[Jon Spaulding]

David; have you ever stimped any local courses under "normal" conditions....if so what were the highest readings and where?

Yes, I do it all the time. Most are in the 9-ish range. In SoCal, the main determining factor for green speeds seems to be temperature. The hotter it gets, the slower the greens are for the most part.

We just can't risk over-stressing the greens in the summer time, so very few inland courses get their greens running over 10.

In the winter, though, it can be a different story.

The fastest greens that I have stimped for every day play  are definitely the SCGA Golf Course. There was a period there about two years ago where the greens there were regularly 10.5 to 11.0 and I even saw them at 11.5 for normal play. But remember that the SCGA course hosts MANY tournaments and qualifiers, so it's always preparing for some tournament or other.

Another course that has consistently excellent and fast greens is Bear Creek in Murrieta. Their greens are usually 10 - 11 during the winter/spring/fall months and a bit slower in the summer, usually.

I would reckon that BC has some of the quickest; used to have a social membership there and the greens were always well kept. Of course a 10-11 reading with mid-80's Nicklaus makes for a long day unless one's ball striking is superb . SCGA is also well kept although I'm not the biggest fan of the layout.

I would be curious if you've tested Barona or LA North. The latter had the fastest I have seen anywhere on a "normal" day.

[Patrick_Mucci]

No, I wasn't there, but, a friend, John McClure was, and I'd consider him a reliable source, wouldn't you.[/color]

I do need to calibrate mine against a real stimpmeter,

Oh, so your stimpmeter isn't an "official" stimpmeter ?
It's a homemade replica ?
[/color]

because the USGA doesn't sell the real McCoy.

I have three (3) of the original or official green stimpmeters lying around somewhere.  Send me your address and I'll send you the real McCoy when I find it.  Just don't let it get stolen again.[/color]

My old one (that was stolen a year ago) was a different knock-off than the one I have now, and I calibrated it against a real one that a buddy has, and the readings were nearly identical.

Nearly identical ?[/color]

Unfortunately, his was also stolen, so now I need to find a local greenskeeper that will allow me to compare my new one with a real one.

Forget comparisons, I'll send you the real McCoy if you promise to take better care of it and guard it with your life.[/color]

I have little doubt that they will produce nearly identical readings, since that is the whole point of creating a knock-off, but you never know....

That's why I believe that 30 mph winds and 13+ on the stimp on any kind of slope may be mutually exclusive, causing the golf course to become unplayable.

Wind velocities are also difficult to gauge unless you have a reliable Anemometer.

But, you'll have to get a hand held Anemometer on your own, I can only afford so much in shipping charges.[/color]

I'll report back as soon as I have done a legitimate comparison.

As opposed to an illegitimate comparison ?

When I locate the stimps, which I hope my wife didn't toss out thinking they were green stakes, I'll send you the real McCoy.  Have a numerical code engraved on the bottom.
[/color]

[David Ober]

No, I wasn't there, but, a friend, John McClure was, and I'd consider him a reliable source, wouldn't you.[/color]

I do need to calibrate mine against a real stimpmeter,

Oh, so your stimpmeter isn't an "official" stimpmeter ?
It's a homemade replica ?
[/color]

because the USGA doesn't sell the real McCoy.

I have three (3) of the original or official green stimpmeters lying around somewhere.  Send me your address and I'll send you the real McCoy when I find it.  Just don't let it get stolen again.[/color]

My old one (that was stolen a year ago) was a different knock-off than the one I have now, and I calibrated it against a real one that a buddy has, and the readings were nearly identical.

Nearly identical ?[/color]

Unfortunately, his was also stolen, so now I need to find a local greenskeeper that will allow me to compare my new one with a real one.

Forget comparisons, I'll send you the real McCoy if you promise to take better care of it and guard it with your life.[/color]

I have little doubt that they will produce nearly identical readings, since that is the whole point of creating a knock-off, but you never know....

That's why I believe that 30 mph winds and 13+ on the stimp on any kind of slope may be mutually exclusive, causing the golf course to become unplayable.

Wind velocities are also difficult to gauge unless you have a reliable Anemometer.

But, you'll have to get a hand held Anemometer on your own, I can only afford so much in shipping charges.[/color]

I'll report back as soon as I have done a legitimate comparison.

As opposed to an illegitimate comparison ?

When I locate the stimps, which I hope my wife didn't toss out thinking they were green stakes, I'll send you the real McCoy.  Have a numerical code engraved on the bottom.
[/color]

"Nearly identical" as in: So close I couldn't tell the difference if I took multiple readings. But again, that was with the old one.

And yes, John is certainly a reliable source. I was paired in the final group with him in the 2005 SCGA Mid-Am. I shot 69, but it wasn't good enough, as he shot a 67 to finish clear of me by four(?) shots for the three round tournament at North Ranch (where the greens were 11ish).

PM sent with my address, Patrick.

Regarding the wind: I'll admit to not being an expert, as I did in a previous post. It was, however, a 3 to 4 club wind for everyone in the field. What would you guess that to be? Guys were hitting full 3-woods or 2-irons into a 177 yard hole, and many were unable to reach a 220ish yard hole with Driver. What would you guess the wind to have been blowing, Patrick?

[James Bennett]

There was one other blemish on an otherwise perfect day was when Greiner, using a golf cart as he had no caddie, was impeded in his progress in getting to the next tee by the spectators in their own golf carts blocking his way. I think the CGA should issue an edict that the player be allowed to move first.

Bob

Bob

Re the carts, the Conditions of the Competition barred any carts on the course except for contestants and caddies and Rules Officials, however your club begged us to permit your members to bring spectator carts on the course with the assurance that any members using carts on the course would remain on the paths and be unobtrusive.  We try and accommadate the host club, especially when your membership had been as gracious as yours was--however what apparently happened in the final match was exactly why we adopt the "No Spectator Cart" rule.

What we experience in other events, where we bend the rule, is that the club pro staff or other club officer (Pres, Board member, etc) will generally take responsibility for the control of members carts when they are permitted as an exception to the rule and a significant gallery follows a match or pairing. The club "Marshall" will take on the responsiblity to insure that no interference or distraction occurs to the players and control where carts may travel and when they may move--

If we return to MPCC (which I hope is really a "when" rather than an "if"), this is perhaps an issue we will need to clarify with the club as a condition to bending our general condition of competition.

Bob, Dennis

I assume the MPCC members would have had a difficult time sticking to cart paths on the Shore course.  IIRC, the sand capping of the fairways has enabled the elimination of cart paths generally from the course.  

James B

[AndrewB]

Dennis,

Now that the stroke play portion tournament is being held over two courses, was/is there any thought given to increasing the size of the field?  We played 156 last year the first two days at Poppy Hills and that remained the same this year despite having two courses available.  I'm just assuming the plan going forward is to always have two courses, given next year's plan to use two separate courses.

Increasing the field size would mean taking up more of the host club's resources and longer days for all the volunteers and staff running the event (thank you for your involvement by the way, the tournament was very well run), but it would also give more players the opportunity to compete for our state championship.

[Bob_Huntley]

Andrew,

If a player cannot make it into the last 152 qualifiers then perhaps he doesn't belong.

Bob

[Dennis_Harwood]

Dennis,

Now that the stroke play portion tournament is being held over two courses, was/is there any thought given to increasing the size of the field?  We played 156 last year the first two days at Poppy Hills and that remained the same this year despite having two courses available.  I'm just assuming the plan going forward is to always have two courses, given next year's plan to use two separate courses.

Increasing the field size would mean taking up more of the host club's resources and longer days for all the volunteers and staff running the event (thank you for your involvement by the way, the tournament was very well run), but it would also give more players the opportunity to compete for our state championship.

Andrew-- Its a problem of daylight, logistics and acceptablity to club members-

What we are striving for is consistency in the format (which was not always true if you are familiar with our yearly negotiations with Pebble)-- we want to retain the two day qualifying, then 32 qualifiers into match play on an annual basis--

Even with that format, the available venues are smaller than you think (Its getting like the US OPEN--the quality of the course is only one of about 15 criteria, and often it isn't even the most important)-- I was going to post a topic of whether this type of event (stroke qualifying then match play) can effectively be held at a facility of less than 36 holes-

MPCC is perfect with two great courses and a willing membership allowing us both courses-- Still, if you followed the playoff there was not an abundance of daylight when it was completed on Tues-- and our times were "locked in" Weds meaning we could not carry the playoffs over to Weds AM-

We are qualifying with two courses, starting on both nines, with a 7:30 am start (which the course requires to insure course is prepared) and a slightly after 5 pm finish for the last groups teeing off at noon--

Where do you put additional players?

I hate to raise it but I am losing sleep already if the "perfect storm" hits next year-- We may have players finishing at 5pm plus at Oakmont who are in a playoff at Lakeside-- Although they are less than 20 miles apart, that is gridlock time on the LA freeways-- How long does it take to pack up equipment and drive to Lakeside at 5:15 to 5:30 in LA rush traffic? Then give the players enough time to unload, hit a few practice balls and start the playoff? Do we have enough time before dark?  Do we light the last green with headlights? Do we ask northern players to add one night to the hotel and adjust flights to return for one possible hole the next morning?

The mind boogles!

Its issues like these that severly limit the number of venues, even in California, that can handle such an event if we maintain the "full field" of 156- Some of those courses mentioned don't have the housing, the proximity to another course, the willing membership who without 36 holes is willing to give up the course for at least 3 or 4 days (membership play is hardly restricted when you reach the quarters)-

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Ober,

Gauging the wind is difficult without an Anemometer.

Measuring by club lengths doesn't always provide an accurate reading of velocities.

Some winds are heavier/lighter than others.
Moisture content impacts ball flight.
A dry wind will have less of an effect on a ball than a wet wind at the same mph.

A steady wind of 30 mph is significant.
When greens stimp at 13+ it doesn't matter how wet they are, they're stimping at 13+.  If they were dry they'd probably stimp higher.

But, somewhere, there's someone who knows the formula for when a ball begins to move when influenced by stimp, wind and slope.

Perhaps the measurement baseline should be done without slope, just using wind and stimp.  Once you determine what combinations cause the ball to move on a flat surface, you could introduce the third element.

Year's ago, I wrote to the USGA with respect to doing a study on stimp and slope, but, to my knowledge, nothing ever came of it.

What many peope forget is that a putt can stimp at 13 in one direction and 9 in the opposite direction, establishing the overall stimp reading of 11.

[Bob_Huntley]

Dennis,

It would seem that the most likely venues for the Championship when played in Southern California, would be in the Palm Desert area. Albeit, at a different time of the year.

Apart from LACC what other clubs have two courses and even if they agreed to host the event, is the South course something that would appeal to you?

Bob

[JESII]

30 mph wind is not read at ground level, so it's not a 30 mph wind blowing balls around on these 13 foot greens...although it wouldn't take a 30 mph wind to blow a ball on a green that stimped 13 feet...

I played in the British Amateur in 1997 at Royal St. Georges and stood over every putt watching the ball wobble in place...the greens were about 8.5 and when I went into the pro shop to ask about the wind speed, the pro predicted 20 - 25 tops...I'd agree that wind speed is one of the three most exaggerated measurements in a golfer's repertoire...

[Tom Huckaby]

Sully, I'd agree, but I wonder what the other two are?

 

And this does change things re the venues... I hadn't considered that two courses are required.  Oh good lord yes are you going to have some nightmares next year with playoffs, Dennis.  I'd suggest mandating that such take place at Lakeside, as at least going from Oakmont to there would be against the prevailing commute direction.  But still, it is going to be hellish getting to Lakeside late in the day.

So Bob brings up valid questions... there sure as heck aren't many places with two top-flight courses very close together.  The event was very luck up at Pebble all those years and very lucky to get MPCC this year.  It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.

BTW, of course it would work very well with any combination of Olympic Lake, Olympic Ocean, SFGC, Lake Merced.....

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Ober & JES II,

The reason that I'm interested in the interrelationship of those elements has to do with contouring on today's greens and the increased speeds that most clubs strive for.

Recently, on a practice putting green, I pushed an uphill, left to right putt, to the right.  The slope pushed the ball further right and down off the green.

The slope that the hole sat on appeared subtle at first glance.
But, when I examined it more carefully, I saw how the shallow ridge functioned to redirect mis-hit putts.

I like pronounced contours in greens.
But, with increased stimp speeds you can't place the hole, in a defensive mode, close to that pronounced contour.

Greens within greens gives the architect more latitude to insert pronounced contours.

I'd like to know the following

At what speeds and what slopes will a ball become unstable ?
At what speeds and at what velocities will a ball become unstable ?
At what slopes and what velocities will a ball become unstable ?

It would seem that knowing the answer to those questions would allow an architect to shape his greens, in a site specific manner, such that he could maximize the use of all three elements to form interesting and challenging greens.

[JESII]

Pat,


Could you explain the phrase "in a defensive mode" in that post there. I cannot tell if the player or the hole-cutter is the one being defensive.

Also, I believe grain will have a significant impact on those readings you are looking for. The newer bents that stand up straight would seem to hold onto the ball on a steeper slope than would grainy greens with the grain going with the slope...assuming the same overall stimpmeter reading.

[Matt_Cohn]

LMGC, tentatively '09, will have a full field at one course, with morning and afternoon waves.

I don't think we need to limit the discussion to two-course clubs. However, a club with one course would be need to give up their golf facilities in their entirety for three straight days.

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt - gotcha - thanks.  OK then, reinstate my previous comments, and worries about the health of the event.

Dennis' worries for next year are very valid, btw.  Man I am shuddering to think about the playoff logistics.  Ouch.

[Mike Benham]

Mid-June are the longest days of the year and the 7:30 AM start seems to eliminate an hour or so of tee times

What are the pace of play targets for this event?  

Bob H. commented that he thought the pace of play was "glacial", specifically the routines of some golfers while on the greens, where there any pace of play issues this year?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Could you explain the phrase "in a defensive mode" in that post there. I cannot tell if the player or the hole-cutter is the one being defensive.

By "defensive" I mean using the contour as a defensive feature, one that prevents access to the hole without interfacing with it.

The contour could be in front of the hole, blocking access, or behind or flanking the hole limiting access.

As Stimps get higher, locating the hole in close proximity to the contour becomes impractical, thus defeating, to a degree, the purpose of the contour.[/color]

Also, I believe grain will have a significant impact on those readings you are looking for. The newer bents that stand up straight would seem to hold onto the ball on a steeper slope than would grainy greens with the grain going with the slope...assuming the same overall stimpmeter reading.

I'm not so sure that grain has an effect on the overall stimp reading.  It certainly affects speed in one direction, but, overall stimp readings are done in several directions, averaging out the lows and highs.[/color]

[JESII]

Pat,

Just picture a green that stimps 11 feet. The new bents that stand up straight will have very little differential from one direction to another - so long as you have found a flat area. A grainy green will have a differential just by the nature of grain.

Now picture that grain growing down the slope (as all the grain does on my home course, which has a strong grain promotion program). The green still stimps at 11 feet overall, but there will be less friction (the blades are laying down with the slope as opposed to standing up holding the ball) on the slopes.

The interesting thing about this is that when our superintendent grooms the greens their overall speed probably goes up, but downhill/downgrain putts seem[/i] slower and uphill into the grain putts just fly.

Now, back to how this effects your test ideas...you must take into account whether or not any grain is helping the ball leave its position on a certain degree slope or in a certain strength wind because it will be a lower number than on non-grain greens.

All-in-all, I think it might be a bit much to put into the bucket of building a god set of greens, after all...isn't that slope you talked about on the putting green more of a threat now that the speeds have gone up and therefore somewhat balanced by the fact that the hole might be cut further from it?

[David Ober]

David Ober,

Gauging the wind is difficult without an Anemometer.

Measuring by club lengths doesn't always provide an accurate reading of velocities.

Some winds are heavier/lighter than others.
Moisture content impacts ball flight.
A dry wind will have less of an effect on a ball than a wet wind at the same mph.

A steady wind of 30 mph is significant.
When greens stimp at 13+ it doesn't matter how wet they are, they're stimping at 13+.  If they were dry they'd probably stimp higher.

But, somewhere, there's someone who knows the formula for when a ball begins to move when influenced by stimp, wind and slope.

Perhaps the measurement baseline should be done without slope, just using wind and stimp.  Once you determine what combinations cause the ball to move on a flat surface, you could introduce the third element.

Year's ago, I wrote to the USGA with respect to doing a study on stimp and slope, but, to my knowledge, nothing ever came of it.

What many peope forget is that a putt can stimp at 13 in one direction and 9 in the opposite direction, establishing the overall stimp reading of 11.

Patrick,

Though I'm not a USGA-certified Master StimpReader(TM), I do know how to take a stimp reading. ;-)

On the practice green I rolled three balls on the flatest area I could find. The readings were as follows: ~15 feet, ~15 feet, ~15 feet, ~ 9 feet, ~9 feet, ~9 feet

I'll leave you to do the math. ;-)

As I said, the practice green was soaking wet in the early morning when I took the readings. The greens on the course were significantly drier and faster than the practice green.

Regarding the moisture on the green affecting the possibility of balls moving, I think you have possibly missed something:
A stimp reading measures how far a ball will travel when it is rolled down a ramp. It has nothing to do with a ball moving from a stationary position.

In other words: You could have two greens, both stimping at 13. On green A, a ball will move from a stationary position when x amount of wind force (or gravity) is applied to it. But on green B it will take x plus y amount of force because green B has more surface moisture.

This seems a reasonable hypothesis to me.

I'm looking forward to calibrating my meter against a real stimpmeter. If it does match up with the real McCoy, then there's no doubt in my mind that the greens on the Shore on Tuesday were at least 13.

[Bill_McBride]

Bob:

There is no doubt that David must be a fine and careful putter; he wouldn't get to the the great player he is without being such.

The question is more the role that using a stimpmeter to measure a practice green plays in become such a fine putter.  

Does knowing a green is 10 make him fire away with impugnity, and 12 makes him careful?

It just seems odd to me to make putting this scientific.  It also must make things quite strange on the many courses whose practice putting greens are a far different speed than the greens on the course.

Thus I have the same question Mike has....

But in the the answer likely lies and explanation as to why I am off and on with my putting and David drills dowhill putts at MPCC.

 

I played at Columbia-Edgewater in Portland last Friday while the quarters and semis of the Oregon Amateur were being contested.

I wish I'd had a stimpmeter on #5, a short par 4 where I hit one of my few decent irons of the day, a nine iron to 10' behind the pin.  It LOOKED pretty level.    After my first carefully tapped putt I had a 15'er back uphill.    

Yes, a stimpmeter would have helped, or maybe some touch.

When they set up a course with pretty quick greens to start with for a high level event, it's a fun challenge.

[Bill_McBride]

It would seem that the most likely venues for the Championship when played in Southern California, would be in the Palm Desert area. Albeit, at a different time of the year.

Bob, no golf in Palm Springs in June?    To think that was only a year ago!

[David Ober]

30 mph wind is not read at ground level, so it's not a 30 mph wind blowing balls around on these 13 foot greens...although it wouldn't take a 30 mph wind to blow a ball on a green that stimped 13 feet...

I played in the British Amateur in 1997 at Royal St. Georges and stood over every putt watching the ball wobble in place...the greens were about 8.5 and when I went into the pro shop to ask about the wind speed, the pro predicted 20 - 25 tops...I'd agree that wind speed is one of the three most exaggerated measurements in a golfer's repertoire...

That's probably what the winds were like at the Cal Am, then. On the exposed holes, my ball was wobbling on just about every hole. On number 14, Dunes, balls were blown off the green multiple times.

I certainly wouldn't complain if someone said "They were 25 and not 30." Big deal. :-)

[Tom Huckaby]

Bill - just to be clear, I'm with you in that greens speeded up for special events make for very interesting play.

My question was more what role using a stimpmeter plays in this.  And David answered - he does it more for curiousity than anything else.

But since you brought that up... would knowing the greens were stimp whatever have helped you hit that putt softer?  Hadn't you figured out the speed at least somewhat by playing the first four holes?

I am genuinely curious... I've never put any value playing-wise in knowing the stimp reading of the greens.  But perhaps I could benefit....

TH

[Bill_McBride]

Tom, as you know I sometimes warm up slowly.  

The first four holes were spent doing so and, as I recall, chipping or pitching from in front and left uphill putts.  #5's slippery slope was the first I'd faced.

And you're right, knowing the stimpmeter would read 13 vs 10 shouldn't have made a difference except that I might have tapped the putt even more softly.

[Tom Huckaby]

Heck, I warm up slowly also.

And there have been times I just never have gotten the speed at courses... usually when it's on the extreme, very fast or very slow....

So the more I think about this, the more I am starting to believe that knowing the stimp reading would help.

I am just so vehemently opposed to the green-speed arms race, it kills me to give stimp any value.

So how mercenary should one be about this game?

 

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