[Dan Kelly]

When I reached these shores a US Postal Stamp was 5 cents, I think it is up to 41 cents now.

Million dollar idea: The FOREVER green fee.

[David Kelly]

When I reached these shores a US Postal Stamp was 5 cents, I think it is up to 41 cents now.

Million dollar idea: The FOREVER green fee.

Sure, write a check for $5500.00 to Pebble Beach and they will give you 10 green fee vouchers that can be used any time in the future.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Inflation has only averaged 4.7% from 1967-2006 but nominal GDP growth has been 7.3% so the growth in green fees has been about equivalent to the growth of the wealth of the country.

A lot of that 7.3% figure comes from a population that is 50% bigger.  Nominal wealth per capita -- which seems to me a better measure -- has grown a lot less.  Pebble's prices have greatly outpaced wealth per capita.  

Not that much less.  Nominal GDP per capita has increased at 6.2% per annum over the last 40 years.  That is 11 times when compounded over 40 years so that would take a $20 green fee to $220.  Population growth will also cause an increase in demand as there are more golfers - even if wealth didn't grow over 40 years there would be more demand due to the increased number of golfers wanting to play.

But as a capitalist I believe that the best price for Pebble is the price that would keep the course full where the groups are properly spaced - which would likely be tee times every 10-12 minutes.  If demand continues to outstrip supply then raise the price.  

[Jay Flemma]

This isn't Russia, is it Jay? No, this isn't Russia.

Touche Rick...but I believe it...

Tom Huckaby, here are the ones I like better than Pebble.

Pacific Dunes
Tobacco Road
Black Mesa
Ocean Course at Kiawah

[RJ_Daley]

When I reached these shores a US Postal Stamp was 5 cents, I think it is up to 41 cents now....

Bob, that is only 8X the cost.  Those numbers would put PBGL at about $180, right?

But, to my knowledge, PBGL was never a publicly subsidized enterprise.  Only Pac Grove.    What was Pac Groves green fee in 1965 and now compared to PBGL, anyways?

Maybe not on the same order of importance or magnitude, but... said green fees seem to me like gas prices and medical cost issues.  It is what the market will bear.  But, is it good for us, and fair?  Is it good for the game of golf or life?  For how many?  Are the numbers it is good for dwindling on all counts, golf and life?

Your post office analogy is appropos as the government overseer of the mail service has kept the cost to .41.  Now, the issue is -coincidentally for me as I observed our new mailperson letter carrier just two days ago... not a uniformed proper acting and presentable letter carrier agent of the U.S. government, but a sloppy looking fellow who showed up at my front door mail box wearing a set of cut off bluejeans, baseball hat on backwards, groomed to look like a crackhead.  I had thought of shooting him as he hit the front steps until I realised HE WAS CARRYING THE U.S. MAIL!!!    Apparently this new age letter hump is the neo-neocons answer to outsourcing and bypassing union postal workers and their uniformity and standards of character.  God save us if the .41 cent stamp is comparable to the $500 round at PBGL.  

Say what you like about the past ugliness of "going postal" and such.  We have among the greatest letter carriers in the world and I trust them at my door.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jay:

Fair enough.  But to say any of those are "much better" than Pebble Beach is a stretch of Olympic gymnast proportions.  But to each his own.  

No answer regarding how golf should be egalitarian?

TH

[Tom Yost]

Although I could certainly afford the round at Pebble, not sure I could justify it in terms of value.  

The way I see it, $500 would be better spent as a downpayment on my true lifelong golf dream of a trip to Scotland.

Tom

[Jay Flemma]

I'm sorry huck, I must have missed the Q...lemme go look...OK I'm back.  No its not a fantasy!  Look at Strantz...he built plenty of great cheap courses!  Doak gave us two inexpensive excellent designs.  And if you got to PD in late Feb and catch weather, you robbed the place blind for $120 for 36 holes.

We must fight for inexp[ensive golf wherever and however we can...as though American society and hegemony were at stake.

BTW->  Sometimes I think I like Sawgrass better too...

[Tom Huckaby]

Jay - read the replies since you made that statement - several of us took you to task for this.  You have some 'splainin to do, Lucy.

And before we go too far on how all of these courses are so much better than Pebble Beach, may I ask:  have you played it without crowds?

If so, and you can still say those courses are "much" better, than we are on different golf planets.

 

[Kalen Braley]

Its difficult to make an argument against Pebble charging the prices they can get.  Even though you might not like them, if they can get them and keep thier tee sheets full then I don't see the dilemma.  Its not like its a utility company charging people massive amounts to keep thier heat on.  Its golf,(and I know some might crucify me for this), its not a necessity!!

As for myself, I don't understand people paying the same price to go see a NFL game.  You just sit there and watch, and then its over.  At least in golf you get to take center-stage with the attraction and be involved in the action.  In football, your just spectating.

At then of the day, if its personally worth it to you, then you'll pay the money. If not you won't.  To me its no different than those who buy those $5000 bottles of cognac down at your high end grocery.  Its not worth it to me, but I guess its worth it to someone.

[Jay Flemma]

Ted and Bob...yes that bloody well is my position.  I refuse to budge.

No golf course...none...period...has any business charging over $200.

$200...for four hours on the golf course...that's prohibitively expensive to the rank and file player.  Alot of people on this list are very wealthy...but most people are not.  Two bills is alot of scratch to Fred Smith the local county attorney who loves golf...or the local grocery clerk who loves golf...or the schoolteacher who wants to play with his secretary girlfriend.  Why should they be prohibited from playing great designs because they aren't blessed with gobs of liquid cash?

This game started with ordinary chumps and lunkheads like many of us (me included) whacking balls with the equivalent of tire irons over the backyard beach. It's manure that golf should cost half a months rent or more!  Or should cost as much as a monthly car payment...or the mortgage.  This is a game playable by everyone from 3 to 103.  Are you saying the poorer among us shoulod eat hardtack and swill for golf while those more privileged eat steak au poivre...thats what private clubs are for.  Shoot...even though I loved my round at [name of super good private club deleted] the $375 felt like too much and was as much of a sting.

For the $550 they charge for PB I could get:

two dinners for two at the glitziest NYC restaurant, tickets for four to a Broadway show, or tickets for a family of six to a major league baseball game (or tix form two to a three game series).

And as for my golf planet, come on in the water's fine and it's a good neighborhood!

[RJ_Daley]

Huck, now please don't take this the wrong way.    Maybe I am way off the mark.  But, I think I get the sense that you played PBGL several times.  Would you declare how many times, and at what green fees, you paid - from your personal pocket?  Have you gotten freebies there?

I played Whistling Straits twice.  I got the first one for free as a customer of a guy at ML.  The next time I paid full freight out of my pocket, at the time about 240+caddie and tip = about 340.  I said to myself, self... that was a stupid exercise in self indulgence and got nothing more of a GCA edumacation from it.  I got much more GCA understanding of WS from attending three rounds of the PGA there.  I suspect I'd feel the same way about PBGL.

Frankly, I'm for Jay's sentiment, plus my own... just say no... until the price comes down to rational levels.  Or, let those that have a different standard of value have it...

[Joe Hancock]

No golf course...none...period...has any business charging over $200.

Actually quite a few have plenty of business at $200.

I disagree with your premise. Golf is a privilege, luxury and recreation that you pay for, and where you play is dictated in large part by price. If all courses were priced similarly, the lesser designed and maintained courses would be gone. Then, no one has any cheap place to learn the game....I'm sure there are a lot of other dynamics involved here as well.

As much as I'm disappointed that PB charges what they do, they certainly have the right and the business to do it.

Joe

[Tom Huckaby]

RJD:

I've been very lucky NEVER to pay full freight at PB, and yes I have played it quite a few times.

But you see, that's why I also know it would be worth it to pay top dollar for... for me anyway... because I know how great it is.  Had I never played it, hell yes I'd pay to do so now.  To me it is that great.  And although the price is outrageous, so long as it's within one's comfort threshold where he isn't thinking on each tee "this better be worth it, it's $25 per hole", then I think it's worth the splurge.  If one is thinking that way, then of course it's not.

Just to clarify something else also - I do not play this game for architectural education.  That's about #55 on the 56 reasons why I play.  So perhaps take this for what it's worth, which might not be much.

 

[Scott Coan]

I suppose we should all be thankful that we have the option of forking out the cash and playing Pebble.  Ueberoth & Co. could easily take it private and the likes of us would never be able to play it.

What could Augusta National or Pine Valley charge if they decided to open themselves up for public play for a few weeks per year?

What could Pebble charge if we were all told that 2007 would be the last year of public play and that forevermore access would be limited to the 100 or so members and their very lucky guests?

[Rick Shefchik]

For the $550 they charge for PB I could get:

two dinners for two at the glitziest NYC restaurant, tickets for four to a Broadway show, or tickets for a family of six to a major league baseball game (or tix form two to a three game series).

Jay, in all seriousness, if you offered me that package -- nice NY dinner and great seats to a Broadway Show or a MLB game -- or one greens fee at Pebble Beach, I'd take PB, and I wouldn't have to think twice about it.

What makes those bastards think they can charge that much for dinner and a ballgame?

[Jay Flemma]

No golf course...none...period...has any business charging over $200.

Actually quite a few have plenty of business at $200.

I disagree with your premise. Golf is a privilege, luxury and recreation that you pay for, and where you play is dictated in large part by price. If all courses were priced similarly, the lesser designed and maintained courses would be gone. Then, no one has any cheap place to learn the game....I'm sure there are a lot of other dynamics involved here as well.

As much as I'm disappointed that PB charges what they do, they certainly have the right and the business to do it.

Joe

Joe, we gotta agree to disagree...golf to me is most certainly not a privilege.  It is a blessing...one that fosters peace, harmony, good will, comradery, solace, exercise and healing regardless of race, religion, size, and monetary position.  Maybe...maybe I could be made to say $225...but anything else is gouging.

Rick, with the cutie I'm seeing, I'll pass on Pebble, go to dinner with her and then when I wake up the next morning, I'll kiss her goodbye and be on the Black for $50.  AND I'LL STILL HAVE some scratch in my pocket to get the girl flowers and chocolate truffles.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jay:

Your planet must be a fun one, given it's based in fantasy.

Because you see, I don't disagree that it would be wonderful if no golf course cost more than $200.  That would certainly make a lot more things doable for a guy like me.  Bring it on.

I just see that as having as much reality as me shooting 18 in my next round... and I don't mean stopping after 4 holes.

And I still am chuckling at the four courses you listed as MUCH better than Pebble Beach.  You also didn't answer my question regarding your play at Pebble.  But no matter... it's obvious you have a lot of Quixote in you, and we do need that.

So tilt away, my friend!  Just watch for the whirling windmill blades!

 

[David Kelly]

Why should they be prohibited from playing great designs because they aren't blessed with gobs of liquid cash?

For that matter why should I be prohibited from being able to buy a Ferrari for $20K or a bottle of Screaming Eagle Cab for $14.95?

[Jay Flemma]

Don't you worry about me Huck, but never underestimate me.  plenty have...then wondered how the hell I came back with the Gorgon's head when they thought I went for the windmill.  To quote Pulp Fiction..."that's how you beat 'em Butch.  They keep underestimating you."

Look, we have to do what we can to keep prices down and fight for it.  WHATEVER IS LEARNED CAN BE UNLEARNED.  

Fine...Pebble will never come down...but bandon can stay reasonable in shoulder season...other great courses can make sure twilight rates are in effect for more than just 4 hours.  New courses can open for $60.  Huck, you always crow about Rustic...well lets build more like it.

And as for the courses I like more than Pebble and think are better values...that's why they make chocolate ice cream...and tutti-frutti...and pistachio.

That's my story and I'll take y'all on one at a time or in a bunch to back it up

[Tom Huckaby]

Jay:

I am right with you in a desire to keep prices down.  I'm backing you all the way.

But that's an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT point than saying "no golf course should cost more than $200."

The stuff you just stated - about great affordable golf courses - is happening, little by little.

The other part will NEVER HAPPEN.  And it's silly to think it will, or to waste one second campaigning for it.

And I do worry about you if you truly believe Black Mesa is "much better" than Pebble Beach.... and I choose that one because you hopefully know I am a HUGE fan of Black Mesa.  I just also don't live in the fantasy worlds you seem to inhabit.

Play Pebble Beach some time first group off, no waiting, three hours.  Then tell me Black Mesa is a MUCH better course.

This goes beyond flavors of ice cream... this is making up preferences in an effort to prove a separate point.  I'd say it's Muccian, but I believe I've insulted you enough as it is.

 

TH

[RJ_Daley]

Jay, I got your back bro...  

I just really do think that the "just say no" policy will straighten this all right out to a rational level, and in no time at all.  Perhaps a year of public golfers just saying no to anything over $200.

If you continue, you folks that advocate and think that the once in a lifetime experience is still fair dinkum at $500, you will get your chance to say no in the future, to maybe 600 or 750 or 1000, because that is what that mentality breeds.  I believe that the conspicuous consumers will all get their just desserts, even Hammy Hearst will finally get to the point he says, no.

If they want to charge $500K for a membership at Liberty Nat, or CPC or ANGC, fine.  That isn't really a consumer situation on a public market basis.  If they want to take PBGL private and charge that kind of freight for a membership, fine.  Caveat Emptor.  Then, maybe all the guys that have the ping to join, will drive the owners nuts on green committees or some other way to express themselves and their golf design and maintenance accumen.  

Things come around and go around.  I wouldn't be surprised if in the next century, the long gone and dead current syndicate of investor owners of the PB golf company will leave it to heirs that will ultimately donate it back to the public in some sort of grant donation foundation thingy.  Of course, I doubt anyone on this forum will be alive when that happens, either...  

[Kalen Braley]

Jay,

I dig where you are going on this one, I really do.  But this would only be an outrage if all courses were $200 or more.  Golfers have all kinds of options available to them at much cheaper prices. Here in Utah I can play many good courses for under $40, the majority of those for under $30.

My analogy to this is:  When I travel, nothing tells me I have to stay at the Embassy Suites, I can choose Motel 6 if I like as well.  Sure if work is paying, sign me up for the nice pricey hotel if its in the allowed budget, but if its my own cash, then its probably a different story.

I don't think there are any expected or otherwise implied rights for every golfer to be able to play Pebble Beach.  Furthermore I think your $200 number is fairly arbitrary.  In most countries through out the world, $200 American Dollars is what many make in a year and would never even conceive or dream paying $30 of that to play a muni, much less all of it to play Pebble.

[redanman]

Personally I'll add gasoline to the fire to say that


-Pebble Beach is not a once-in-a-lifetime experience in my book
-It is shameful to charge that much for a round of golf, even if the traffic will bear it
-That so much "Business golf" is played at PBGL is a national disgrace for the USA
-Pebble Beach GL as it currently exists is bad for golf in general, the once Scottish ideal of a simple pastime for everyone - played near the sea; all of the golf courses in Scotland are less money to play than the poseur PBG(NOT!)L

(Yeah, I do have some  socialist tendencies - so send Paulie after me )

[Kalen Braley]

Personally I'll add gasoline to the fire to say that


-Pebble Beach is not a once-in-a-lifetime experience in my book
-It is shameful to charge that much for a round of golf, even if the traffic will bear it
-That so much "Business golf" is played at PBGL is a national disgrace for the USA
-Pebble Beach GL as it currently exists is bad for golf in general, the once Scottish ideal of a simple pastime for everyone - played near the sea; all of the golf courses in Scotland are less money to play than the poseur PBG(NOT!)L

(Yeah, I do have some  socialist tendencies - so send Paulie after me )

If Pebble be held to this, that is fine...

But where is the scottish ideal when it comes to the home of golf, the grand-daddy of them all, TOC.  Last time I checked it was almost $300 American to play that course.  Where are the ideals and socialism in that??

If PBGL is the national disgrace for USA, then TOC is the equivilant for Scotland.

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