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Mike_Young

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OLD DEAD GUY SOCIETY giving free memberships to some
« on: July 05, 2007, 07:50:10 PM »
In the past we have discussed how many actual members were in some of the ODG groups with different guesses.   well one has 400 freebies (guestimate)...no dues/or initiation....
Today a golf pro showed me a letter and a certificate(suitable for framing)that he had received unrequested.  Fortunately it was not his intention to justify such and he saw thru it....however is it fair to members that are paying intitation fees and dues to these groups to find that golf pros (and maybe others I dont know) of courses designed by this particular ODG are going free...NO initiation or dues....

Letter says something like this....
" The ODG Society" exist to ASSIST golf clubs that seek to preserve the architectural values exemplified by "particular ODG....."  
"as an honaorary member you are exempt from initiation fee and annual dues.  We hope you proudly display the certificate of membership.....enclosed are copies of our membership brochure for those club members you think might have an interest in our society....

THIS IS NOT A SANCTIONING BODY FOR ThIS PARTICULAR ODG.  I think the PGA recognizes such....

As golf goes thru some of the hard times it is now seeing ..many groups use fake(non requested) memberships.....for instance our club had no idea it was a member of NGCOA...... but if your club purchases/leases ClubCAR cars then your dues have been paid and you are lsited as a member(unknowingly)....and in many cases these are clubs that are not "owner" clubs.....just another way to say you have 5000 members....

Sorry for the rant.....but as long as these groups mention ASSIST and act as though they carry some credibility other than social.....I will bitch.....BTW most of these groups don't act in such a manner...
« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 07:55:35 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:OLD DEAD GUY SOCIETY giving free memberships to some
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2007, 08:06:31 PM »
You seem to have a thing about "sanctioning bodies."

I am a little curious about that, since I can't figure out a reason why there would be one, or anyone would think there would be one, either ASGCA for current archies, or ODG societies for the  ODG's.

What exactly is there to "sanction?"
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Dan Herrmann

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Re:OLD DEAD GUY SOCIETY giving free memberships to some
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2007, 09:20:29 PM »
What if my club's course was designed by a young, living guy?

Phil_the_Author

Re:OLD DEAD GUY SOCIETY giving free memberships to some
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2007, 10:16:06 PM »
Jeff,

You asked, "What exactly is there to 'sanction?'"

As you might be aware of, I am on the Board of the Tillinghast Association, and we have received more than a few letters of inquiry from clubs inquiring about our sanctioning their course as a Tillinghast.

I actually mentioned this in a past topic here on GCA and received a number of comments from members here taking me to task and asking why we don't sanction and others as to why we do. The issue was brought up by a club that was advertising itself as a "Tillinghast Design" even though only 9 of it's 18 holes were.

We took the stand that it is NOT up to us to certify in any way the veracity of a club's claim to whether they consider themselves an original "Tillinghast Design" golf course or not.

We strongly believe that an Association honoring Tilly or any other of the old great dead guys has only of as much credibility and value as an association as they are willing to give back.

Right now there are more than 750 members of the Tillinghast Association. We do not charge dues. We charge a one-time initiation fee of $90 that gives you lifetime membership. In addition you receive copies of the three volumes of Tilly's writings compiled by Rick & Stu Wolffe and Bob Trebus.

We also are making a very concerted effort in setting an example of what associations such as ours should do - educate any and all about the old dead guy we admire.

That is why we turned the Tillinghast Association website into a virtual research center. Much of Tilly's writings are now up as well as photographs, course descriptions, documents, letters, and much, much more.

We want to provide any and all, no matter where they may live, an opportunity to learn about his work, principles and person whether it be for scholarly research or a mere pleasurable read.

We charge nothing for this and, in fact, did the website upgrade through a one-time approach for contributions to the existing membership. The response was overwhelming and the support wonderful.

We also are contacted weekly by clubs seeking information about the work that Tilly did &/or recommended to them, reports he may have written and drawings that he had done, for the hundreds of clubs that he visited during his two-plus year PGA Course Consultation Tour.

We gladly give freely of our time in providing information of this type and performing research for these clubs and encourage others to approach if they have questions as well.

It is most important that research on and information about the work of the "Dead Guys" be gathered now. Most of them did work nearly 100 years ago and more and this information is too quickly being lost to posterity.

Architectural Associations should take the lead in compiling this for themselves, their memberships and all others who would like to learn. They should also make it available to the USGA, PGA of America, World Golf Hall of Fame and other archives so that all who love the game may have access to the records that will enable them to learn.

An earlier thread asked what the ASGCA could do for young architects. Their support of initiatives such as this, the USGA's Museum Committee's new effort to prepare coure evolution histories and others to come, and informing their membership and those interested in being members of them, would be a good start.

What architect alive today wouldn't have loved to spend a year or two or more working with and learning from a Tillinghast, a Flynn, a Ross, Mcdonald, Mckenzie, etc...?

By making this information available, we at the Tillinghast association are trying to do our part to help and we hope that others follow.

Sorry for the length of this fellows, but some of the Old Dead Guys are worth studying and remembering, especially doing it the right way.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:OLD DEAD GUY SOCIETY giving free memberships to some
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2007, 10:17:23 PM »
You seem to have a thing about "sanctioning bodies."

I am a little curious about that, since I can't figure out a reason why there would be one, or anyone would think there would be one, either ASGCA for current archies, or ODG societies for the  ODG's.

What exactly is there to "sanction?"

Jeff,
No..not really..just have a thing with the perception that something is sanctioning.....one of the meanings is :"Permission granted by a governing body".......  Something like ASGCA doesn't bother me nearly as much as one of the ODG groups.....we even had a group at our club that thought they needed to get permission from DRS to place a statue of DR in front of the clubhouse...fortunately the club did not allow such.....
But just imagine if one of the ODG groups got the PGA pros at the ODG courses signing up members.....propoganda would exponentiate....the type of guys that would sign up at our club would know more about the ODG guy in a month than some architect could know in a lifetime.....Hey I got no problem with fan clubs.....just don't give them credibility......and my hunch is you know I am right but you are trying to mess my mind up.....more.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

John Kavanaugh

Re:OLD DEAD GUY SOCIETY giving free memberships to some
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2007, 10:51:06 PM »
I am a member of the Seth Raynor Society. Any questions?

Mike_Young

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Re:OLD DEAD GUY SOCIETY giving free memberships to some
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2007, 10:56:10 PM »
Phillip,
You guys did a great job with that website.....as you know this was not your group.....

John,
The Seth Raynor society is fortunate.....
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:OLD DEAD GUY SOCIETY giving free memberships to some
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2007, 04:40:30 AM »
I am a member of the Seth Raynor Society. Any questions?

Yes John.....how did Seth propose that clubs maintain the steeper slopes he typically designed in many of his green complexes?

Obviously the relatively light weight fly mows weren't around.

Anything reel like would have been awkward.....do you think he just sycle/scythed them, or maybe just let them grow long hoping the balls would not hang up and they would release through the slope?.....and maybe only cut them seasonally?

Let me thank you in advance for your response, sincerely,

p ;)ul


....and Mike, good response to that Brauer chap....I think your hunch is right on.

....and you too Phillip....your post has definately spurred my interest in your group.

.....and everyone else out there....go to work today with a smile and have a fine day.

« Last Edit: July 06, 2007, 04:48:00 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re:OLD DEAD GUY SOCIETY giving free memberships to some
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2007, 06:50:07 AM »
"Yes John.....how did Seth propose that clubs maintain the steeper slopes he typically designed in many of his green complexes?
Obviously the relatively light weight fly mows weren't around.
Anything reel like would have been awkward.....do you think he just sycle/scythed them, or maybe just let them grow long hoping the balls would not hang up and they would release through the slope?.....and maybe only cut them seasonally?
Let me thank you in advance for your response, sincerely,"


Paul:

These are all important questions.

As you may suspect, I'm all for these "renaissance" people and their associations but to tell you the truth I'm not going to consider them to be a total success until they can figure out a way to RESTORE 25 cents an hour maintenance labor!!  ;)

What the hell happened to the old "chain gangs"  on the roadsides of the Southern states, Paul?

Do you think the state pens would let golf course maintenance departments use them a couple of weeks a month for the inflated wage of 27 cents an hour?

What the hell are those reprobates doing for us anyway but sitting in small cells costing the state taxpayers a bunch of money. What are they doing in there? Nothing at all except constantly trying to figure out how to break out.

How about school detention programs? I say let the little no-neck monsters work off their demerits clipping vertical Raynor bunker faces.

If your kid comes home an hour after curfew without a really good excuse, I say he or she shouldn't even be asked what was going on-----they should just be sent over to the nearest golf course the next day for a day of manual labor on grass faced bunkers. And if they try to use their cell phones, even for text messaging, their work time automatically doubles.

Holy Smokes, I bet Paris Hilton could knock out a trim on all the grass faces at GMGC for the time she owes the judge. Why should they make her stay in some small cell for 45 days where she gets claustrophobia, severe depression, practically drowns in her own tears and such? There's nothing remotely positive or constructive about that. Matter of fact, I bet she could get into it and even get a nice tan in the process, not one of those phony Hollywood rub-on cream tans. It might even be rehabilitative and if she does a half decent job I'd even offer to take her over to the King of Prussia Mall for 15 minutes of power shopping as a reward when it's all over. I'll even take it a step further and offer her the opportunity to do a little creative thinking---eg if she wants to forego her shower I'll let her power shop for 25 minutes!
« Last Edit: July 06, 2007, 07:14:55 AM by TEPaul »

Ted Kramer

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Re:OLD DEAD GUY SOCIETY giving free memberships to some
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2007, 08:08:34 AM »

. . .

Holy Smokes, I bet Paris Hilton could knock out a trim on all the grass faces at GMGC for the time she owes the judge. Why should they make her stay in some small cell for 45 days where she gets claustrophobia, severe depression, practically drowns in her own tears and such? There's nothing remotely positive or constructive about that. Matter of fact, I bet she could get into it and even get a nice tan in the process, not one of those phony Hollywood rub-on cream tans. It might even be rehabilitative and if she does a half decent job I'd even offer to take her over to the King of Prussia Mall for 15 minutes of power shopping as a reward when it's all over. I'll even take it a step further and offer her the opportunity to do a little creative thinking---eg if she wants to forego her shower I'll let her power shop for 25 minutes!


Nicely done Tom, very nicely done.

-Ted

Mike_Young

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Re:OLD DEAD GUY SOCIETY giving free memberships to some
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2007, 08:34:13 AM »
"
What the hell happened to the old "chain gangs"  on the roadsides of the Southern states, Paul?

Do you think the state pens would let golf course maintenance departments use them a couple of weeks a month for the inflated wage of 27 cents an hour? "

Tom,
We still have a few golf courses using prison labor.....
You just need to be REEEL careful when you come thru here....especially if they find out you know how to flymow....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bill_McBride

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Re:OLD DEAD GUY SOCIETY giving free memberships to some
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2007, 10:29:16 AM »
We still have a few golf courses using prison labor.....
You just need to be REEEL careful when you come thru here....especially if they find out you know how to flymow....

 ;D ;D  Good one, Mike!

I have played the Eglin AFB courses several times - the old course was designed by one of the ODGs - can't remember who.  A couple of years ago I was playing there and noticed a bunch of workers who didn't look like the typical golf course workers around here (hint: mostly middle-aged white guys).

Turns out they were from Club Fed, the minimum security, white collar prison that's on the Eglin AFB reservation.  Cheap labor!

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:OLD DEAD GUY SOCIETY giving free memberships to some
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2007, 07:17:30 AM »
We still have a few golf courses using prison labor.....
You just need to be REEEL careful when you come thru here....especially if they find out you know how to flymow....

 ;D ;D  Good one, Mike!

I have played the Eglin AFB courses several times - the old course was designed by one of the ODGs - can't remember who.  A couple of years ago I was playing there and noticed a bunch of workers who didn't look like the typical golf course workers around here (hint: mostly middle-aged white guys).

Turns out they were from Club Fed, the minimum security, white collar prison that's on the Eglin AFB reservation.  Cheap labor!
Bill,
60 minutes did a special on Eglin and the white collar labor at the golf course there a few years back....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Dan Moore

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Re:OLD DEAD GUY SOCIETY giving free memberships to some
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2007, 11:09:33 AM »
We still have a few golf courses using prison labor.....
You just need to be REEEL careful when you come thru here....especially if they find out you know how to flymow....

 ;D ;D  Good one, Mike!

I have played the Eglin AFB courses several times - the old course was designed by one of the ODGs - can't remember who.  A couple of years ago I was playing there and noticed a bunch of workers who didn't look like the typical golf course workers around here (hint: mostly middle-aged white guys).

Turns out they were from Club Fed, the minimum security, white collar prison that's on the Eglin AFB reservation.  Cheap labor!

Bill,

Langford Moreau designed one of the Eglin Courses.  
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Jim_Kennedy

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Re:OLD DEAD GUY SOCIETY giving free memberships to some
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2007, 05:52:52 PM »
Mike,
Hand scythes were part of the suggested equipment list for a golf course, as found in the 1923 edition of the USGA's Green Section magazine.

http://turf.lib.msu.edu/1920s/1923/2307191.pdf

I think most golfers find it preferable to have their ball come to rest in the bottom of a bunker, rather than face the predicament that Loren Roberts was just in, i.e., ball stuck and completely buried in the soft face of a mightily flashed bunker.

.....but, variety is the spice of life.

 ;D

p.s. they don't really like the relief options of a plug in the bunker vs. an unplayable on the grass bank, either. so there  :P
« Last Edit: July 07, 2007, 07:02:41 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Chris Cupit

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Re:OLD DEAD GUY SOCIETY giving free memberships to some
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2007, 11:31:18 AM »
Mike,

I hear you and think "free memberships" are a little iffy for any type of club or society.  I know why groups do it--it inflates their numbers and makes them look bigger, badder, whatever.

But it does seem to me that the people that make up the rosters of these societies are very passionate and have overwhelmingly good intentions as to the preservation of work they see as important to keep a hold of.  Why would the rank and file membership allow their leadership to give away something that I would think many members have a genuine sense of pride in?

I'd love to know which societies give away memberships like you mention.  I would guess that would be a small number ??? ???  I am guessing you have some idea but I'd be curious to hear from maybe some of the people in these ODG groups that may know firsthand--unless of course you're a closet member of a bunch of these groups ;D

I really don't know but would be curious to find out.  

Phil_the_Author

Re:OLD DEAD GUY SOCIETY giving free memberships to some
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2007, 03:15:25 PM »
Chris,

Speaking on behalf of the Tillinghast Association, we do not give away or award any memberships for free.

As I wrote earlier in this thread, "Right now there are more than 750 members of the Tillinghast Association. We do not charge dues. We charge a one-time initiation fee of $90 that gives you lifetime membership. In addition you receive copies of the three volumes of Tilly's writings compiled by Rick & Stu Wolffe and Bob Trebus..."

By the way, the three books alone are worth the initiation price for membership.

www.tillinghast.net for info on how to join or email me here.

Chris Cupit

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Re:OLD DEAD GUY SOCIETY giving free memberships to some
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2007, 03:38:26 PM »
Phillip,

Nice web site!  I have the Course Beautiful and Baltusrol the first 100 years and have enjoyed them both.

I'd never played a Tillinghast until I played at Winged Foot--quite an indoctrination!  

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