name was listed, he was Dr. Robert L. Hart. The minutes of 3-7-41 indicate he was absent due to illness. Those seem to be the last ones he is mentioned in. His term was up in May and he was not on the new ballot.

From 11-17-37

"The Clerk read a letter from the Canadian Golfer requesting
the town to renew its space in their medium the same as in past years for which the cost would be approximately $135 .00, and advising that the Canadian Golfer had published a story and several photographs of scenes in and around the country club in their November issue . After due consideration a motion was made by L . V . O'Callaghan, seconded by H . J . Betterley,that we continue our space with the above mentioned medium .
Ayes : H . J . Betterley, L . IT . O'Callaghan, Chas . S . Patch, E . C . Stevens , and Robt . L . Hart ."

[SPNC_Chris]

Something interesting from my previous post is that Canadian Golfer Magazine apparently did a story with photos on Southern Pines CC in their Nov 1937 issue.

I don't know if that source has been used by anyone researching SPCC to date.

[Craig Disher]

The aerial I have is from Jan 1939 and it shows that grass greens have been built on the primary 18. The Cardinal 9 still has sand greens.

[David Stamm]

Thanks for posting these photo's Mark. While some tree removal is in order in some spots, it looks wonderful. The contours on 6 are amazing!

[Mark Bourgeois]

Let's talk about Ross's siting of the greens. There's such a gentle rhythm, a flow, from one to the next. Down, up, over, side, down, etc.

It's sort of like a three-dimensional metronome: back, forth, side. Back, forth, side.

Factor in the tees, and this is one great walk!

Mark

[Mark Bourgeois]

Sean,

No, I enjoyed 17, the play off the tee indicated by the angle of the green and the left-hand bunker, plus the way the green sits down in a hollow.

That said, I prefer other downhill holes (1, 8 & 13 in particular) on the course to 17 for their greater ground movement, funkier greens and (in the case of 8 & 13) preciped siting.

Also -- and this is minor -- I felt the view could be improved.  What's with the two clumps of weed-choked scrub behind the green? Do we need those?

And the tree line down the right side is "gap toothed." Either cut down those trees or fill the gaps. (That is, in single-file -- don't create a forest over there.)  Cutting them down would make the play of that hole as purely defined by a green as a par 4 gets, but if you did that, I guess you could bring golfers on 18 fairway into the crosshairs, so great is the advantage of missing your drive to the right vs. left.

I DO like the current version over the one pictured in Ran's writeup though:


In fact, comparing the "before and after" pics of 1 and 17 alone stirs the imagination as to the possibilities, yes?

Mark

[Mark Bourgeois]

Oh, front nine vs. back nine: I didn't think the back nine was that weak but it does suffer in comparison to that awesome front.

My (mild) criticism of the back is my feeling that 13-15 felt a little too much like 8-10, and not as strong.

But I would love to have a daily crack at this course, just to see how long it took me to tire of it. That over / under must run well into the four digits, especially if the trees were cut back to bring the wind more into play.

Mark

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