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Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Oakmont — c. 1939
« on: June 03, 2007, 09:06:27 PM »
Many of you have seen this late 1930s drawing as I was underway with research during the past several months.



The drawing was made by Jack Snyder during his senior year at Penn State in 1939 (theory). It is currently on ebay and will remain there through the U.S. Open. Some smaller, limited edition prints will be created to raise funds for the ASGCA Foundation. At present I do not know how these will reach the public.

The complete story is on the ebay listing.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2007, 09:57:07 PM by Forrest Richardson »
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oakmont — c. 1939
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2007, 09:16:28 PM »
Forrest....I can't open what you have presented.
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oakmont — c. 1939
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2007, 09:18:11 PM »
I am terrible at this image posting stuff. I edited it and it should — now — be OK.
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Mike_Cirba

Re:Oakmont — c. 1939
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2007, 10:30:46 PM »


Forrest...hopefully, this will work.
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Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oakmont — c. 1939
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2007, 10:40:40 PM »
Yes. That is what I get in both posts now. Thanks.
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

TEPaul

Re:Oakmont — c. 1939
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2007, 10:48:51 PM »
Forrest:

I couldn't open the email you sent me either. I got GOOGLE or something. But I'm a real dunce at that kind of computer stuff.

But tell us about Snyder's drawing. I think I remember you saying once on here that he redesigned #8. If so he did good.
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Mike_Cirba

Re:Oakmont — c. 1939
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2007, 10:57:31 PM »
Forrest,

I can't see anything on either of our posts.

If you can send me the link you're trying to post from, I might be able to figure out what's wrong.

Thanks!
Mike
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Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oakmont — c. 1939
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2007, 10:59:40 PM »
TE and Cirba

This link should work..

http://tinyurl.com/ynolwt
« Last Edit: June 03, 2007, 11:00:50 PM by Kalen Braley »
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Oakmont — c. 1939
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2007, 07:39:56 AM »
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
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Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oakmont — c. 1939
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2007, 09:29:44 PM »
Steve — Thanks for figuring our the method to post. On ebay there are some details. The Church Pews and No. 9 green are really interesting. The sqaureness of the greens is quite dramatic in this old plan.
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oakmont — c. 1939
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2007, 09:58:02 PM »
Very cool Forrest.

I am not sure what those long snake like black lines are on many of the holes....I hope they are little strategic berms....little cops style dykish features.

....but wait....did I not see these same features earlier today in the USGA Open supplement? and that they all seemed to be wearing a Shinnecock styled fescue?.



What are these strategic features?

Were they Fowned upon?

Would they be frowned upon today?

 
« Last Edit: June 10, 2007, 05:15:47 PM by paul cowley »
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Ryan Farrow

Re:Oakmont — c. 1939
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2007, 10:03:05 PM »
#9 has had a lot of the square-ness restored. It looks like the green was even larger than it is today with the front left side shaped the way it is. There is also a lot of square-ness now on the front left and front right.
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Peter Pallotta

Re:Oakmont — c. 1939
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2007, 10:15:07 PM »
Paul,

Did you ever hear the old Fran Leibowitz joke?

"Original thought is like Original Sin. Both happened a long time ago to people you couldn't posibly have met".

Peter

Also, about those berms, Paul, I think they're saying something like "I am your past. Beware my gaze." Strange, huh?

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paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oakmont — c. 1939
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2007, 10:23:17 PM »
Ryan [or anyone else]....help me with the snakey things please....
« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 10:24:09 PM by paul cowley »
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Ryan Farrow

Re:Oakmont — c. 1939
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2007, 10:40:20 PM »
Paul, I like the description, I will now refer to them as snakey things as well.

They are just as you suggested, narrow drainage ditches that are somewhat strategic depending on what hole we are talking about. Some of them catch a lot of drainage and I think they really help keep the course in good shape. They recently hollowed them all out, sand capped them and planted fescue grasses in them.

Here are some pictures:






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paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oakmont — c. 1939
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2007, 03:36:12 AM »
Thank you Ryan.....interesting...very interesting.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2007, 07:43:51 AM by paul cowley »
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oakmont — c. 1939
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2007, 11:05:19 AM »
Those drainage ditches are a lot deeper than I recall from the late 1980's, and have a gnarlier look that is actually somewhat reminiscent of the cops at Hoylake!



It's really added a nice "antique" look to the course.
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Peter Pallotta

Re:Oakmont — c. 1939
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2007, 09:19:09 PM »
Paul C
What are you seeing in/learning from the 1939 map and the pictures Ryan put up that's so interesting?

The drainage ditches as strategic features seemed to surprise/impress you...can you explain why?

Thanks
Peter

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paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oakmont — c. 1939
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2007, 01:05:49 AM »
Peter....coincidentially I was thinking of creating similar features to use on a new course we have just started in Maryland.
Until I saw this post I had no idea that Oakmont had similar features.

This is a good example of how an idea can be a totally new discovery to a person, but not necessarily new in the greater world.

Actually my idea is only partly similar, and it serves a different purpose.....its more a form similarity than a functional one.

And I'll probably continue with the concept.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2007, 01:06:40 AM by paul cowley »
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oakmont — c. 1939
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2007, 01:40:47 PM »
Yes, those appear to be ditches. I think is pretty much a confirmation since we can see them in places where they were never lost — No. 5 as an example.
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

TEPaul

Re:Oakmont — c. 1939
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2007, 08:26:19 PM »
PaulC:

It looks like Maryland will retain some of the vestiges of those Revolutionary or Civil War earthen walls and also inherit some Oakmont-style drainage ditches, right?  ;)

If so, I'll tell you, not only would it be a cool "look", it will work great functionally (drainage) and playability-wise.

Those poor people may not have much idea what a cool and historic golf course they're about to get.  ;)

What's your schedule?

BTW, those drainage ditches at Oakmont do get in your head off the tee.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2007, 08:29:11 PM by TEPaul »
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Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oakmont — c. 1939
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2007, 08:58:03 PM »
Which reminds me of a poem...

   Along at Oakmont
      Squirrels and all...

   Into the darkness
      My ball did fall...

   As we came near
      It appeared as a ditch...

   To which my caddie
      Said, "Son-of-a-[/i]______"


« Last Edit: June 10, 2007, 05:30:52 PM by Forrest Richardson »
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oakmont — c. 1939
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2007, 05:22:19 PM »
Forrest....where do you come up with this stuff?
Where would you find a poem like that?

BTW...I fail to see how gun rhymes with ditch. ;)

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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oakmont — c. 1939
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2007, 05:32:03 PM »
Yes...my error.


   Along at Oakmont
      Squirrels and all...

   Into the darkness
      My ball did fall...

   As we came near
      The lie was no fun...

   To which my caddie
      Said, "Son-of-a-[/i]______"
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oakmont — c. 1939
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2007, 06:38:54 PM »
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D .........touche! [rhymes with douche].
« Last Edit: June 10, 2007, 06:39:27 PM by paul cowley »
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca
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