[Mike Hendren]

I read that 900 existing members at Reynolds Plantation paid an additional 20K for playing privileges at Creek Club. No resort play is permitted.

I wonder what the surcharge will be for membership in Tiger's course there.

Mike

[Kirk Gill]

I too am in the same category as Wayne and David. This just isn't my type of golf architecture. It's also proof that someone can design something completely ridiculous and people--clueless people (clueless in the theories of nature and golf architecture) will love it.

Mr. Naccarato - why is it that you can't express an opinion without denigrating everyone who might disagree with you? I haven't played the course, and neither have you. Are you truly a fan and aficianado of golf course architecture, or are you just a bully?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Another satisfied customer from the Land of Engh.

I saw enough while in Georgia to know that it isn't my kind of golf architecture and I was amazed to find out how many felt that it may be the best course in Georgia next to a certain private club about 100 miles away. (Actually the two best courses--MODERN COURSES I saw, which could stand on their own two feet with most in their class are 5 minutes and 15 minutes down the road. Cuscowilla and Long Shadow)  

You know, I didn't agree with my late dear friend Desmond Muirhead's later architecture either. It still didn't mean I couldn't count on him to learn from him, be entertained by him and enjoy his friendship.

Daryl, Apologies!

2008 Golf Digest Best New Private

[John Kirk]

You gotta love that 9th green.  The gentleman putting up the slope...that looks like fun to me.  Hit it hard!

[TaylorA]

By the way, anybody looking for the full resolution images can visit the set here:

http://flickr.com/photos/8031229@N02/sets/72157600603741121/

To view the full resolution picture, click on the desired image, click "all sizes" above the photo and click "original".

[Andy Troeger]

Tommy,
I find no issue with most of your comments, different strokes for different folks. With all the styles of GCA out there now, there's certainly room for everyone to have different preferences. I think its good to have all of them, as there's a better chance of finding something for everyone.

I do think your "clueless" comment was a bit unnecessary, but from my POV I've been called worse  

I couldn't tell from your second post whether you'd had the chance to walk and/or play the Creek Club, or were just in the area?

[David Wigler]

Being a part time GCA'er and a frequent visitor to Reynolds back in the day but not having gone in the last three years, I was not familiar with LongShadow, so I looked it up on line.  The website is really neat but I think it may be stretching just a bit.  I quote:

"In large measure, the popularity which the game of golf will enjoy in the future depends on the quality of the courses we provide for the players of the future."
Robert Tyre "Bobby" Jones, Jr.
in his foreword to The Spirit of St. Andrews, written in 1933 by Alister Mackenzie.

With those words, penned some 70 years ago, Georgia's greatest golfer looked into the future of the game and foreshadowed the rich heritage golf would develop in the state. At the time of his writing, the game was already deeply rooted into Georgia's history. The Savannah Golf Club, one North America's earliest clubs, was chartered in October of 1795, as evidenced by news items and announcements posted in the Georgia Gazette - less than 30 years after the Royal & Ancient Golf Club of St. Andrews was founded in Scotland. During the next two decades, Jones, himself, would be involved in the conception and creation of two clubs that would indelibly mark the history of the game (the Augusta National Golf Club and Peachtree) and secure Georgia's renowned position in the golf world."

Now I realize that it is nice to tie into St. Andrews and Bobby Jones, but I did not realize that Jones was alive in 1795, and already building golf courses.  Perhaps Randolf Junah isn't the only fictional character to come out of the Georgia Soil.

Recently business has finally started taking me to Colorado, and I have had a chance to see a little of Engh's work.  I know Tommy will be shocked, but I think it is pretty cool.  The mounding did not fit my eye in these pictures but I am anxious to see it in the ground.  Perhaps another trip to Reynolds is in order.

[Chris_Clouser]

This brings to mind the comment that I made on the Redland and Lakota Canyon reviews posted by Kalen a month or so ago.  I asked if Engh's style would translate well to other environments outside of the desert.  

Well after seeing those photos I'm pretty sure the answer would be no.  Granted, I have not seen the course in person, but those photos do not give me the feeling that I would want to play the course.  

I also know this.  I would hate to have to be the guy that mows those greens.  They are huge!!!

[Chris Cupit]

Though Tommy and I have disagreed often I think I understand what he was trying to say by using "clueless" and while it might not have been the most diplomatic word I think I agree with what he was trying to say.

It's not just that this is a style he (and I and presumabley others) might not like but it may represent the "overdoneness" that many see as a bad trend in golf architecture.  

And yet for potential homeowners looking for fabulous back yards (most homeowners will not belong or even play golf if industry trends are correct about who lives on golf courses) there can never be enough "wow" for their view.  The more humps, bumps, fountains and lakes the better

I applaud Engh for his bold, unique and different style.  I have not played but I have toured the entire course and I was struck at how something that was so unique to my eye for the first few holes, became actually monotonous by the end of the tour.  And, I think the three green 18th hole is about as gimmicky a finish as there is.

I think the Reynolds vision is a great one.  He has suceeded in making Greensboro, GA a golf destination and the properties are beautiful and in incredible condition.  I like having differrent archtiects each design a course although I am not sure the average person could name or differentiate the first courses.  They will have non problem picking the Engh course--that's for sure.  

This is a very well-heeled development that will have no problem mainataining these courses in world class condition.  I just hate for the "average Joe" to make the trip down there and come back to his perhaps nice but more modest home course and expect those same conditions.  I think there is a chance the Engh course will be more about the "wow" and the immaculate conditioning than any genuine architectural interest.  


 

[Forrest Richardson]

Nice to see the photos. I served as one of Jim's sponsors last year when he applied for ASGCA membership. We spoke about his work at Reynolds and it came though very clearly how much passion he had for his visits and design there.

I have rarely played a course at which I truly loved all of the holes. As Desmond Muirhead once remarked, "Not many people can get 18 holes in their head at one time..." I have recalled his comment many times. Even when golfers speak of a "course" they are not individually recalling all of the holes — 18 separate experiences. They are bundling the experience into one overall impression. This is how Reynolds (Engh) will be seen by golfers — as one experience with some holes "favorites" and some less enjoyed.

To me — from the photos — it looks interesting and unique. My guess is that golfers will enjoy the course and find it fun.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Forrest,
I'm glad we share the same feelings for Jim as a person and I'm surprised to see him wanting to join the ASGCA. You can't find a much nicer, more passionate guy when it comes to the profession. Jim is a solid player, great family man and fun conversationalist.

From what I saw at the Creek Club, as well as what I've seen in many pictures, the course is like caught in the inner circle of an oblivion of repetition. It looks like it belongs on one of those arcane cartoon calenders of the world's hardest golf holes. It doesn't effortlessly blend with it's surroundings nor does it take advantage of them either. It doesn't look like it pulled one natural feature which to build on, and I'm not talking just hillsides. I'm talking about how most of the course looks like it was built to be one wooley mammoth of a containment basin.

From a professional standpoint, what about the maintenance of this course? Is it going to set a new standard in the industry for Flymo sales and repairs? (Maybe Flymo should take notice and setup World H.Q. here.)

Do you think that this type of architecture will work in red clay soils?

Surely there has to be some negative, no?  I'll even give you a positive: A nice wonderful piece of property in a place of incredible scale--Reynold's Plantation. I also hear from a golf cart that the views are incredible.

Gotta run now, this movie about The Nortorious Bettie Page is on and I like Gretchen Mol, whose playing her part. She's as natural as a women you could get! No catch basin's about her!

[Forrest Richardson]

Tommy — I am not certain the course was intended to "effortlessly blend with it's surroundings." I have not been there, so my comments are general. Funny thing about containment basins: They are a throw-back to the days when courses were only built upon sandy linksland. While it takes "heroics" to build such courses today (basins, earthmoving, etc.), it might be seen as — at least — a return to the time  of the dips and hollows of linksy soils.

You asked, "From a professional standpoint, what about the maintenance of this course? Is it going to set a new standard in the industry for Flymo sales and repairs?" A lot of courses use Flymos. If good ol' Seth were alive today I think he would hold the keys to the dealership!

I think it unfair to pass judgement (wholly) until you have been there. Maybe you might surprise Jim, GCA and yourself!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Forrest, I have been there and seen it in person.

As far as Seth, how did they maintain those shapes during the old days, before the invention of the Flymo?

Honestly, I don't think I've ever seen a course with more Flymo-able areas in my lifetime, and I've seen a fair amount of Seth Raynor and C.B. MacDonald to qualify that. It doesn't even really come close.

What about the repetition? I think it sets a whole new standard in a Bendelowian kind of way to the tune of 18 punch bowls on a Sunday afternoon.....

[Forrest Richardson]

I worked for Bendelowian, but only for a summer while I went to college. His wife used to make homemade cottage cheese, which I detested a lot. I was not aware you visited Reynolds. I hope to go one day and spend my time counting catch basins...I find it so moving and productive during my golfing hours.  

[Andy Troeger]

Interesting that you brought up Raynor/MacDonald. I'd been wondering lately if Engh would be considered in a similar light a few generations down the road. His style doesn't have the template names yet, however they do tend to repeat from course to course and certainly is very recognizable. Whether people consider that good and whether his courses will stand the test of time will be the major questions.

By the way, in case anyone is completely insulted by that comparison...I've never played a Raynor or MacDonald course, so I'm pretty well thinking out loud here    Take it for what its worth!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Cottage Cheese?

Oh, your talking about the Rees Jones course across the street from the Creek Club.......

As far as counting catch basins, I think you might be better off counting rolls of aluminum foil.

Where's my poster?

[Sean_A]

Well-done review and nice photos. We'll see what Sean Arble has to say about that ninth green. I think it looks like great fun (not that I'd deliberately hit to the wrong side of the hump).

Brent

I don't mind the 9th green at all - while not terribly efficient designwise, it is still whimsical and golf needs a bit of whimsy.  I have much bigger issues with the bunkering in the fairway.  Like a few others mentioned previously, it looks like Engh went out of his way to make the shaping of the course at odds with the surrounding area.  It doesn't suit my eye very much, but the course still has a certain appeal.  I wouldn't mind playing it mainly because the property looks to be excellent for golf, not so different from Long Shadow, but I very much prefer the look there.  The one hole that does look cool to me is #14.  Engh seems to have toned it down a bit for this baby.  

I must say that looking at all these pics of Engh's courses is creating a bit of doubt in me about how Carne will turn out.  Folks have not paid much attention to the existing Hackett course or the ongoing work of Engh's new 9 holes.  Carne is a very special course and comfortably one of the very best in GB&I and for y money the best in Ireland.  Despite Carne's steady climb up the ranking tables the new 9 can really make or break Carne commercially.  Bringing in Engh is a big risk on the part of the locals, but then the entire project was a big risk.  I hope Engh has the good sense to control himself and build nine holes which is completely in sinc with the existing 18.  I will get my opportunity to see it first hand next year.  

Ciao

[Forrest Richardson]

Tommy — I suspect that the crews in Seth's day-and-age used Scythes. That is what Jack Snyder had his men use at Oakmont to cut shaggy grass along bunkers and hard to get areas. Flymos were not invented yet.

[Kalen Braley]

Just a few observations on Enghs styles.

I too love the quirkiness he puts into his holes, including the big green on #9.  He did something similar on the 5th hole at RM.  #14 at RM is very quirky and I really liked it alot, even though many might not like it.

I recently went back and re-read his interview.  He mentions his personal style of bunkering and prides himself on being unique in the business.

As to his courses on a whole, whether you think they are repetitive, over the top, or artifical, he mentions something near the end of his interview which I agree with 100%...they are alot of fun to play.

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