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David Stamm

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Poppy Hills
« on: July 12, 2007, 11:51:59 AM »
I was flipping through a book I have last night and came across Poppy Hills and it reminded me of my round there. The Monterey Peninsula is such a mecca for the game that it's easy to forget the not quite so famous courses up in god's country there. While Poppy Hills is not what you would call a course that flies under the radar, it's sometimes easy to forget what a solid course it is. Everyone has their opinions and some don't think that greatly of it, but I truly enjoyed my round there. There are some really solid holes there. I think the opening hole is one of the toughest openers for a public course I can think of and 5 is always ranked one of the toughest on tour. Overall, the NCGA has a very good course that the memebers can proudly call their own. I would encourage anyone who hasn't played it to not by pass the chance to do so. I'm sure the No Cal guys can chime in since they have played many more times than I, but Poppy is a very fun course.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

rjsimper

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Re:Poppy Hills
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2007, 12:06:05 PM »
I played there for the first (and only) time in May and thought that is was a very average course in a very pretty setting.

I'm surprised you thought it was a very fun course...I'm not sure I would call it fun...a nice walk in the woods, perhaps.  I thought the par 5s were one of the crazier sets of designs I've seen.

Overall, and based on all the crap I see the course take here and from other sources, I was pleasantly surprised by it's averageness...as I expected it to be close to awful...so my generally ambivalent/accepting position is entirely based on the fact that I was grading on a curve.

I think if given a choice I'd rather spend less for PG Muni or more + drive for Pasatiempo.

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David Stamm

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Re:Poppy Hills
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2007, 12:41:51 PM »
Ryan, I agree. Given the choice, I would rather play Pasatiempo. You know how I feel about that course. It's very special to me. And PG is so much fun to play, especially the back nine just as the sun is rising. Fond memories.

I would not call PH average. What would that make Rancho Canada, Laguna Seca amd Carmel Valley Ranch? I didn't mind the par 5's. I've seen worse. It is a pretty setting, but don't sell the course short. While far from perfect, the course has some good holes. And remember, the course is reasonable if you are an SCGA member since the NCGA extends a discount to members. While PH is not on nearly the same level as some of it's neighbors, it's a course I enjoy playing. Maybe I'm just a whore for beautiful settings. ;)
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Mike Sweeney

Re:Poppy Hills
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2007, 12:46:55 PM »
Quote from: David Stamm on July 12, 2007, 12:41:51 PM

I would not call PH average.

I would call it average in the RTJ portfolio that I have played, and the day I played it probably 10 years ago, it was long and hard too.
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Tim Leahy

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Re:Poppy Hills
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2007, 01:05:52 PM »
One of the reasons PH gets a bad rap is because the NCGA members used to get the discount at Spyglass Hill and going from there to PH is like going from Marilyn Monroe to Joan Rivers. PH bad holes are very bad and its good holes are very good which balances out to an average golf course in a beautiful setting for a great price for NCGA members.
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Steve Pieracci

Re:Poppy Hills
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2007, 01:49:51 PM »
Quote from: Tim Leahy on July 12, 2007, 01:05:52 PM
One of the reasons PH gets a bad rap is because the NCGA members used to get the discount at Spyglass Hill and going from there to PH is like going from Marilyn Monroe to Joan Rivers. PH bad holes are very bad and its good holes are very good which balances out to an average golf course in a beautiful setting for a great price for NCGA members.

Please elaborate on which holes are bad and why.  
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Tim Leahy

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Re:Poppy Hills
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2007, 01:59:25 PM »
Steve, just off the top of my head, No. 2 par three that used to have one big two level green that now has a ridiculous fringe between the upper and lower levels. No. 9, par 5 where you have to hit driver, seven iron to have a flat lie to hit another seven iron to the green, or you hit to a valley that has no fairway and only rough. No. 12, 90 degree dog leg at the 240 mark on a par five that isn't reachable and has almost no level layup area.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2007, 02:02:34 PM by Tim Leahy »
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David Stamm

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Re:Poppy Hills
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2007, 02:12:39 PM »
Quote from: Tim Leahy on July 12, 2007, 01:59:25 PM
Steve, just off the top of my head, No. 2 par three that used to have one big two level green that now has a ridiculous fringe between the upper and lower levels. No. 9, par 5 where you have to hit driver, seven iron to have a flat lie to hit another seven iron to the green, or you hit to a valley that has no fairway and only rough. No. 12, 90 degree dog leg at the 240 mark on a par five that isn't reachable and has almost no level layup area.


Tim, I believe that they changed the hole to have 2 seperate greens, there by changing the characterstics from day to day, and I'm guessing to save on wear and tear (?) because of the high number of rounds there. I'm only speculationg there.

As far as #9, the green is reachable in 2 if you can thread the drive over the left bunker. It's a narrow landing area, but from there you are about 240 out. Obviously the prudent play is to the right.

I'm trying to remember the lay up area on 12. I don't seem to remember it being that uneven, but I may be wrong. I don't think every par 5 should have to be able to be reached in 2. Is it a bad hole? I'm not sure, but I would agree it's not one of the better ones there. As par 5's, 4 and 10 are probably better.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

David Stamm

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Re:Poppy Hills
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2007, 02:17:40 PM »
Quote from: Tim Leahy on July 12, 2007, 01:05:52 PM
One of the reasons PH gets a bad rap is because the NCGA members used to get the discount at Spyglass Hill and going from there to PH is like going from Marilyn Monroe to Joan Rivers. PH bad holes are very bad and its good holes are very good which balances out to an average golf course in a beautiful setting for a great price for NCGA members.


Interesting Tim. Let me ask you, if you took the dunes holes away (1-5), how would the rest of SH compare to PH. Are they that far off in your opinion?
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Scott Seward

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Re:Poppy Hills
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2007, 02:46:45 PM »
Disclaimer - I work for the NCGA so I am looking at said course out my window as I type.

#2 is two seperate greens, used to be one compete green.

#9 Almost all scratch players go for this green. It is a very narrow and long green.

#12 This hole was supposed to be a par 4 but late in the design phase a grove of gowan cypress trees was discovered. This limited what Jones, Jr. (not Sr. as someone said earlier) was able to do.
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Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re:Poppy Hills
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2007, 02:49:46 PM »
Scott it is good to see you back on. I hope all is well in the land of great beauty and great golf.
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David Stamm

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Re:Poppy Hills
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2007, 02:54:07 PM »
Quote from: Scott Seward on July 12, 2007, 02:46:45 PM
Disclaimer - I work for the NCGA so I am looking at said course out my window as I type.

#2 is two seperate greens, used to be one compete green.

#9 Almost all scratch players go for this green. It is a very narrow and long green.

#12 This hole was supposed to be a par 4 but late in the design phase a grove of gowan cypress trees was discovered. This limited what Jones, Jr. (not Sr. as someone said earlier) was able to do.

Thanks for the info Scott. What was the reason for making 2 seperate greens on 2?
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tim Leahy

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Re:Poppy Hills
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2007, 02:55:46 PM »
David, I like the forest holes at SH better than PH also. SH is an older grove of trees and has more of an Olympic Club feel to than PH does and Olympic has always been my favorite course in NoCal.
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Mike Benham

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Re:Poppy Hills
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2007, 04:01:06 PM »
I find Poppy Hills to be a very challenging course, one that I have never played a solid round of golf on for 18 holes and one that I find it difficult to get the ball close to the hole on a consistent basis.  It is not a golf course where you are going to routinely have 26-28 putts per round.

The greens are on the big side and are either elevated above the fairway or have containment mounding, an odd design feature.

The 9th was originally designed with two sets of tees that provided different angles to the fairway that, in theory, allowed for more aggressive play without increasing the risk (Edit: primarily the NLE lower tee).

It is a relative bargain (relative to the Monterey Peninsula) to play for NCGA members but I have lost the desire to drive 1 1/2 hours to go play it and haven't done so in close to 5 years.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2007, 05:03:31 PM by Mike Benham »
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Scott Seward

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Re:Poppy Hills
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2007, 04:35:37 PM »
I believe the two greens were broken up for maintenance reasons. Tslope between is very difficult to cut on a daily basis.

There were two sets of tees on 9, but the upper tee was extended several years ago, and it is now used full time. The other tee was taken out.

We know the course can be quirky, but I appreciate that many of the par 5s really make you think about your second shot - a rare occurence.
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David Stamm

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Re:Poppy Hills
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2007, 04:59:56 PM »
Quote from: Scott Seward on July 12, 2007, 04:35:37 PM
I believe the two greens were broken up for maintenance reasons. Tslope between is very difficult to cut on a daily basis.

There were two sets of tees on 9, but the upper tee was extended several years ago, and it is now used full time. The other tee was taken out.

 

Thanks Scott. Now it makes sense. Is there one green used more than the other and if so, is there a reason for it?
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Scott Seward

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Re:Poppy Hills
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2007, 05:23:26 PM »
The rear green is used for tournaments because it is more difficult, though the forward green has some trmendous movement.
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Jon Spaulding

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Re:Poppy Hills
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2007, 12:57:22 AM »
The first time I played in Monterey was at Poppy; very cool(and affordable). It has slipped down "the list" ever since, but I always enjoy getting back out there. You carve out that acreage, put it anywhere else in the state.....at the NCGA rate..... and the parking lot becomes a campground :-*.

Always found the par 4's to be solid, asking one to move the ball different ways throughout the round. A few of the par 5's might be weak, but #4 is an excellent hole and #18 is dear to my heart 8). I like that they both ask you to move the ball differently off the tee than the approach.
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AndrewB

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Re:Poppy Hills
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2007, 09:01:41 PM »
Rumor has it that there will be some changes to the course in the future, somehow related to signing on for another 10 years with the PGA Tour.  Perhaps Scott can confirm, dispell, or add to the rumor.

- The first tee will be moved back and to the left near (or on) where the ninth green currently is.

- The 11th hole will be reversed, with a tee from the curent green site playing towards a green at the current tee site.

- The 12th hole will become a par four.
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Bob_Huntley

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Re:Poppy Hills
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2007, 09:34:25 PM »
Many years ago when Poppy Hills opened, I played in a NCGA Tournament. The first hole was, quite possibly, the worst opening hole in Christendom. OB right, nowhere to go left, and it was taking the first group off, something like thirty minuts to play the hole. I said to John Zoller that this was a six hour round in the making. Zoller, then the Executive Director of the NCGA and who had something to do with the design took umbrage and refused to admit there was a problem. We had been friends before but he wasn't very friendly thereafter.


As with Spanish Bay, Poppy Hills could have been so much better.


Bob
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Steve Pieracci

Re:Poppy Hills
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2007, 10:32:40 PM »
Andrew,

Wow, those changes sound extensive.  I can only picture them with a large amount of trees removed.  And that would be a good thing!  The pine grove along the left side of the first fairway would need cuting back.  This would open up that tee shot and make it easier to catch the down slope to lower fairway.  The eleventh tee box is narrow and tucked back in between a bunch of trees.  I would then expect that entire section of trees between the 11th tee and the 12th green would be removed.  It sounds like a good plan.  The 11th green complex is It would then require a long walk from the 10th green to the 11th tee.  But, they could use one less par 5 on that back nine.

The first hole @ PH


10th green next to the pond, 11th tee and green, and 12th tee.


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Adam Clayman

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Re:Poppy Hills
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2007, 11:04:24 PM »
Seems odd to change the eleventh so dramatically when you could just shorten the 12th by moving the teeing ground forward.

The eleventh is one of those holes that always seemed to have some serious mojo. I remember one story where during match play one guy aced the hole to put a stop to a charge by his opponent.
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Mike Benham

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Re:Poppy Hills
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2007, 12:09:14 AM »
Quote from: Andrew Biggadike on July 20, 2007, 09:01:41 PM
... somehow related to signing on for another 10 years with the PGA Tour ...  


So after more than 20 years of public play by a golf association of 175,000 members, the NCGA will make major alterations to the course based on the need to keep the AT&T West Coast National Pro-AM?  

If these rumors are true, then I am a little more then disappointed in the NCGA ...
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Jon Spaulding

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Re:Poppy Hills
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2007, 10:57:32 AM »
Disgruntled NCGA members can always vote with their feet and head over to Poppy Ridge :'(.
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Bob_Huntley

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Re:Poppy Hills
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2007, 01:08:45 PM »
The NCGA may well spend a bundle of money on such alterations and having done so, it might well be for nought. The lobbying by the A.T.&T. organizers to get MPCC back into the rota is intense.... the opposition by some members is equally so.

Bob
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