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Jay Flemma

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #75 on: July 29, 2007, 09:05:01 PM »
Tommy,

Before I go off into some self-imposed exile, what is it exactly that annoyed you so much, that you felt that you had to issue a challenge?

If it wasn't for the extraneous banter that takes place here, this site would be deader than a meeting of Shakers. Shall  we discuss the vagaries of the NGLA's 6th greens' angles ad infinitum?

Answers, please.

Bob





Bob, please do NOT go into self-imposed exile.  The whole thrust of this thread is we need more grace, class and humility on this site and you are a source of all three.  I wish I adhered to your good example more often, but I also know that - like any reasonable person - I only threaten when I feel threatened.

Please stay.

To the rest of us, why are we fighting on a thread that is supposed to inspire us to act more pacificly?

Bill M - I am a member of another board exactly like GCA for Internet and Entertainment law and we all get along just fine - our only rule is "please dont say anything in a post you wouldn't say over dinner."

Many of you have had dinner with me or played golf with me.  I think many of you were surprised with what kind of dinner and golf companion I make.  I know that sometimes I breath fire when attacked and maybe sometimes I do fly off the handle.  For example, recently I got to heavy handed with Wayne and Noel.  I only did so because I felt more than disrespected, I felt as though my talent, hard work and work product for my employers was being attacked just for the sake of being attacked.  Two wrongs dont make a right and Noel and Wayne, I shouldn't have written to you, I should have called you.

But I also know that - frequently, when I think it can do some good - I'll call someone and try to iron out the situation.  As Patrick O'Brian did in the Master and Commander series, he had Aubrey and Maturin have a helluva fight - BUT THEN PATCH UP THE QUARREL AND BECOME FRIENDS FOR LIFE.

There is no reason why TWO people working together on GCA can't do the same thing - but it takes two.

Noel, we used to be friends and have a mutual respect for one another.  I know circumstances right now make reconciliation tough, but I never rule it out.  Neither of us has done anything to the other that "I'm sorry" can't fix.

The last thing I'll add is that the gossip spreads it's own evil.  I choose that word with precision - its spreads EVIL.  Sometimes grown men here act like a sewing circle.  It's all a matter of stop and think before you type.

I'll close with this.  Those of you that are Harry Potter fans saw in Book 7 how the bad guy (Voldemort) met his end through ignorance.  He dismissed without learning things he didn't understand or see the value in.  The same is true here.  Wayne Morrison and I may be looking daggers at one another, but I'll certainly read the book on Flynn when it comes out.  I won't make the mistake of dismissing it without reading it first simply because he and I have personal differences.

***THIS IS NOT TO BE CONSTRUED IN ANY WAY AS AN ATTACK ON WAYNE OR ANYONE ELSE***  Maybe the two of us think the other is a vulgar man, but our respective work and intelligence are not.  And you know what?  Good people on both sides think the other is a fine man.  

Someday, when enough water is under enough bridges, think lucidly about the person you dislike.  It's the rare occasion you can run down the list of virtues and not find they have some - true, there are some scoundrels in life, but upon reflection, most of the time when you truly reflect on someone, you find the differences between you are much less nthan you perceive.

Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #76 on: July 29, 2007, 09:13:11 PM »
...and I thought GCA was one of the few places on the internet that would be free of Harry Potter spoilers  ::) :'(.  Not everyone has finished the book, ya know.  At least I averted my eyes after learning the fate of the bad guy, as I figured he bit the dust one way or another.

Cheers,
Brad
« Last Edit: July 29, 2007, 09:13:53 PM by Brad Swanson »

Gary Daughters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #77 on: July 29, 2007, 09:37:33 PM »

If a respected member of the board has been booted over access issues, the matter should be resolved in a spirit of forgiveness.

This may seem quaint, but I grew up with the notion of waiting for invitations rather than inviting oneself.  It's an antiquated concept, I know.  But it might be worth considering.

There's a flipside, though.  Members of clubs who extend standing invitations should be aware that said invitations may be taken up, and that if you cop an attitude about it then you're the one being rude.

THE NEXT SEVEN:  Alfred E. Tupp Holmes Municipal Golf Course, Willi Plett's Sportspark and Driving Range, Peachtree, Par 56, Browns Mill, Cross Creek, Piedmont Driving Club

Tom Zeni

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #78 on: July 29, 2007, 10:28:16 PM »
I don't know if this old anecdote will relate, but on a college campus, there was a fraternity directly across the street from a sorority.  As such, the frat guys, being frat guys, took to undressing in their rooms without pulling down the shades.

After a few days of this, the fraternity received a sharp note from the adjacent sorority. The note stated, "Please pull down the shades when undressing. We do not wish to take a course in anatomy."

The Frat boys shot back.." The course isn't mandatory."

As I'm sure it escaped none of you, the point of all this is that if you don't like the tone of the thread, don't enter it. As for me, I enjoy the grillroom type chat among architectural discussions for the reasons Mr. Huntley so elegantly stated.

So it iswritten, so it is said.

Mike_Cirba

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #79 on: July 29, 2007, 10:50:14 PM »
The only problem with OT threads is that they move architecturally related threads to page 2 and beyond, where they are almost never seen or heard from again.


Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #80 on: July 29, 2007, 11:33:26 PM »
[rant]Jeez, I open this thread and what I get out of it is a spoiler for a BRAND NEW BOOK THAT HAS BEEN JUST BEEN RELEASED AND I AM ONE CHAPTER THROUGH IT, READING IT TO MY TWO BOYS.  

IS COMMON SENSE IN SHORT SUPPLY?[/rant]
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #81 on: July 29, 2007, 11:52:31 PM »
If the person punted is who I think it may be, and was in fact punted, then there must be an error somewhere.  He is one of the most gracious folks I know, and has absolute adherence to the philosophy on this site.  Only someone with a true love of GCA would walk down 18 flights of stairs (because a fire near his hotel cut the elevators) with clubs in tow, and wait in a pouring rain on Michigan Avenue  (you can imagine the looks from drenched passersby) to hitch a ride to a game at a soggy parkland course.  Actually, I think he did it because of the corned beef hash at the club.   :D

As to the subject of the thread, the main page of the site says:  

GolfClubAtlas.com is presented to promote the frank commentary on the world's finest golf courses.

While we must always be respectful, frank commentary is critical commentary, sarcastic commentary, and harsh commentary.  A number of valuable posters have left the site after what appeared to be unseemly hounding because of their frank criticism of this or that favorite.  A lot of folks disagreed with the philosophy of Tom MacWood, the views of David Moriarty as well as others (everyone was glad to see rpurd go though  ;D), but I think that we did not treat them very well at times simply because their views were not in accord with ours.  I think they followed the rules, and I hope they (and others) come back.

Jeff
That was one hellacious beaver.

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Back up, please
« Reply #82 on: July 29, 2007, 11:57:32 PM »
Who got asked to leave and why?

I'm somehow missing this despite sifting through pages and pages.

My one comment to Tommyknockers, who I do consider a friend although we've never met in person...

You can say that people should behave as though they are a guest at the nicest club in America, but that is simply not a standard that has been enforced here ever.

Me included.

I hope the decorum settles to a level acceptable to Ran, Tommy, and everyone.

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #83 on: July 30, 2007, 12:44:45 AM »
What's wrong with asking for access?

As a friend of mine here said once: "if you don't ask, the answer is always no."


I could see where those who are members of top clubs would grow weary of people they don't know asking for access.  Some people are happy to meet anyone who shares a common interest, others might not be interested in that unless they knew the person well through discussions on GCA.

I personally think it would be very bad form to send someone a private mail and ask to play their course unless they'd made it very clear that they were happy to accomodate anyone who wanted to see it.  Sure, that is probably going to get you more invites than if you for wait for them, but on the other hand it might make the people who are getting too many requests for access just decide to leave GCA to avoid the issue.  Especially if they have a bad experience which has been alluded to here.  I don't know any details about this either, but then I've never asked for or received access to any courses through GCA since I rarely take my clubs with me when I travel because flying is enough of a pain without checking luggage that's heavy and unwieldy!

I don't have a problem with posts of the form "I'm going to be in the Long Island area next week, does anyone have any recommendations for courses I should play since I've never played anything there".  Maybe you get lucky and score an invite to NGLA, maybe some other course that's less famous but still quite interesting and definitely worth seeing, maybe you just get recommendations for public courses to play (because, to be honest, if I was travelling to Long Island, I wouldn't know if there even are any publics there, and if there are whether any are worth playing without asking on GCA)  But at least if there's a Shinnecock or Sebonack member hiding on GCA he won't feel hassled and can just ignore it if he isn't interested in accomodating someone he doesn't know.

We certainly don't want a situation where people want to join GCA only because they've heard its a great way to get access to private courses.  I know if I was a member of a desireable course and I was getting access requests from people who have only posted a handful of times I'd probably get tired of it pretty quickly and my visits to GCA would become more and more rare.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Phil_the_Author

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #84 on: July 30, 2007, 01:37:30 AM »
Gee Doug, 2,224 posts on here and you state, "I was travelling to Long Island, I wouldn't know if there even are any publics there, and if there are whether any are worth playing without asking on GCA..."

I find it difficult to believe...

I have two words for you... Bethpage Black and Red (make that 4) and Blue (errr 6) and Yellow and Green (oh yeah that's like 14); then theres Eisenhower Red, White and Blue, Montauk Downs, Merrick Road Park golf course... and a WHOLE BUNCH more!  :o

 
« Last Edit: July 30, 2007, 01:38:58 AM by Philip Young »

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #85 on: July 30, 2007, 06:45:24 AM »
For OT, how about another section of GCA.com (I know this has been suggested before)...

This section of the board could then be pruned every 30 days - threads over 30 days old are deleted.

At least that would solve the costing issue.

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #86 on: July 30, 2007, 08:57:23 AM »

This may seem quaint, but I grew up with the notion of waiting for invitations rather than inviting oneself.  It's an antiquated concept, I know.  But it might be worth considering.


Well spoken Gary.
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #87 on: July 30, 2007, 09:25:08 AM »
I think it's a worthwhile endeavor (although not enviable) for Tommy and Ran to wish the level of discourse here would increase.

I think the key is to realize the harm the OT topics actually do to on topic discussions. They do in fact send them to the back pages quicker than they should. I don't think this means they (OT topics) should be eliminated, but there should be a concerted effort by us all to scan the front page or two and if they are OT heavy, hold off for a bit on whatever topic is on our minds. If it's so important that it cannot wait, well hopefully that means it is on topic.

Access...not sure what to say about that. If you make an invite or accept a request it's on you in my opinion.

I have only played with a couple of GCA guys and I've really enjoyed that opportunity, but the thought of getting stiffed or stiffing a host is mindboggling. These people should have their lips wrapped around their heads...

Tommy,

I truly do not feel much of the conversation here would be out of bounds at any club in the world. The tone gets a bit loud occassionally, but that can be accepted in the right context, I think.


Suggestion to cure these ills...when you join a club it is typically through a friend...can we have new members brought on through current member recommendation? Have the GCA wings spread far enough yet to make it inclusive enough?

wsmorrison

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #88 on: July 30, 2007, 09:31:47 AM »
I get a lot of requests for play and find it quite easy to manage the process myself.  If someone were to abuse a gentlemanly approach, I would bring it to the attention of one of the moderators.  

Although it seems obvious to some, I think it remains to be said that it is not appropriate to ask people you don't know to help you get on a course you do not belong to.  How can someone vouch for the integrity of someone to a friend that is a member of the club when the requester is not personally known?  I think it is foolish to ask for such favors and have no problems expressing that to those that make such outlandish requests.

Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #89 on: July 30, 2007, 10:13:36 AM »
This may seem quaint, but I grew up with the notion of waiting for invitations rather than inviting oneself.  It's an antiquated concept, I know.  But it might be worth considering.

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement, Gary.  I wasn't aware of the pervasive position of entitlement of several (many?) GCAers that has been brought to light here.  I've been fortunate to have played several great courses due to the generosity of one particular individual, but these were opportunities presented to me without solicitation on my part.  I pledge I have not and will not PM spam for access, and if I miss-out due to it, so be it.

Cheers,
Brad  

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #90 on: July 30, 2007, 10:23:53 AM »
Brad and Gary are right.  

GCA.com has brought me wonderful golf experiences that I would never have experienced otherwise.  Things like the Dixie Cup and Mr. Mucci's outings.  Things like the friends I've met at the Philly area outings.  Things like the GCA get-together we had at French Creek in 2004.  An amazing, never-to-be-forgotten dinner at a world-class club with world-class gentlemen.  And I've also played some amazing places at the invitation of my GCA friends.  I've also had the privilige of having treehouse members out at my club.

But I've never asked for access.   My life will be complete even if I don't have an opportunity to play "Super Nice GC".

Besides, if I really wanted to play somewhere, my PGA pro would be happy to make a call.  Obviously, a "no" from the other club is always an acceptable and respected answer.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2007, 10:25:16 AM by Dan Herrmann »

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #91 on: July 30, 2007, 10:48:32 AM »
Thank goodness we rarely have to deal with this "access" problem in the UK & Ireland...

Sounds like a nightmare...

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #92 on: July 30, 2007, 10:49:49 AM »
This thread is becoming too long and I am reluctant to chip in but for whatever they're worth these are my thoughts.

Tommy may have been somewhat inartful in his expression but for the most part he is on the money in his observations.

First and foremost is the issue of access.  It is a poorly kept secret that certain of our brethren have used this site as a means to seek access to golf courses that would otherwise be unavailable.  Some do it subtley by letting it be known they will be in town and asking those with whom they have a minimal relationship whether they can get together for a game when they are in town.  Others are so bold as to simply ask to be invited.  This is not a business negotiation where "if you don't ask you don't get" is appropriate.  Guests to your home, or your club, or any other area that is yours are asked; that is what makes them guests.  My club is not that well known and I have asked more than a few of my friends from the board to visit but I have always done the asking.  Even I have been the subject of access trolling. Note to the abusers; it doesn't take long for word to spread and your chances for success are reduced dramatically.  But the uninvited requests are more than a little annoying and should not be tolerated.

Civility issues arise from time to time.  As this is a discussion group, people should expect their views to be challenged and vigorously.  Personal attacks are out of bounds.  They add uneccessary unpleasantness and do nothing to advance the discussion.  Attacking people off line may even be worse because others on the site don't know what is going on and can easily misread the cause of any tension.  Respect each other's right to hold views even if you don't give much weight to the views expressed.

Finally the "grillroom " atmosphere is a lot of fun.  When friends get together, even electronically, to have fun and talk about common interests it is easy to stray from the main topic.  To completely eliminate these types of discussions is next to impossible.  But we should all try to be careful to try and stay on topic as much as possible because it is the love of GCA that brought us all here in the first place.  Also, we are all guests here and we should respect our host's wishes, particularly since he is paying for the site.

Which leads to a last topic.  I confess I am a little late in reupping my contribution to the site and I will remedy that failing ASAP.  I urge all of us to help defray the costs of the site.  Read the section on Contributions if you need detail.

End of rant.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #93 on: July 30, 2007, 10:50:03 AM »
I thought a lot about this thread over the weekend. It saddens me to see Tommy and Donnie Beck frustrated.

There's no easy solution to the problem at hand, or even necessarily a concrete understanding that there is a problem.

The "grillroom" atmosphere does wonders for improving the community like atmosphere on here, and even does a good job of helping others maintain civility on On Topic, architecture threads. Who can deny that they're less likely to attack someone, if they've shown themselves to be a friend on another thread?

On the other hand, it is very frustrating to start actual architecture thread and see them spiral down the page, and off into oblivion, with nary a response. I've started more than a few of those myself. Sometimes I look at them and realize, in retrospect, they were boring and got the fate they deserved. But sometimes they simply got lost in the sea of posts on here, and I think maybe we missed an opportunity to learn something.

So there's a line to be drawn somewhere, and I'm not at all certain where that line should be. But I am certain we all need a kick in the butt every now and then, and it's unfortunate that Tommy is the one that needs to do it (Patrick does it every now and then as well, hats off to them both for taking the heat).

I suspect Tommy - and whomever else has a problem with OT threads and posts - would be more tolerant and accepting of them if the many participants did their share of starting and responding to actual architecture threads. I know I post a good bit on OT threads, but Tommy, someone I consider a good friend, has never said a word to me about it, and I suspect it's because I also make a real effort to add to the architecture discussion (even if Matt W doesn't think I add anything meaningful :).

Let your conscience be your guide.

-----

The access issue is an entirely different one. I've spoken with posters who say, after sharing thoughts on some great course, they were inundated with requests from others who wanted to know how they got on. It wouldn't even occur to me to ask someone something like that.

As someone who has received numerous invitations (even from Barney!), I thank those generous enough to share both their courses and their passion with me.

In the end, it comes down mostly to trust. If someone shows that his passion is architecture and not simply list checking, the invites will come, and even the occasional inquiry will likely be well tolerated, if handled properly. Everyone should know how to do that by now.

Again, let your conscience be your guide.

-----

Lastly, I don't think it's proper to call out Tommy - or any moderator - in public for his role in the thankless duty of moderating. That is certainly something best discussed in private, as are virtually all issues with the administration side of the site.

And don't bother the moderators with whining about other posters!

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

John Kavanaugh

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #94 on: July 30, 2007, 11:30:26 AM »
If you want great off topic discussion for the golf fan where you can voice your own opinion please go to www.GeoffShackelford.com  

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #95 on: July 30, 2007, 11:37:29 AM »
John,

I briefly, and unsuccessfully, scanned the home page looking for what is and what is not "On Topic", please help...

John Kavanaugh

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #96 on: July 30, 2007, 11:50:28 AM »
John,

I briefly, and unsuccessfully, scanned the home page looking for what is and what is not "On Topic", please help...

A perfect example today is where Paul T decided to start two threads both about womens golf.  One is on topic enough because it does discuss the architecture of TOC as it relates to the women's game and the other is a slap in the face of this very thread because it has zero to do with architecture.  My hand of man thread walks a tight rope of topicality but I think fits this site in a suitable way.  Even though you are a low handicap I have faith that you know an off topic when you see one.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #97 on: July 30, 2007, 11:57:35 AM »
John,

I briefly, and unsuccessfully, scanned the home page looking for what is and what is not "On Topic", please help...

A perfect example today is where Paul T decided to start two threads both about womens golf.  One is on topic enough because it does discuss the architecture of TOC as it relates to the women's game and the other is a slap in the face of this very thread because it has zero to do with architecture.  My hand of man thread walks a tight rope of topicality but I think fits this site in a suitable way.  Even though you are a low handicap I have faith that you know an off topic when you see one.

John - I realize the other thread is OT but I labeled it as such and i thought others might find it interesting, so I posted it

i would think such a topic might very well be discussed in "the finest clubs in AMerica", which is  how Tommy said GCA should be done

199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #98 on: July 30, 2007, 12:08:36 PM »
I can filter through the off topic stuff reasonably well.

My primary concern is the access game.  I wouldn't like fielding multiple access requests from veritable strangers.  I will second Shel's comment that access hounds are identified in behind the scenes gossip.

Seeing a few great golf courses improves one's understanding of superior architecture.  Making friends with similar interests is much more important.  

Rich Goodale

Re:I Challenge You All.........
« Reply #99 on: July 30, 2007, 12:36:03 PM »
This topic is completely OT and should be uterly cryt done.....

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