Best course on which to learn to be great?

« **on:** May 22, 2007, 06:07:40 PM »

There was a recent thread about what course produced the best golfers. That got me to thinking the following, obviously impossible situation. Suppose one was faced with an 18 or 20 year old very talented golfer, and this golfer wanted one course from which to play for the next few years in between traveling for tournament play. Also, what if EVERY course in the world was available for this option and this player had no other interests for the next two years concerning the non-golfing opportunities available where that course is located.

What course would you recommend? I will add my thoughts later.

« **Reply #1 on:** May 22, 2007, 06:30:55 PM »

I can't think of any course more perfect for perfecting one's game than Augusta National. The course requires length and accuracy, great imagination around the greens and an incredible putting touch. The environment, one would think, would also reinforce the importance of etiquette.

« **Reply #2 on:** May 22, 2007, 06:36:13 PM »

Pine Valley. The club was basically founded for that purpose.

« **Reply #3 on:** May 22, 2007, 06:59:54 PM »

Define great.....

To be a great tour player and make lots of money?
To get your handicap as low as possible??
To be the best they can be personally??

« **Reply #4 on:** May 22, 2007, 07:02:20 PM »

Carnoustie... very fast greens... has the length that pine valley lacks... you have to deal with strong winds that are constantly from different angles due to the routing... even as a very good golfer you need to be able to hit a lot of accurate long irons... yet there are very good short holes to contend with you have to learn to take the bad bounces and not get disheartened. It requires accurate driving (whereas PV has huge fairways that on most holes doesn't call for a driver), accurate iron play, and good recovery skills.

While it might not develop one's stategic abilities quite as much as PV, it teaches you that golf is unfair, which is a far harder thing to truely accept.

Plus historically there can be few single courses whose everyday golfers have affected world golf more... throughout the end of the 1800s and the first half of the 20th century, 100s of locals left to become professionals at the great clubs of america, including many early US Open winners/contenders, and one Stewart Maiden, whose swing an 11 year old Bobby Jones copied at East Lake.

So my nomination would be Carnoustie - not necessarily as beautiful or great a design as many courses, but the best place to learn what golf is really about.

« **Reply #5 on:** May 22, 2007, 08:05:54 PM »

Glen Garden!

« **Reply #6 on:** May 22, 2007, 08:57:43 PM »

Are there any courses among the world's Top 50 or so that *wouldn't* be a good place to learn?

One might say Augusta because it's so out-of-whack with every other course in the world. I'd love to step onto the first tee at Lincoln Park against a guy who plays at Augusta all the time!

It's also important for a goog player's development to get way under par occasionally and get used to making birdies. A guy who plays Pine Valley all the time might never have the experience of taking it deep.

A course like Muirfield Village, Victoria National, or Blackwolf Run comes to mind - plenty of length, a little of everything, challenging greens, a few scary shots, and the occasional opportunity for an excellent player to go low.

Carnoustie fits that mold under a normal setup.

« **Reply #7 on:** May 22, 2007, 11:00:40 PM »

In dreaming up this exercise, I was thinking of wanting a course that could best develop one's game for competition. My thoughts are that the course should be very long, over 7000, but that driving accuracy should be at a premium. Secondly, the course should call for one to develop an imaginative short game. So to score well will require a variety of shots around the greens. I believe that the requirements for long and accurate driving and an imaginative short game could aid in the development of shotmaking.

I thought that St. Andrews and Augusta may not be good for developing the driver, and the U.S. Open rota may not be good for the short game (except Pinehurst).

I too thought finally, "What about Carnoustie?"

Obviously no one wants to be restricted to one course, or miss the courses I ruled out. BUT, other than 1999, if not tricked up could Carnoustie be one of the BEST overall tests in championship golf?

Carnoustie's champions include: Watson, Player, Hogan, Cotton, and Armour.

I will take Carnoustie.

I look forward to hearing why I am wrong (or right).

« **Reply #8 on:** May 22, 2007, 11:02:25 PM »

The definition of "great" has to be the ability to beat the best players in the world. Since the best players gather once a year at Augusta National and the TPC Stadium Course, those would be two good choices on which to sharpen one's game.

My other picks would be courses that routinely host Opens -- particularly TOC and Carnoustie, where Tiger, Nicklaus, Bobby Jones, Hogan, Watson, and Player won championships, and Pebble Beach and Merion, where Tiger, Nicklaus, Jones, Hogan, Watson, and Trevino won championships. Somewhere in that small group is your ideal course.

« **Reply #9 on:** May 22, 2007, 11:05:34 PM »

A course with-

A good junior program and a great teacher

Windy conditions and firm turf so you learn to compress the ball and not pick at it.

I'm thinking of wherever Ben Crenshaw and Tom Kite learned the game. Harvey Penick helped a lot.

I also read Linc Roden's book and his descriptions of junior golf at Huntingdon Valley CC are precious. The pro back then was Joe Kirkwood. They have a great history of producing really good players.

« **Reply #10 on:** May 22, 2007, 11:21:38 PM »

I personally do not think Champions is the best in the world for this. However Mr Burke has that in mind and has built the club around that concept. He takes great pride in the number of single handicap members.

« **Reply #11 on:** May 22, 2007, 11:25:12 PM »

It doesn't fit the theme of this thread, but sometimes I think its playing a variety of courses and styles that would be the most effective technique.

Wouldn't playing the same course all the time make it difficult for your game to travel?

Of the courses I've played, Wolf Run would take the cake though if I had to pick one. Anyone that plays there often would likely either get better or quit

« **Reply #12 on:** May 22, 2007, 11:34:50 PM »

Quote from: Tiger_Bernhardt on May 22, 2007, 11:21:38 PM

I personally do not think Champions is the best in the world for this. However Mr Burke has that in mind and has built the club around that concept. He takes great pride in the number of single handicap members.

.

I would agree with this as it is the competitive nature of the club that makes the players great at Champions. I think that playing with strong competition on a day to day basis will improve a player's game as much as any course they call home.

« **Reply #13 on:** May 23, 2007, 02:07:20 AM »

I have noticed that certain courses produce good players and that it is not always to do with difficulty or prestige. When I was at Howley Hall (a solid members course) back at the end of the 80's, we had over 50 members out of appr. 600 at 6 handicap or better.

Otherwise Cruden Bay, learn to deal with Adversity

« **Reply #14 on:** May 23, 2007, 08:09:13 AM »

Bill, glad you agree on carnoustie

Someone else mentioned a good junior section... I know the idea of this thread is that there is no problem in accessing any course, but just thought I'd say that there aren't many courses where a junior golfer can pay 100 pounds (200 dollars) and play a great major championship golf course every day for a year... Carnoustie continues to develop great golfers, and it's not surprising since every guy in the town pretty much grows up playing the course.

« **Reply #15 on:** May 23, 2007, 08:19:03 AM »

I'd reiterate what Tom Dunne said in post #2.

This is one of the two primary reasons the course was created and designed as it was. It was supposed to be a training ground for Philadelphia's best players to get better and be more successful on the National tournament scene.

Matter of fact, back in the teens one of the members offered to give the club $5,000 if one of PV's members could make the US Amateur that year.

By the way, one of Pine Valley's most significant, participatory and opinionted members of the Committee to finish off the golf course was Oakmont's W.C. Fownes---arguably the other American course that was designed to be a super, ultra test of the elite player.

« **Reply #16 on:** May 23, 2007, 08:30:35 AM »

Just my opinion, but the environment is more important than the course...

Considering the question was "which course...?" I would suggest a course that could be scored well on with good play. Ultra difficulty will create a certain type of player, but difficult with some soft spots will enable the young player to learn how to play the tough holes as well as make a bunch of birdies...which is the most important thing in winning golf tournaments...

Dr. Childs, HVCC has had a very long history of producing good players, I would credit that more to the environment than the course. They have always been very supportive of young players...

« **Reply #17 on:** May 23, 2007, 08:44:51 AM »

In the US, how many tour level players grew up on top 100 courses? Top level courses should be a great advantage. However, the heart of the juniors and the quality of teaching is much more important. In SoCal, LaJolla and Rancho Santa Fe have a history of great juniors. For these clubs, the ability to play uninhibited by stupid anti-junior rules had a lot to do with the success.

« **Reply #18 on:** May 23, 2007, 09:52:41 AM »

Quote from: JES II on May 23, 2007, 08:30:35 AM

Just my opinion, but the environment is more important than the course...

Dr. Childs, HVCC has had a very long history of producing good players, I would credit that more to the environment than the course. They have always been very supportive of young players...

JES - I totally agree with you. That's why I mentioned jr. programs, a great teacher and conditions of play (more then the course itself). Linc's book describes so well all of the tournament competition at HVCC with several of his companions making USGA Jr. AM's and AM's. I realize that culture continues.

« **Reply #19 on:** May 23, 2007, 09:54:21 AM »

In the late 70's we had 5 junior players qualify for match play in the Philadelphia Amateur...36 holes for 32 spots...pretty strong testament to the story Linc tells...

« **Reply #20 on:** May 23, 2007, 10:00:34 AM »

Shinnecock will be my answer going forward, regardless of the question.

Mike

« **Reply #21 on:** May 23, 2007, 10:17:20 AM »

What course did Tiger learn to play on?

I'd think the environment, especially the competitive environment, would have to be the main factor. Knowing how to beat the snot out of everybody you meet from a young age is far more valuable than regular access to a course meeting some real or imagined list of architectural attributes.

« **Reply #22 on:** May 23, 2007, 10:31:59 AM »

How many Carnoustie born and bred players are the tops in amateur or professional golf?

Bob

« **Reply #23 on:** May 23, 2007, 11:02:03 AM »

I believe you ahve to look no further than Merion or Pine Valley.
I know that if I had grown up on those two courses, I would be a much better all around player than I am.
They have everything...those who think they are inadequate in the length department are misled...they both have plenty of holes where length is required if not demanded...the two best"tough" courses in the world..as far as I am concerned.

« **Reply #24 on:** May 23, 2007, 11:05:19 AM »

I don't think any such animal exists. People beget greatness.

Ciao

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