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Adam Clayman

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Geoff's Quote 6/8/07 Tom Doak
« on: June 08, 2007, 02:11:59 PM »
Quote
It has all the charm of an S.S. commandant the way it is set up for a tournament.  TOM DOAK on Oakmont

Compliment?

Ridiculing the set-up?

How do you interpret this quote?



« Last Edit: June 08, 2007, 04:01:35 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

PThomas

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Re:Geoff's Quote 6/8/07
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2007, 02:16:37 PM »
that's one of Tom's wittier lines, I think, from his Confidential Guide  :D

Adam, I think he means that Oakmont is just a brutal , difficult test with little if any letup

are there ANY birdie holes out there??

not a course for gambling, swashbuckling-type of play, the way Augusta used to be

I think it was Geoff S who reported that they are cutting the rough there, it's too difficult there as is
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

BCrosby

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Re:Geoff's Quote 6/8/07
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2007, 02:37:35 PM »
Just a guess, but "the charm of an S.S. commandant" sounds like he doesn't like it very much.

Bob

PThomas

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Re:Geoff's Quote 6/8/07
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2007, 02:43:29 PM »
Just a guess, but "the charm of an S.S. commandant" sounds like he doesn't like it very much.

Bob

I believe he gave it a 9 Bob

I believe it was in the Oakmont writeup that he made another great point:  why is it "unfair" to many to have heavy rough around the green , making an up and down just about impossible, yet "ok" for a pond to be next to the green?
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Jim Sweeney

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Re:Geoff's Quote 6/8/07
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2007, 02:48:41 PM »
Doak's comment is not a put down; it captures the personality Mr. Fownes wanted in his "man sized course."

Many of the pre=open articles being written pont out the abusive nature of Oakmont. Seems to me the SS analogy fits perfectly.
"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

Adam Clayman

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Re:Geoff's Quote 6/8/07
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2007, 03:08:19 PM »
I cannot for the life of me find a photo of Darren Nesbit. He played SS Sturmbannfuher Von Hapen in the film "where eagles dare".

He was quite charming if I have the correct character.

The blonde gestapo guy who buys it right between the eyes.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Garland Bayley

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Re:Geoff's Quote 6/8/07
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2007, 03:12:26 PM »
Adam,

Please don't get the idea that I don't enjoy these threads, but wouldn't they be better titled Quoted by Geoff instead of Geoff's Quote.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Dan Kelly

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Re:Geoff's Quote 6/8/07
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2007, 03:27:14 PM »
Quote
It has all the charm of an S.S. commandant the way it is set up for a tournament.  TOM DOAK on Oakmont

Isn't that true of every U.S. Open Championship® course, save Pebble Beach and Shinnecock?

And isn't that the USGA's mission: to exude all the charm of an S.S. commandant?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Adam Clayman

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Re:Geoff's Quote 6/8/07 Tom Doak
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2007, 04:01:12 PM »
Thats a good point Dan. However, Pinehurst #2 comes to mind as an exception. But thats only a perception fom limited study.

Garland,

I might see your point, but I don't. Maybe it's because I forgot to put Tom's name in the title. Lets see if that helps?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Bill_McBride

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Re:Geoff's Quote 6/8/07 Tom Doak
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2007, 04:25:12 PM »
Great line by Tom Doak, right up there with my favorite, Jim Murray's line on #10 at Riviera!

Pete Lavallee

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Re:Geoff's Quote 6/8/07 Tom Doak
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2007, 04:26:45 PM »
Some guys are just a sucker for harlots in fish net stockings. :D
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Mark Studer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Geoff's Quote 6/8/07 Tom Doak
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2007, 04:39:21 PM »
I just returned to my office having played oakmont at 11:20...one more chance tomorrow before the 156 move in.  They have been keeping the rough in check...VERY thick but I was able to hit an eight iron out of the right rough on #7 green....could not have done that  ,  no way , no how,in either '83 or '94.  The greens are just perfect...running about 11 or 12.  John Zimmers and his crew have been shooting for june 14th,2007 for about 5 years now and they should be well pleased.  I still cannot believe that Tom Doak did not include oakmont as one of the 31 flavors.  HC and his son, WC Fownes were ahead of all the "golden age boys".Just think 1903;horses& plow and we arestill challenging the world's finest players for the eighth time since 1927.
The First Tee:Golf Lessons/Life Lessons

Garland Bayley

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Re:Geoff's Quote 6/8/07 Tom Doak
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2007, 04:40:56 PM »
Tom's name helps some.

My reaction to "Geoff's Quote" is what has that Oglivy said now?

The point being the Geoff Oglivy and Geoff Schackelford did not say any of the things quoted so they don't own them.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

TEPaul

Re:Geoff's Quote 6/8/07 Tom Doak
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2007, 04:50:19 PM »
Mark:

You hit an 8 iron out of the rough onto #7 green not because the roughs not thick but because you're an animal.

What's a skinny little slip of a guy like a David Howell III going to do? If he tries to hit an 8 iron outta the rough onto #7 green will you volunteer to drive him to the hospital?

Furthermore, I don't think Doak's remark that Oakmont has all the charm of an SS Commandant means Oakmont has no charm. I mean if you asked Mrs. SS Commandant she would probably say that both Mr. SS Commandant, all their little SS Commandants juniors AND Oakmont have a lot of charm.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2007, 04:54:36 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Geoff's Quote 6/8/07 Tom Doak
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2007, 04:52:53 PM »
I just returned to my office having played oakmont at 11:20...one more chance tomorrow before the 156 move in.  They have been keeping the rough in check...VERY thick but I was able to hit an eight iron out of the right rough on #7 green....could not have done that  ,  no way , no how,in either '83 or '94.  The greens are just perfect...running about 11 or 12.  John Zimmers and his crew have been shooting for june 14th,2007 for about 5 years now and they should be well pleased.  I still cannot believe that Tom Doak did not include oakmont as one of the 31 flavors.  HC and his son, WC Fownes were ahead of all the "golden age boys".Just think 1903;horses& plow and we arestill challenging the world's finest players for the eighth time since 1927.

Mark,

I was there for both weekend days in 83 and you're absolutely correct that advancing an 8-iron on #7 was almost impossible.   It was pure pitch-out rough, pure and simple, and in many places even finding the ball was a challenge.  

Severiano Ballesteros kept in contention for awhile by hitting long-irons from most tees, and it was no surprise that ultra-accurate drivers like Calvin Peete and Larry Nelson (the eventual winner) were near the top of the field.  

It sounds encouraging to me that the rough is being kept reasonably manageable this year, which should present some very interesting tactical choices to the field that pure chip out rough doesn't permit.

Good luck with everything...you guys clearly deserve a GREAT Open and I'm sure you're all very proud to show the old gal off to the world in all her deforested glory.  ;D
« Last Edit: June 08, 2007, 04:53:54 PM by MPCirba »

Mark Studer

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Re:Geoff's Quote 6/8/07 Tom Doak
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2007, 05:19:00 PM »
We played the "blue tees"...about 600 yards shorter than the us open setup.  Truly the rough seems fair from the sense that even with a bad lie , you can advance a sand wedge 90 yards or so  and have a chance from the fairway.  I hit my drive on 12 about 2 feet right of the first cut and was able to advance a 9 iron and hit a 9 iron on ....keep in mind that we played from "only" 562 yards.  Mike Davis and his staff have been on site many times working out the setup standards with John Zimmers and they are on top of it.   The putting greens seem to be a bit smoother and faster than those of Winged Foot last year .  There have been plastic fencing panels placed on the fairway for the last 2 weeks in heavy traffic areas (on the short 4 pars) and on the teeing ground of the 3 pars to save the turf for the championship. In 28 summers as a member I have never seen it in better condition.
The First Tee:Golf Lessons/Life Lessons

TEPaul

Re:Geoff's Quote 6/8/07 Tom Doak
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2007, 05:30:16 PM »
"In 28 summers as a member I have never seen it in better condition."

Mark:

We don't use the term "good condition" or even "condition" to describe golf courses anymore. That term is passe and has dreadful connotations. To describe the state of a golf course one must use varying descriptive degrees of the Ideal Maintenance Meld or even a number from 1 to 10.

Mark Studer

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Re:Geoff's Quote 6/8/07 Tom Doak
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2007, 05:42:12 PM »
How 'bout TOUGH LOVE for a current term.  At oakmont, the Hades of Hulton, according  to Mr. Herbert Warren Wind,  tough love  is appropriate.  The members love it tough....and love to see the pros have it tough.
The First Tee:Golf Lessons/Life Lessons

Tom_Doak

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Re:Geoff's Quote 6/8/07 Tom Doak
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2007, 06:16:53 PM »
Mark:

I couldn't rightly include Oakmont among the 31 Flavors as I have still never played it.  (I have walked it four times, so I do remember it pretty well.)

George Pazin

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Re:Geoff's Quote 6/8/07 Tom Doak
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2007, 06:26:06 PM »
I'm not surprised at Mark's comments re: the rough. In '03, it appeared to be just about perfect - heavy enough to influence shots, not so heavy as to be an automatic hack out.

Right now it is absolutely pouring buckets outside. I hope it's not a harbinger of next week.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom_Doak

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Re:Geoff's Quote 6/8/07 Tom Doak
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2007, 07:25:27 PM »
While looking through The Confidential Guide, trying to see if there are any great courses which don't have good routings, I came across my review of Oakmont and thought I would reprint it here for those without a book.


This must be considered as one of the classic American courses because of its place in the history of American course design, but it was probably my least favorite of the classics untilt he most recent Open [1983], which cemented my fondness for it.  It has all the charm of an S.S. commandant the way it is set up for a tournament, but the more everyone whined about it the more I grew to appreciate it:  it kept the best players in the world in check without resorting to the water and out-of-bounds that modern designers employ.  I've never understood why water to the right of a green is unacceptable, but rough and a tilted green that make it impossible to get up and down from the right are "unfair".

Hole-by-hole, I like the 3rd and 4th (though I dislike the Church Pews), the 12th, 13th, the 15th, and the 18th, and the 9th solely for its combination green and putting clock; but I hate the 1st hole as a par-4 opener, plus the 2nd, 8th, and 17th.  I'm also disappointed that the club has placed such emphasis on excessively fast greens; their contour would hold plenty of interest wihtout it, but the attention they've given to speed has led other courses to overdo it, too.  But you can't really hold that against the layout itself.  9.  [10/94, which is still the last time I was there]


Other than wondering what I was thinking by implying that modern architects have used o.b. as a defense of par, I'll stand by that review.

Adam_Messix

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Re:Geoff's Quote 6/8/07 Tom Doak
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2007, 07:58:31 PM »
Adam:

I think that among the people who matter the most, the membership at Oakmont, would consider that the ultimate compliment.  I'm sure Henry Clay and William C. Fownes would smile to read that statement.  

Mark S.:

Best of luck with the Open, I know that it will be a great one.


George Pazin

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Re:Geoff's Quote 6/8/07 Tom Doak
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2007, 08:31:49 PM »
Tom -

What makes the Church Pews any different from UK pot bunkers one has to play sideways out of?

Obviously the biggest error in your review is the number at the end - 9? People have been booted from the site for lesser heresies!

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Ryan Farrow

Re:Geoff's Quote 6/8/07 Tom Doak
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2007, 09:20:34 PM »
We played the "blue tees"...about 600 yards shorter than the us open setup.  Truly the rough seems fair from the sense that even with a bad lie , you can advance a sand wedge 90 yards or so  and have a chance from the fairway.  I hit my drive on 12 about 2 feet right of the first cut and was able to advance a 9 iron and hit a 9 iron on ....keep in mind that we played from "only" 562 yards.  Mike Davis and his staff have been on site many times working out the setup standards with John Zimmers and they are on top of it.   The putting greens seem to be a bit smoother and faster than those of Winged Foot last year .  There have been plastic fencing panels placed on the fairway for the last 2 weeks in heavy traffic areas (on the short 4 pars) and on the teeing ground of the 3 pars to save the turf for the championship. In 28 summers as a member I have never seen it in better condition.


Mark, even better than last summer? They did have a big loss this year with the departure of yours truly. :) I heard the fescue is still green, unfortunate that all the people watching on TV will not see the mid summers brown fescue. :)

Tom, what don't you like about #1? I think it’s a perfect opener that sets the tone for the type of bullshit that you will be putting up with for the next 17 holes.

While I am at it, I could defend 2, 8, and 17, minus # 8's green but at that length is there any need to pile it on?

« Last Edit: June 09, 2007, 02:12:21 AM by Ryan Farrow »

paul cowley

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Re:Geoff's Quote 6/8/07 Tom Doak
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2007, 09:30:31 PM »
Great quote!
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

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