[David Ober]

There was a reason we did not use #10 for starts however.  If you are aware of course routing you know #10 on both courses are a long ways from the club house-- We wanted to encourage players to walk (to cut down on cart traffic in the native roughs on MPCC), and shuttling to #10 and back from #9 was not deemed a good plan--

Thanks for the clarification and further explanation.  One more question, what factors are taken into consideration for the decision to encourage players to walk rather than just requiring walking?  I had heard last year that the CGA was worried about lawsuits, but can't you just allow carts for those that present medical reasons to get around that?  Again, just curious (though I greatly prefer carts to be disallowed for a number of reasons).

Shut up Andrew!!!!

[Dennis_Harwood]

Andrew- Since use of carts in the CGA run State far predates the US SupCt decision involving Casey Martin, I doubt the reason is legal (and, being an attorney, I have some expertise in this area).

Its just that its been traditionally done, and the additional factor (perhaps most important) the necessity to obtain courses, north and south, for qualifying events-

The Conditions of Competition should always be the same for the qualifying rounds as they exist for the finals.  Hence if you allow electronic yardage devices in the qualifiers, you allow them in the finals (one of the reasons we allowed them, contra USGA policy for their national events) is because many of the courses used for our qualifiers had GPS systems on their carts that were difficult to turn off)--

By the same token, many of the courses we use for qualifiers would not be available if we barred the potential revenue they receive from cart traffic.  We don't have quite the pull the USGA does in getting qualifying sites for National Championships (which in Calif are largely private courses for USGA qualifying, whereas we need some public access courses for CGA and NCGA and SCGA qualifying events)--

To keep the entry fees reasonable and attempt to secure the best courses possible you have to extend to the courses that hold these events the revenue stream possibilty (for most state qualifiers we do pay a per head green fee--which is often not true for the USGA events we conduct, which have the "no cart" restriction)--

We encourage walking in the finals, but if we permit it in the qualifiers, we are bound to allow it in the finals.

So I think it gets back to bottom line dollars, not legal issues.

More seriously, the CGA does appreciate the feed back you and other players provide re the event, its format and its venues.  We do listen to the players since they are the key to these events.

[David Ober]

Andrew- Since use of carts in the CGA run State far predates the US SupCt decision involving Casey Martin, I doubt the reason is legal (and, being an attorney, I have some expertise in this area).

Its just that its been traditionally done, and the additional factor (perhaps most important) the necessity to obtain courses, north and south, for qualifying events-

The Conditions of Competition should always be the same for the qualifying rounds as they exist for the finals.  Hence if you allow electronic yardage devices in the qualifiers, you allow them in the finals (one of the reasons we allowed them, contra USGA policy for their national events) is because many of the courses used for our qualifiers had GPS systems on their carts that were difficult to turn off)--

By the same token, many of the courses we use for qualifiers would not be available if we barred the potential revenue they receive from cart traffic.  We don't have quite the pull the USGA does in getting qualifying sites for National Championships (which in Calif are largely private courses for USGA qualifying, whereas we need some public access courses for CGA and NCGA and SCGA qualifying events)--

To keep the entry fees reasonable and attempt to secure the best courses possible you have to extend to the courses that hold these events the revenue stream possibilty (for most state qualifiers we do pay a per head green fee--which is often not true for the USGA events we conduct, which have the "no cart" restriction)--

We encourage walking in the finals, but if we permit it in the qualifiers, we are bound to allow it in the finals.

So I think it gets back to bottom line dollars, not legal issues.

More seriously, the CGA does appreciate the feed back you and other players provide re the event, its format and its venues.  We do listen to the players since they are the key to these events.

Well listen to this one: Keep Carts Legal!!!!  ;-)

David "300lber" Ober

[James Bennett]

Patrick Mucci

I am still looking for that data on green slopes and speeds.  I have done some filing, so I have to look harder.  

I'll be Bach to you again in 24 hours.

James B

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

If the readings are consistently the same across greens of varying speeds (or close enough for government work), then the notch becomes meaningless.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

The construction of the notch is such that it's calibrated to release the ball at precisely the same time/angle no matter where the golfer is.  Usually it's at about a 20 degree angle.

The reason that this is important is two fold.
1  consistency
2  The inclined plane will be at the same angle and the ball will
    be released at a precise launch angle, thus, the ball will
    attain uniform/universal speed as it rolls down the precisely
    measured ramp onto the green.

An early or late release point, vis a vis a misconstructed, mislocated or damaged notch on the stimp meter will provide inaccurate readings.[/color]  

Serious question: Are you a credentialed scientist, Patrick?

I majored in chemical engineering when I entered college.
Math and the sciences were always enjoyable.
Then I began to lean toward law and business.
And now, now I'm just TEPaul's legal guardian, and nothing in college prepared me for that task.   I'm about to have my fees tripled, but, I still don't think that's enough.[/color]

I'm off to NY, I'll be BACH

Patrick,

So let me see if I get this straight:

Are you telling me that if I devised a green speed measuring device that contained no notch

If it contained NO notch, you would not have a universal launching point and thus, none of your readings would be valid.

Gravity, which affects all things equally, determines the launch point and angle of the inclined plane at the precise moment of launch.

Without a precisely milled notch on an identically manufactured implement, that produces the same, universal launch point, angle and speed, your device would be useless.[/color]

(or a different kind of notch) that consistently delivered identical results to a USGA stimpmeter

That's a contradiction in terms.

You can't have a different notch producing the same results.[/color]

that you would reject its results because it didn't have the same notch configuration as a USGA stimpmeter ?

A different notch can't produce the same results.

A stimp meter is uniform in construction, that's what produces viable, reliable results.

You can't have implements with different characteristics, especially the notch, producing the same results.[/color]

More importantly, though, I'm interested in your response to Mr. Huntley's post about his conversation with the super at MPCC....

That's easy.

If the super used a legitimate stimp meter, I'd accept his results that the greens stimped at 13, provided that he stimped the actual greens and not the practice green.

However, I doubt that the super had an anemometer which accurately measured wind velocity.

I doubt that the combination of greens stimping at 13 - 13+, slope and 30 mph winds existed.

That combination would seem to make the golf course unplayable, and from what I understand, the tournament was successfully concluded without cessation of play due to the ball being unable to remain stable.[/color]

[Matt_Cohn]

Patrick,

Yes we do tend to exaggerate green speeds but not on this occasion. The greens really were 13.5-14, and the winds really were 20-30 mph. I'm not sure how it remained playable - I pondered that question as well - but the short answer is that somehow, it did. Sensible hole locations probably had something to do with it.

The practice green which David Ober stimped at 12+ was noticably slower than the greens on either course.

Pat,

I think we established already that our numbers are both honest and correct. I continue to share your wonderment at how the course remained playable, but the fact is that it did, and at exactly the wind and green speeds that we've discussed already.

Matt

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Cohn,

Accurate green speeds have been presented.

NO such data exists relative to the wind.

[Dennis_Harwood]

Matt Cohn,

Accurate green speeds have been presented.

NO such data exists relative to the wind.

Pat-- The SCGA site under the Rules Blog (scga.org) states the wind was 30+mph-- This was obtained from NCGA and MPCC staff, who are generally familiar with estimating such things in this area--

What would be the wind velocity to cause a metal flagstick to bend at a 40* from perpendicular like a fishing rod with a nomral flagstick attached?  I observed such for at least 15 mins (with 5 layers of foul weather gear on, until I froze to death and had to depart the scene)-- Balls were being blown off the green and we had to permit players to involk 20-3d--but they still got through the round.

As stated above, I have officiated in desert winds with gusts over 30 and high winds along the coast, but this was the very first time I seriously considered suspending play because of wind conditions (primarily because of its impact upon the 14th at the Dunes, the furthest hole on the point and most exposed)

[Matt_Cohn]

Pat,

Fair enough. I wouldn't vouch for constant 30 mph winds. But a range of 20-30 mph, as I mentioned earlier, is a shoo-in.

It may well have been more, but of that I'm uncertain.

[James Bennett]

I'd like to know the following

At what speeds and what slopes will a ball become unstable ?
At what speeds and at what velocities will a ball become unstable ?
At what slopes and what velocities will a ball become unstable ?

It would seem that knowing the answer to those questions would allow an architect to shape his greens, in a site specific manner, such that he could maximize the use of all three elements to form interesting and challenging greens.

Patrick

I recall some research that was probably referenced from this site which showed the green speeds and slopes at which a ball would 'start moving' through pure gravity.

Is that information of value to you?  If so, I will try and find my copy and the internet reference for it, and let you know.

James B

Eureka, I have found it.  The analysis was conducted by Arthur Weber of Old Westbury in New York.  Arthur was a member of the USGA (still is?).  The article on Green Speed Physics was published in the USGA Greens Record in March/April 1997.  They had a different view of what constituted a fast green then (medium to fast 8 to 12 feet)!

Happy reading Patrick.  Hope this helps.

James B

http://turf.lib.msu.edu/1990s/1997/970312.pdf

[Patrick_Mucci]

James Bennett,

Thanks.

That treatise answers the question I posed to the USGA many years ago when I questioned the influence of the slope and stimp in combination with one another.

It should be required reading for all golf associations.

Exhibit 11 indicates that at a stimp of 13 a ball will not stop rolling on a 4 degree surface.

I wish that the study continued and included stimps of 14 and 15, numbers that were virtually unimaginable 5 and 10 years ago, let alone 20 years ago.

Since a 4 degree slope produces a ball that will not stop at a stimp of 13, the missing element is the impact on sustained wind velocities on the ball in conjunction with slope and stimp.

For example, at a stimp of 11, 12 and 13, on a 0, 1, 2 and 3 degree slope, what affect would wind velocities of 10, 20 and 30 mph have upon the ball.

At a stimp of 13+, with 30 mph sustained winds, it would appear that minimal slopes would produce balls that won't stop.

Do you have the contact info for Arthur Weber ?

Thanks again

David Ober,

Good news, I found one of my stimps tonight.
I will look in other locations for the others over the next week.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Cohn,

Accurate green speeds have been presented.

NO such data exists relative to the wind.

Pat-- The SCGA site under the Rules Blog (scga.org) states the wind was 30+mph-- This was obtained from NCGA and MPCC staff, who are generally familiar with estimating such things in this area--

Estimating is not an accurate method of measuring wind.
Without an anemometer at ground level, the wind speeds guestimated at 30+ mph, are shots in the dark, at best.

Winds at 30+ mph, combined with stimps at 13 to 13+ with minor degrees of slope would produce unputtable conditions.

I don't know what the average or high wind speeds are at that site in June, but, preparing the golf course on the edge of unplayability doesn't seem prudent. [/color]

What would be the wind velocity to cause a metal flagstick to bend at a 40* from perpendicular like a fishing rod with a nomral flagstick attached?  

It depends on the flagstick and the flag.
What is its length, thickness, material, flag, etc., etc. ?
Flagsticks at some clubs are unbendable and 40 mph wouldn't have any impact on some.[/color]

I observed such for at least 15 mins (with 5 layers of foul weather gear on, until I froze to death and had to depart the scene)-- Balls were being blown off the green and we had to permit players to involk 20-3d--but they still got through the round.

But, at what price ?
It seems inequitable at best.

Your above remark would seem to prove my point, namely, that winds of 30 to 30+ mph, combined with stimps of 13 to 13+, on flat or sloped greens produces unplayable conditions.

Assuming for a second that I accepted your estimates as factual readings, I'd have to question the individual and collective wisdom of the parties involved.

MPCC is an ocean side site, typically subject to winds and strong winds.   Knowing that, why on earth would anyone prepare the greens at 13 to 13+ for a competiton ?[/color]

As stated above, I have officiated in desert winds with gusts over 30 and high winds along the coast, but this was the very first time I seriously considered suspending play because of wind conditions (primarily because of its impact upon the 14th at the Dunes, the furthest hole on the point and most exposed)

Gusts are unpredictable, but, sustained winds of 30+ mph would seem to dictate slower greens and a shorter course set up.

Can you imagine if the kind of setup that's been described at MPCC was employed when a PGA event was hosted there.  You'd have heard the howling on the East Coast[/color]

[Adam Clayman]

Are the greens on the new Shore Poa Annua?

If so, this could help understand how balls could've stayed at rest.

Sorry if this has been discussed already, but, isn't it necessary to have a flat spot/section to get an accurate Stimp reading?

[James Bennett]

Since a 4 degree slope produces a ball that will not stop at a stimp of 13, the missing element is the impact on sustained wind velocities on the ball in conjunction with slope and stimp.

For example, at a stimp of 11, 12 and 13, on a 0, 1, 2 and 3 degree slope, what affect would wind velocities of 10, 20 and 30 mph have upon the ball.

At a stimp of 13+, with 30 mph sustained winds, it would appear that minimal slopes would produce balls that won't stop.

Do you have the contact info for Arthur Weber ?

Thanks again

Patrick

glad the article is of use.  I noted the comments about Arthur Weber from the footnote of the article.  Given that he has been on the USGA Green Committee since 1984, I hope he was young when he started, so that he may still be alive today.  The article (from 1997) refers to Old Westbury Golf and Country Club.  It also says that Arthur was a past president of the Metropolitan Golf Association.

Perhaps Tom Paul knows/knew of Arthur.

Your comments on wind speed and green speed are interesting.  I'll have to think about the physics.

James B

[Matt_Cohn]

I just read about the Dogwood Invitational, a good amateur tournament near Atlanta.

"Webb Simpson was on his game all week, with greens at the Druid Hills Golf Club course rolling 13.7 on the stimpmeter. He started the roll with a course record 60 in the Wayne Reynolds Am-Am Tournament held on Tuesday. His tournament score of 19-under is the lowest since the course was renovated by Bob Cupp in 2003."

If anyone was there, it would be interesting to hear how 13.7 looked and played. How difficult are Druid Hills' greens?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Cohn,

Whenever I hear stimp readings I always wonder is that reading just in one direction or is it the average reading taken for the green/s by using both directions ?

I think it's an important distinction that needs clarification.

According to Arhur Weber's study, Exhibit 11, Figure 5, a stimp of 13.7 would produce unlimited roll on a slope of approximately 3 degrees.

I too am curious to hear from anyone familiar with those greens.  I'd be surprised if a few greens didn't have slopes/contours of 3 degrees or more.

To add a question to yours, it would seem that these increased speeds are bringing the courses closer and closer to the threshold of being unplayable, and I have to ask, how wise/fair is that to the competitors.

Officials who bring green speeds to the edge should have to putt on them for substantive sums of money... first.

I don't understand the joy of seeing competitors three or four putt from 2 feet, and, I don't see how it adds to the quality of the competition.

Perhaps someone can explain that to me.

[James Bennett]

Patrick

a few other interesting things from the Weber article, from figure 4.

At a green speed of 10 feet, a four degree slope will result in a four-fold increase in speed, ie a flat 10 foot putt will go 40 feet.  So, a downhill 10 foot putt on a four degree slope has to be hit at the same speed as a flat two feet six inches putt.

At a green speed of just over 12 feet, a three degree slope will result in a three fold increase in speed.  So, a downhill 9 foot putt has to be hit at the speed of a three foot putt.

At a green speed of thirteen feet and a two degree slope, the effective green speed doubles.  So, a downhill putt of 8 feet has to be hit at a flat 4 feet of speed.

Now, if only I could understand what a two/three/four degree slope green looks like, this would mean more to me.  However, it does show what a small downhill slope near the hole does on quick greens if you get above the hole.  A long downhill slope does it in spades!

These numbers also illuminate TE Paul's 'high beam' theory of firm, fast greens.

James B

[Patrick_Mucci]

James Bennett,

I think TEPaul's "high beam" theory makes a great deal of sense and stops the insanity of speed for speed's sake.

[David Ober]

Matt Cohn,

Whenever I hear stimp readings I always wonder is that reading just in one direction or is it the average reading taken for the green/s by using both directions ?

I think it's an important distinction that needs clarification.

According to Arhur Weber's study, Exhibit 11, Figure 5, a stimp of 13.7 would produce unlimited roll on a slope of approximately 3 degrees.

I too am curious to hear from anyone familiar with those greens.  I'd be surprised if a few greens didn't have slopes/contours of 3 degrees or more.

To add a question to yours, it would seem that these increased speeds are bringing the courses closer and closer to the threshold of being unplayable, and I have to ask, how wise/fair is that to the competitors.

Officials who bring green speeds to the edge should have to putt on them for substantive sums of money... first.

I don't understand the joy of seeing competitors three or four putt from 2 feet, and, I don't see how it adds to the quality of the competition.

Perhaps someone can explain that to me.

Pat,

I'm sure you can find some exceptions, but the vast majority of people who own a stimpmeter know how to use it.

It's really not that difficult.

[David Ober]

Are the greens on the new Shore Poa Annua?

If so, this could help understand how balls could've stayed at rest.

Sorry if this has been discussed already, but, isn't it necessary to have a flat spot/section to get an accurate Stimp reading?

The greens on both the Shore and the Dunes are a combination of bent and poa annua.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Ober,

It's not the people who own and use "official"   stimpmeters that I'm concerned about.  I question the third parties who report the alleged readings.

[David Ober]

David Ober,

It's not the people who own and use "official"   stimpmeters that I'm concerned about.  I question the third parties who report the alleged readings.

Touche! LOL!

[Mike Benham]

David Ober,

It's not the people who own and use "official"   stimpmeters that I'm concerned about.  I question the third parties who report the alleged readings.

Patrick - Can you provide a source for anyone interested in acquiring an USGA approved ananometer?    

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Ober,

It's not the people who own and use "official"   stimpmeters that I'm concerned about.  I question the third parties who report the alleged readings.

Patrick - Can you provide a source for anyone interested in acquiring an USGA approved ananometer?    

Mike,

I'm trying to remember where I acquired mine.

I'd start with the USGA.

If that fails, I'd imagine that your superintendent could help you, if he was so inclined, or liked to play Russian Roulette.  

If I was a Superintendent I don't know that I'd be anxious to assist in having members acquire devices that could only cause problems and perhaps my early demise.

David Ober,

I'm going to continue my search over the next few days.

[Doug Siebert]

Patrick

a few other interesting things from the Weber article, from figure 4.

At a green speed of 10 feet, a four degree slope will result in a four-fold increase in speed, ie a flat 10 foot putt will go 40 feet.  So, a downhill 10 foot putt on a four degree slope has to be hit at the same speed as a flat two feet six inches putt.

At a green speed of just over 12 feet, a three degree slope will result in a three fold increase in speed.  So, a downhill 9 foot putt has to be hit at the speed of a three foot putt.

At a green speed of thirteen feet and a two degree slope, the effective green speed doubles.  So, a downhill putt of 8 feet has to be hit at a flat 4 feet of speed.

Now, if only I could understand what a two/three/four degree slope green looks like, this would mean more to me.  However, it does show what a small downhill slope near the hole does on quick greens if you get above the hole.  A long downhill slope does it in spades!

These numbers also illuminate TE Paul's 'high beam' theory of firm, fast greens.

James B

A few years ago I bought something called a "Breakmaster" which when laid flat on a green or other surface will tell you the slope and what direction it is.  I didn't get it for use when playing to help me read greens of course, but just to shut up a couple friends I have who insist "that putt broke uphill" when they miss one a bit too often.  Now that they know not to make that claim around me anymore (well, one moved away but I'm pretty sure it didn't have anything to do with me buying the Breakmaster ) it sits in my bag relatively unused.

I think I have a use for it now that, it would be interesting to check the behavior of the ball on certain slopes and see what the actual slope really is.  There are some slopes on my home course's greens where the ball will not stop once it is moving unless the greens are fairly slow.  I suppose I could sort of reverse engineer the stimp reading on those greens by finding a slope where the ball will just keep barely moving but won't stop and comparing it to that table of green speed versus slope for the areas marked "infinity".

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