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Dan Moore

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Re:Arcadia Bluffs vs Kingsley Club
« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2007, 12:10:32 AM »
I just don't understand this talk about the difficulty of the 9th hole at Kingsley.    All you need to do is follow the architects directions.  Now if only we could have made a putt.  Right Ed.   ;)



"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

John Kirk

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Re:Arcadia Bluffs vs Kingsley Club
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2007, 09:27:54 AM »
Recently, we tried to play to that pin on #9 from the south tee.  I pushed a 5-iron to the top of the green.  I tried to keep the ball on the green by putting on a line that I felt had the best chance.  I made a 15 footer from off the green for 5.

If ever in that position again, I would purposely putt into one of the bunkers, probably the left one, and try to get up and down for a 4.  The other option would be to hit a 35 yard pitch to the rough beyond the pin, and play from there.

But if you can hit a wedge within a 5 yard circle from the west tee, you can make a 2.

This hole is much like the 14th at Engineers, a 2 or 20 hole.

Brian_Sleeman

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Re:Arcadia Bluffs vs Kingsley Club
« Reply #52 on: July 24, 2007, 10:44:54 AM »
The 9th is one of my favorites at Kingsley, because first of all it's a great hero setting with a chance to make a 1 or 2 with a great shot, it can cause a wide range of opinions on ways to play recovery shots if the green is missed, it's so dramatic, and the scores can have a wide range with no penalty shots or lost balls involved (all the drama off the tee of #17 at Sawgrass with a ton more thrown in for all the recovery shots).  It's at most about 160 yards from what I recall, and is like no other shot I've ever played.  

That wide range of scores and slim margin for error seems to be the beef most of the critics have with this hole.  But if you miss the green, who says a direct line at the flag and the hero route must be played as your recovery?  Is there anything wrong with missing your tee shot in a bad spot and playing one of the conservative recovery options for a four?

As an example, I played it with the rest of the staff from Greywalls last year and one of the guys was cruising along at two under when we came to the 9th.  The flag was front right, and we played from the southern tees.  He boldly went right at it but knocked it into a really difficult spot behind the green on the right.  Instead of surveying his conservative options and playing for a four, he elected to hit a Mickelson flop and try to save three.  And a Mickelson flop is just what he did - three times in fact - and ended up walking off with a 7.

Afterwards we all tried different strategies from the position he'd been in to see what else could've been done.  It was one of the funnest moments of the day as we took about 15 minutes to try out every option and figure out what worked best.  In the end we thought the two best options he had were to play to a location short of the hole to give himself a backstop on his third shot (from the bunkers or rough in front), or take a slightly more aggressive route and play a running or low pitch shot up to the high elbow of the green (at a 90 degree angle from the hole), and let it trickle on down toward the hole.  The flop shot he tried was nearly impossible.  Every degree of risk was available, and even the overly courageous were given an option, as a flop shot could work (and did a couple times when we tried it), but was extremely risky.  Those who preferred to take that chance could do so if they wanted, and others could debate and discuss the merits of all other options depending on how risky they wanted to be.

To me, that was a blast to try to figure out, and is the kind of thing that to learn on a particular hole takes several repeat plays.  And to me, that is exactly the kind of thing I look for in a great hole: the need or at least strong encouragement to abandon the first heroic instinct, survey all of the options available, and then have at least a few very reasonable options left that good players could disagree on based on their own degree of aversion to risk.  In short, it's the kind of hole you remember, and can't wait to play again - at least in my eyes.  The great courses have them, and the bland ones don't.

Mark Arata

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Re:Arcadia Bluffs vs Kingsley Club
« Reply #53 on: July 24, 2007, 11:21:43 AM »
We played it from the short tees (west I believe) and the pin was right on the center ridge. I think between the group we hit it everywhere trying to hold the green and couldnt do it.

It is a very challenging hole to play, but it is extremely hard in certain (ie, all) pin placements from the short left tee box. It seemed easier from the other, longer box for some reason.

I stand by my statement that it is the shortest par 5 in america.  ;D Cant wait to play it again!
New Orleans, proud to swim home...........

Bill_McBride

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Re:Arcadia Bluffs vs Kingsley Club
« Reply #54 on: July 24, 2007, 11:24:02 AM »
Arcadia vs Kingsley is pretty simple for me.  Kingsley Club has a lot more quirk, more interesting greens, more walkable (although a tough walk itself).  Kingsley gets my vote, 8-2 probably.

Now Crystal Downs is another story.  It was my favorite in that area, and a course you could happily play every day of your life, like most of the MacKenzie courses I've had the good fortune to play.  There's something about his routings, the short green to tee walks, and he was always given access to wonderful land.  Crystal Downs is a special place indeed.

Enjoyed seeing you there, Brian.  It was a very fun day.

Brett Hochstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arcadia Bluffs vs Kingsley Club
« Reply #55 on: July 24, 2007, 12:45:19 PM »
Here's my take on the 9th.

It was on of the first holes I saw when I got up there. Going through the dunes and seeing that mean little piece of land sticking out I had two thoughts: "this is both different and awesome," and "you actually have to hit a golf ball to that?"  The ninth was somewhat of an obsession for me over the summer, with me trying to figure some sort of safe area in which to play.  Unlike number two, I never really found one.  Certain bunkers, depending on the hole location I guess.  But that is why it is a great matchplay hole.  I had a match with another one of the maintenance guys where he was in the other lobe of the green from the hole (front location from the south tees) and I was long right.  I played a runner too aggressively that fed into a bunker, where I blasted long into the deep stuff.  I hacked out a high shot onto the putting surface, made my fifteen footer, and walked away with the hole because my opponent blew it with the flatstick.  I told the rest of the group, "that's the beauty of matchplay right there, hitting four in a dead spot on a par 3 and still having it matter."  As for medal play, it really is a hit-it-or-die hole, and it looms in view from the first tee, possessing a sort of mental terror that grows as the round progresses that holes like the aforementioned 17th at Sawgrass have.  

Mark, if you couldn't hold it from the west, Dan has the greens well over speed.  Was it the invitational you were playing in?  I remember he got the greens way up over speed, like 11.5 or so, just for that event because some members or someone was bugging him about it.  It was supposed to be an experimental thing, I thought, I hoped.  With the slopes, they really should be much slower, and they usually are.
"From now on, ask yourself, after every round, if you have more energy than before you began.  'Tis much more important than the score, Michael, much more important than the score."     --John Stark - 'To the Linksland'

http://www.hochsteindesign.com

Mark Arata

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arcadia Bluffs vs Kingsley Club
« Reply #56 on: July 24, 2007, 03:57:20 PM »
They were fast, but not insanely fast, it was that you have to hit the ball high with some spin to make it stop and I cant do that, we tried to hit it to the left and let it run off the hill, but it picked up too much steam and went into the bunker each time.

I have somewhat of a low ball flight....you know, grounders, shanks, etc...... so it seemed that the south tee was easier for me to hold the green. I think I made par from there the one time we played it from those tees, and 4 or 5 every other time.

If you have the greens up at 11.5 - 12 and there is any kind of wind at your back, your only real chance at par is to put it in the front bunker and get up and down. And according to Mike, that is ok with him. He actually suggested hitting into the front bunkers and playing up from there. The funny thing to me is that I dont think I missed the green on 2 any of the times I played the hole, and Mike thought that was just as hard, if not harder than 9......go figure.
New Orleans, proud to swim home...........

Andy Troeger

Re:Arcadia Bluffs vs Kingsley Club
« Reply #57 on: July 24, 2007, 06:30:46 PM »
Mark,
From the two times I played, I thought #2 was MUCH MUCH MUCH harder than #9. I hit it in the front bunker to a front flag on #9 both rounds and made a 3 and an easy 4. #2 I made an X and lets see, oh yeah, another X! I couldn't keep it out of the black hole on the right!

Dan_Lucas

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Re:Arcadia Bluffs vs Kingsley Club
« Reply #58 on: July 25, 2007, 08:14:42 AM »
Brett

We still keep them a pretty steady 10.5. It was the Club Championship 2 yrs ago when I gave in and ran them up to 11.5-12 and the 5.5 hour rounds took any further pressure off me.

On #9 you can make a pretty safe 4 from anywhere on the inside of the elbow unless you hit a bad shot. You just have to forget about the pin and get it on the green. The outside of the elbow is a different story. Since we changed the mowing lines and converted a lot of the approach cut to rough height it has played easier, but still need a perfectly executed shot to keep it on the green from that side.

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