[RJ_Daley]

To follow-on and not detract from JK's thread on punting:

For those of you that will punt at a certain price - no matter how great or highly covetted and ranked the course is...

What is your price point to punt?

Is there a sliding scale for you depending on the course?  
Is there an absolute price breaker?
Is there a seasonal sliding scale?
Is there a social criteria (based on who you will play a very high priced/highly regarded course with?

For me, there is an absolute.  I'd say it is about $250.  BUT... that much only for a course of such high regard, and must be with the right poeple, and at the right time in the season.  

I'd have to say I have a secondary price point of about $150 for very good courses, even if the other circumstances aren't right (companions, season)

NO way I will play anything, for $250 or more (anymore) for anything.  So, if that eliminates TOC, or privates like Pine Valley, Cypress Pt, etc.  I will thank the offerer, but say no.

I will pay about 150-200 if they have a second play of half that amount, or an all day rate - like a very few courses/clubs do.

I realise that some of this has something to do with financial means.  Yet, even if I were a more wealthy gent, I think I'd have a point I'd say no.  

What do you guys think?

[Kalen Braley]

My price point is a sliding scale which is no different that spending moneey on most other things in the economy.  Sure I might get fooled once and over pay for a course that I thought was worth it...but I won't be back...

It is interesting to talk about upper crust though like PV, CP, etc.  While my price point on those is higher than $250, I'm not really exactly sure where that resides.

[RJ_Daley]

Kalen, you bring up another point that I wonder about.

Besides answering the above at what point will you punt - at what price point will you return if it meets your expectations?

Anotherwords, if you played for 150-200, and it was great, would you leave it as a onetimer or return for that price or even more?  For me again personally, I'd say I'd return if it met expectations for 150 and if it exceeded my expectation to be the best I've played, 250 tops, absolute. If it didn't meet my expectations, it falls to below 100or< for me.

[Tom Huckaby]

This is an interesting topic, if perhaps on the personal side.

I've always lived by the words of a great man, who has said many times:

"You can't put a price tag on a good time."

Now of course said great man is a gazillionaire, so it's easy for him to say.  But there is wisdom to it.

I tend to figure I'll regret NOT doing some awesome thing presented to me more than I'll regret any price I pay.  That being said, of course I'll just say no if the price is beyond what I can comfortably afford to spend, or borrow.

And I do understand if some, like Dick, have set thresholds where they're going to be thinking about what they're paying the whole time, and that would ruin the fun... the discomfort and/or guilt of it.

BUT... not to get too personal, but I have not a single iota of regret for what I've paid to play Cypress Point, and Dick, when you factor in caddie, it's right at your threshold.  Some things are just worth putting the threshold aside for.  That's one.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

RJ,

Thats a good question.  If a course meets expectations and its $50 or less, I will come back, probably multiple times. Then again I'm spoiled living here in northern utah where I have lots of really really good options for less than $50, with most of those coming in less than $30.

If its a course that above the $100 range, then I will come back, but thats more in the special trip/once per year kind of category.  For example, I did pony up $250 to play Pac Dunes, and I don't regret it 1 bit.  But when I go back, I'll be looking for thier off-season rates. As a general rule when it gets into that price range, its likely it might only be a once in a lifetime kind of situation.

An example of this would be going to Australia and playing some of the greats down there.  I would like to do it one day, but would likely only be once due to that nature of how far away it is.

[John Kavanaugh]

I would love to know who might comprimise their integrity to play a great course.  I might even kiss a little ass now and then.  I remember a time before I was a recognized pundit and favorite amongst the great clubs in the country.  I knew a guy who I could not stand that owned a private plane and was a member of Bob-o-Link....He asked and asked and despite often getting weak I thank God that I did not give in.  I always kinda feel sorry for guys who have to suck up at a sucky course because it is both polite and their duty.

[Jim Colton]

The only course that I can remember punting was Valderrama.  I had two tee times there for a weekend, but after realizing how much the entire cost of the weekend would be simply to play the course, we punted for a non-golf weekend in Barcelona instead (I was living in London at the time).  I don't regret that one at all.  Generally, I'm addicted to this game to the point that cost, even if considered completely irrational to most outsiders, isn't a major concern especially when playing courses I haven't experienced yet. But I want to make sure I'm getting some bang for my buck.  I doubt that I will ever play Shadow Creek, and I don't see myself out at Pebble Beach anytime soon unless it's under some extraordinary circumstances (like I qualify for the US Open there or something).

[Phil McDade]

Dick:

I'm finding my price-point willingness is getting cheaper and cheaper as my kids get nearer and nearer to enrolling in college!

Seriously, I think there is both a price point for a single course and one for a single trip. I spent a fair amount of money -- at least in my world -- for a golf trip overseas eight years ago, when the kids were very young; I don't think I'll repeat it anytime soon with college bills landing on the doorstep soon enough.

Besides, I figure I can emulate the experience of Machrihanish at a certain course in Gothenberg, Neb., for a lot less money (well, maybe not, if gas keeps heading north...)

[Jim Adkisson]

Being well renowned as a cheap SOB that has fun wherever he goes/plays, it is very tough for me to drop 3 digits on any course...I am lucky in that Bandon is only a 4 hour drive and I have no issue in setting my sites on November daily doubles once the off-season prices go into effect.

I kind of think of it like my season tickets to the Trailblazers...for years we had great seats at center court 8 rows off the floor...in 1970 they cost $7.50 per ticket...by the time we got rid of those seats they cost $92.50 per ticket, per game, including pre-season games...I had a terrible time at games because they never lived up to the cost of admission....now we sit upstairs in the rowdy section at less than $20 a pop...you may not see as much, can't hear the players cuss...but I always enjoy the game, even if the team is playing badly...

Back to the golf, I just got off a fun round with my brother at Rose City municipal...never to be rated as a top tier golf course, but we had a great morning...had some challenging shots and paid $23 each.

That being said, I'd drop the damned $$ to play PB, once....SUCKER!

[RJ_Daley]

When it comes to the cost of potential trips to someplace like Scotland, Ireland, Australia, etc., I couldn't possibly make such a trip golf-centric.  

In my universe, I could only justify such a trip to focus on the overall cultural experience that the locale has to offer, in which golf is only a part of the whole.

Thus, I think I would maintain my price point for golf on such a trip, and still draw the line on the price of a golf round at about 150, and only for perhaps TOC due to its significance.  As has been written recently, TOC is running about =$250US, so I'd decline.  I would rather spend that on two or three local courses that might have the flavor of Scottish links golf, if they could be found.  

The point about gas is something I'm wondering about as it relates to rounds at my dear old Wild Horse.  I wonder if rounds there are down...  I know I haven't made my usual spring trip in large part due to gas cost.  I would have gone recently for a RT air to Denver special of 165, but couldn't fit it in my personal sched.  But under the RT air less than I could drive it, it is worth it to me, because the golf is reasonably priced and the experience continues to be more than golf, and it feels right to me.  

[Kalen Braley]

When it comes to the cost of potential trips to someplace like Scotland, Ireland, Australia, etc., I couldn't possibly make such a trip golf-centric.  

I could, its not like those countries have any other redeming values...    Just kidding you all, don't get your undies in a wad.

My wife and I have discussed the possibility of re-locating to the UK after the kiddies are grown and out of the nest.  Its a bit far off, but I think that would be the way to do the golf thing in that neck of the woods. But before then I would love to do a trip, and yes that really would be all about the golf, especially if I only had a week or so over there.

[John Foley]

So little time, so many priorities...

I've payed a lot for Cascata & Pinehurst #2. Both had hotel deals and we're off season so in the grand scheme of things it was priced below the market value. I'd do #2 again for a similar deal, but Cascata was enough one time.

I played The Ocean Course 10 years ago for $120 which at the time was reasonable. Now??

I played Saguaro @ WeKoPa in season (Feb) for close to $200. Was it worth it? Getting out in the sun for a day in Feb when you live in the snow factory of western NY I'll say yeah. But not always.

There a number of places I want to see (Whistling Straits, Bandon, Ireland & Scotland) where the price is part of the equation, but I want my friends with me and their punt price is lower than mine.

I don't see stepping on at Pebble anytime in the future for price they are asking for.

I have not punted yet at a place I wanted to get to. The guys I go with each fall made a choice last year to do the RTJ Trail because the price was so good. And as for the experience, it was pretty damn good because of the company.

There are places I will not go to because of the price and places I will seak out because of who I get to play with.

[Doug Siebert]

Kalen brings up an interesting point...

He mentions he lives in Utah, and there are plenty of good options for $50 or less.  I live in Iowa, and the same is true here.  I think that might add a bit of "sticker shock" when I play away from home and get asked to pay $100 or $150 for a course that isn't as good as a course 20 minutes away that changes $21 weekdays and $27 on weekends.

Put that in context of paying $250 for TOC and whatever it would cost if I was lucky enough to have the opportunity to play somewhere like CPC and it seems silly to quibble much over the cost.  Certainly I can't see someone putting a hard line at $250 no matter what the course or once in a lifetime opportunity and not have some pretty darn high standards, like Doak 7 or even 8, to be willing to pay $150.

I mean, I consider that course I mention above that's $27 weekends to be a Doak 7, and while some may disagree and think its only a 6, its clearly a pretty damn good bang for the buck so paying 5-6x as much for a $150 course is ridiculous unless it is better.  But its pretty easy to find a $150 CCFAD in California that isn't as good as that $27 course by anyone's measure (unless you measure by kids picking up your bag in the parking lot -- you gotta go to the $50 course for that kind of treatment around here!)

So I don't have a punt price, as such, I'd just base it on the experience.  I feel for example that while I'd like to play Pebble, I hear too many horror stories about 6 hour rounds that I just can't see it as worth it, especially if you have to stay in the Lodge and bring the price up closer to $1000.  But I'll drop the asking price to play TOC again without a second thought.

I'm more likely to hit my punt price if I visited California and some friend lived on a course that wanted $100 plus mandatory cart.  Unless I had some reason to believe the course wasn't just going to frustrate me with a cartpath only policy, overly tight holes with routing dictated by the developer, and similar horrors, I'd say screw it.  I'd join Huck on his muni (if I'm gonna have a 6 hour round, at least it'd be cheap!) or visit some place I've never been that I have reason to believe would be worth the asking price like Pasatiempo or Rustic Canyon.

[Bryan Izatt]

I must admit that if I'm on a trip my price point is pretty high, maybe $200 to $250.  I'm getting to an age and financial situation where I might not get a chance to do it again at a particular course, so why not.  You can't take the money with you.

But in my neighbourhood, I don't go above $125.  The more expensive courses just aren't that much better.

There are some courses I'd break the bank for once (PB comes to mind), but never go back.  None of them is that special to be worth that much.  Bandon in the summer time has reached that point for me.

[RJ_Daley]

I wonder about the once in a lifetime, ultra expensive courses that folks say they would pay to play, like Pebble Beach or Shadow Creek, or wherever you know it is once and done due to the extreme pricing.  I wonder if you can talk yourself into spending it due to your love of golf as a game, or your desire to notch a trophy course on your belt.  I fully understand that some people live for the experience in that it is a beautiful setting, you play a storied course that you have seen photos or TV and dreamed to play one day.  Although, generally, a one and done, on a course that will probably beat you up, is more likely (not always) than to play well and leave feeling you conquered a great one.  So, doesn't that become more of a trophy situation?

But for me, I try not to kid myself that it is a high price I would pay for the full and pure pursuit of the interest in GCA.  I can only get so much architectural knowledge and appreciation for a one and done experience.  

[Tom Huckaby]

If seeking and obtaining architectural knowledge is one's driving force, then of course no way should one ever pay top dollar to play anywhere once.  Of course you won't be able to glean all that you want to - not even close.

But if experiencing PLAYING THE GAME on a storied venue -  one that you've dreamed about - floats your boat, well.... one time is sure as hell better than never doing it.

And the price point will be just what you feel comfortable spending.

I believe it's clear where I stand.  Seeking architectural knowledge is about #98 in the 100 reasons I play this game.  But I do try to understand you guys, really I do.

 

[John Kavanaugh]

Huck,

If you have played Pebble and Shadow for free then you don't get it.  Like I said, sometimes we pay in different ways then currency to get on great courses.

[Tom Huckaby]

JK:

I played Shadow Creek gratis, Pebble gratis a few times, some serious money (but less than it is now) a few other times.  I've also paid money I was not very comfortable parting with for quite a few other great golf courses, my funky friend.

I get it.

Big time.

But thanks for your concern.  You are right in one part of this - the currency I pay to do a lot of the things I do is WAY WAY WAY more dear than money.

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

Huck,

Name one great course where you were uncomfortable about the price you paid that you played alone.

[Tom Huckaby]

Why does it have to be alone?  I don't often do that, it's not very much fun for me.

But courses that I have paid more than I felt comfortable paying, but did so anyway, that would be a very long list.  Start with Sand Hills.  That was a lot of money for a guy like me - and even MORE in terms of home/marital currency - but I regret not a single bit of any spending.

TH

[RJ_Daley]

Tom, I may be a little more skeptical about the experience than you.  That is why I have a price point where nothing is worth that.  Pebble is one of those.  Sure, we all know the storied venue.  We see it every year where the pros and stars play in a magical setting.  It is a pretty well regarded architectural work.  Though on the architecture, not a universal agreement, it would seem.  But no way $450.  To me, there is nothing to get out of a one and done, and that is all I could possibly afford or justify, at that price.  There is no rationale for a guy like me to ever return to play at that price, let alone even once.  So, it seems futile to me.

But, BallyNeal is 'south' of $250 (if a guest) and it is of the highest architectural/design work and the setting is one of the enchanting isolated regions, like Sand Hills GC.  In my opinion, the prices are still high, but a price I am likely and more comfortable to pay multiple times to play inorder to actually get the full design appreciation.  SHGC, with the generosity of a guest invite, with its all day play for a price, is also a price one can eagerly pay to play and more fully appreciate the GCA.  Those are the value to price points to me.

[Tom Huckaby]

Dick:

I am not saying you are wrong.  I am not saying I am right.  I am just saying there are different ways to look at this... and in terms of price it does get very personal.

I get your take - definitely.  It seems wise and logical to me.

I just do look at this a bit differently than you do.  My way is neither logical nor wise.  But it is passionate.

 

[John Kavanaugh]

Huck,

One thing that you don't get is that at Sand Hills you paid a reduced rate.  Your round was subsidized by the dues that your host pays every month.  Or the owners capital outlays if so lucky.  Do you really believe that your money at a private club even sniffs the bottom line? That could be the number one whine of your career.   When do you start on the View?

[Tom Huckaby]

JK:

This is far far far from a whine.  I am not complaining in any way shape or form.  Can you read?  I said I have zero regrets.  I also know damn well it was "subsidized" to some extent - on top of what you say, of course I got a reduced rate going with a member and paid less than I would going without.  I am not nearly as stupid as you seem to think.

You just asked for an example, and that popped to mind.  Subsidized or not, at the end of the day it was a large outlay for a guy of my means.  It was also a MUCH LARGER outlay in terms of what it meant to my family.  But enough about that.

When do you start on Dickheads Weekly?

TH

[Jerry Kluger]

I view paying a big price as tuition for learning about the subject that GCA is all about.  Would I pay a big price to play some big name course which to me is not a significant architectural achievement - no. But I have paid big tuition to play others that I would consider important if one is to make a determined effort to learn as much as possible about golf course design.

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