[Garland Bayley]

Look at what threads like this have done to an innocent kid like Jordan.  Don't forget that this is the exact word that drove Moran from the site.

John,

You must be on your medication today. You go from Trevino is a jerk one day to all GCAs are good and competent and no one builds mediocre golf courses another day.

[Chris Cupit]

My theories:

1.  Poor sites
2.  Housing
3.  Business v. Profession
4.  Golfers could care less
5.  Architect Incompetence
6.  Architect Indifference
7.  Architect Lack of Pride
8.  Architect Laziness
9.  Architect Ignorance

Then again, I live in a tract mansion.

Mike

I'll pick #4.  For  99% of golfers they don't look past the fountains in the lakes or the "mounding" on the cart girl

[John Kavanaugh]

Chris,

Using the standards of this and many threads I am afraid the course you represent would also be considered mediocre.  I base this just on visiting your website and the lack of suck up posts I see by people trying to win your favor.  How can you defend either your course or the critical mentality of the pundits.

[Garland Bayley]

... There are no incompetent road builders still in business...we provide a performance bond worth the value of the project to ensure satisfactory completion.
...

Seems there was a recent road project called "The Big Dig". As I recall there have been some problems with stories of inspectors looking the other way, contractor short cuts, major defects, and huge cost overruns.

[John Goodman]

Ross Bridge is not a value, and not "special," and there is some repetitiveness to the feel and playing characteristics of the holes, but I think it worth playing, and not mediocre as I define that term.  It's not of the caliber of many of the new courses praised on this site - at least not for me - but I  know numerous golfers who like it a great deal.

I don't think it will do to just dismiss Joe Sixpack's preferences.  I played recently up at Pinehurst with some non-GCA friends; we played 2, 4, 6 and 8, plus Pine Needles and Tobacco Road.  Both guys I was with clearly thought much of the Road was over the top, self-indulgent and "tricked up" (though they did not use those words to me since I was responsible for the itinerary).  I don't buy into that assessment myself, but there is some truth in it.  

[Kalen Braley]

Here is the definition:

1. of only ordinary or moderate quality; neither good nor bad; barely adequate.  

Here is the problem:

How does one define quality??  Quality to one is trash to another.  McDonalds is a fast food phenomen with people spending billions there annually.  Even though I view the product as very low quality, most other don't and so they consume.  Its all relative.

For you bay area boys, if you play courses like Cypress, Spylgass, Pebble, Pasatiempo, etc, day in and day out, then you make think a course like Cinnabar Hills is Medicore and barely adequate.  But if you usually play shoddy, ragtag munis with flat greens, soggy fairways, and no bunkers, then playing Cinnabar Hills would seem to be a nice, very well done and exceptional course.

Whether or not one views a course as "Mired in mediocrity" or not, in large part depends on thier viewpoint.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen:

Great point on the overall, but perhaps bad choice of specifics.  Cinnabar Hills is a pretty damn good golf course; Rich Goodale has even stated on here he thinks it's better than Pasatiempo.  My feeling is that one would have to be a Cypress Point member to call that course mediocre.

I get what you're saying though - perspective is very important.

Hey wait a second... my home course is a ragtag muni... maybe I just proved your point?


TH

[Garland Bayley]

...But if you usually play shoddy, ragtag munis with flat greens, soggy fairways, and no bunkers, ...

Interestingly, I don't think I have ever seen such a course. Where does one find one?

[Tom Huckaby]

The no bunkers part will be hard to find... but re all the rest, come to California my friend.  I'll show you a few.  They still can be fun, but they do put things in perspective.

Which was Kalen's point, methinks.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen:

Great point on the overall, but perhaps bad choice of specifics.  Cinnabar Hills is a pretty damn good golf course; Rich Goodale has even stated on here he thinks it's better than Pasatiempo.  My feeling is that one would have to be a Cypress Point member to call that course mediocre.

I get what you're saying though - perspective is very important.

Hey wait a second... my home course is a ragtag muni... maybe I just proved your point?

TH

Amen huck,  case in point!!

I'll play just about anywhere, but the thought of playing Santa Teresa makes me have to invoke my standards rule..  

Perhaps Cinnabar Hills is a little too good....would Freddies course San Juan Oaks, have been a better analogy?  

[Kalen Braley]

The no bunkers part will be hard to find... but re all the rest, come to California my friend.  I'll show you a few.  They still can be fun, but they do put things in perspective.

Which was Kalen's point, methinks.

Correct, no bunkers was a bit harsh, I should have said courses with no fairway bunkers and greenside bunkers that are round and about 6 inches deep with no lip.  I'm sure you're getting the visual image now...

[Tom Huckaby]

San Juan Oaks would have been a better use there - good call.

As for my beloved Santa Teresa, it's actually in VERY good shape these days.  Greens are incredible.  I marvel every time there at how great they keep them given MASSIVE amounts of play by mostly clueless golfers.  The super there is a freakin' genius.

But I do digress....

 

[Kalen Braley]

San Juan Oaks would have been a better use there - good call.

As for my beloved Santa Teresa, it's actually in VERY good shape these days.  Greens are incredible.  I marvel every time there at how great they keep them given MASSIVE amounts of play by mostly clueless golfers.  The super there is a freakin' genius.

But I do digress....

 

Either they are really putting in some work there, or you have officially "rationalized and closed your eyes" such that you've gone off the deep end.  

But yes, while the bay area does have some exceptional private and high end courses, most of the muni stuff ranges from ho-hum to a play once and never again.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen:

I am neither rationalizing nor off the deep end.

All 18 greens were re-done in the last five years, and they've just gotten better and better since each were first opened.  I am not kidding... Santa Teresa now has better greens than damn near any private club around.  And I mean that in terms of contour, shape and conditions.  They truly are very, very good.  When were you last there?

I do concur about the state of our munis in general, though.

TH

[George Pazin]

I'll pick #4.  For  99% of golfers they don't look past the fountains in the lakes or the "mounding" on the cart girl

This is kind of what I meant about underestimating Joe Six Pack.

Just because Joe may be forced to settle for less - and appreciate the cart girl - doesn't mean he doesn't care.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen:

I am neither rationalizing nor off the deep end.

All 18 greens were re-done in the last five years, and they've just gotten better and better since each were first opened.  I am not kidding... Santa Teresa now has better greens than damn near any private club around.  And I mean that in terms of contour, shape and conditions.  They truly are very, very good.  When were you last there?

I do concur about the state of our munis in general, though.

TH

Wow talk about accessing the old memory banks.  That would have been in 97 or 98.  Unfortunately the course was closer to the "play once" category.  

But the reality was, because I was living in Hayward at the time, it wasn't worth it to drive all the way down there.  There were plenty of others in the same category much closer.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen - then you haven't seen the new greens.  They really are very very good.

That being said, it's still not worth the drive from Hayward, because the new greens if anything make pace of play WORSE.  My beloved ST is still the home of the 6 hour "fast" round.  That is, if you finish in six hours, you consider it fast.

 

Now if you could catch it on an uncrowded day... and get some evil pins... well... it's worth playing and re-playing for sure.

Just fat chance of finding an uncrowded day.  Such things do not exist.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen - then you haven't seen the new greens.  They really are very very good.

That being said, it's still not worth the drive from Hayward, because the new greens if anything make pace of play WORSE.  My beloved ST is still the home of the 6 hour "fast" round.  That is, if you finish in six hours, you consider it fast.

 

Now if you could catch it on an uncrowded day... and get some evil pins... well... it's worth playing and re-playing for sure.

Just fat chance of finding an uncrowded day.  Such things do not exist.

TH

I guess you've adequately proven your side of the story for us to reconsider your "off the deep end" status.

6 hour rounds does sound quite brutal.  For the last 7 years I've been living in Spokane and Utah where a 4.5 hr round is about as slow as I've experienced.  But alas when I get back around your parts we'll have to give it a go, because 6 hours on the course with a "shit-eating grinner" like yourself can't be all that bad right?  

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen:

Well... I can say I'd do my best to keep it fun.  And what's saddest about this is I am used to it... we played in 5.25 hours two weeks ago and I came off smiling and loving how "fast" it seemed.

That is sad.

[Garland Bayley]

I suspect the lousy courses as Kalen originally described them are about as rare as CPC and PB level courses.

[Tom Huckaby]

Garland:  no, not really.  I can think of several pretty close to me... more if you allow me to go further out....

Perhaps they're in better condition than we give them credit for... but in terms of design interest and fun shots to play, I think Kalen has them perfectly pegged.  It's pretty basic golf.  And they serve their purpose, don't get me wrong... But his point remains good.  If they are all one plays, then a course others look down on can look like heaven.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

I suspect the lousy courses as Kalen originally described them are about as rare as CPC and PB level courses.

Ha!!!

They far outwieght the CPC and PBs.....we'll setup a nor cal trip and tour of sorts.  I'll cover the North and East Bay courses, Huck will cover the South Bay and Penisula courses..

[Tom Huckaby]

The weird thing is such a trip would be pretty darn fun.  Or at least I think so.

But we wouldn't invite a CPC member, let's just say.... that is unless he has a VERY strong sense of humor.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

The weird thing is such a trip would be pretty darn fun.  Or at least I think so.

But we wouldn't invite a CPC member, let's just say.... that is unless he has a VERY strong sense of humor.

TH

Or perhaps invite one to come along to see how the "other half" lives...

[Tom Huckaby]

Oh, I'd assume he knows... and if not, has no reason to want to know... That's cool by me.

BTW, I may have a team match at Green Tree (Antioch) next week.  Waiting to see if I get selected for the team.  If so, I shall be emailing for tips.

 

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