[Bob_Huntley]

With Butch in the ascendancy, will Hank get the chop?

Bob

[Rick Shefchik]

Bob,

I think all these guys teach something relatively similar. Their fame and success rely primarily on their personal relationships to great players, and whether or not those players are having great years.

Butch looked great when he had Tiger in 2000, then had a few fallow years. Now he's Phil's guy -- and will look great until Phil slumps again.

As long as Tiger wins a major or two a year and is satisfied with using Hank as a sounding board, Hank will be fine. If Tiger ever does toss him overboard, he could hook on with Ernie, resurrect his career and become a genius again.

[Andy Hodson]

Tiger will never go back to Butch. Too much pride at play there.

But, he should go back. His swing was better suited to win majors more easily then.

This will get very interesting when Tiger gets shut out in majors this year, which I predict will happen; primarily because of the venues (Oakmont, Carnoustie, and Southern Hills). And if Mickelson starts driving the ball anywhere close to the way Butch wants him to, he will win at least one of the remaining majors.

The thing about Butch is he knows deep down what it takes to win majors, and has the personality to stand toe to toe with the best in the game and tell them that. Mickelson knows that ... it has taken him this long to reach out for that tough love. And watch out now, we may finally have the rivalry golf has needed for some time.

[Phil Benedict]

I just read an article about Phil's switch to Butch in one of the golf blogs.  There were several comments from players that Butch is by far the best swing coach among the guys plying their trade around the Tour.  Obviously these comments are subjective, but I was a little surprised since I've always assumed the swing coaches are pretty much interchangeable.

Hank could be in jeopardy if Tiger doesn't win any majors this year.

[Jim Bearden]

The thing I noticed about Tigers new swing is that is now similar to a great player of the past. Who do you think that is?

[redanman]

Do we really think that these professionals are any different than the rank and file member?  Take a lesson, get a fix and play well for a while, that's golf.  I've been to a Butch clinic - he's good and very inspirational, but so are about 500 guys. You would think that Dave Pelz with his short game "Magic" would have Phil on top of the world by now.

Pfffffft! Mickleson (and Els, maybe even more) need their heads fixed more than anything else.

We all (from the foozle king to Tiger Woods) need:

A Psychiatrist
A Mathematician
A Biomechanist
A Physiatrist

more than a teacher, and certainly in that order.

[Andy Hughes]

You would think that Dave Pelz with his short game "Magic" would have Phil on top of the world by now.

redanman, you would think it, and not be far off.  The only guy ahead of him is some otherworldly once-a-century freak, and with 30 odd wins and 3 majors its not been a shoddy career to date.

[redanman]

Andy

Phil's failure rate is from his brain, not his short game, he comes and goes rather than comes and stays.  I followed him at Cherry Hills in 1990 and thought he was the "Next Nicklaus", then he went to Yonex and switched to their stupid fibreglass-shafted putter and waffled for about 10 years.  Do the math, 10 years of waffling is bad for the psyche, even if the pocketbook is overflowing.  

[Andy Hughes]

bv, no doubt his psyche is likely a little more, how should we say, fragile than other top players, and likely he tosses away some he perhaps should win. All true.  

But in spite of the fallow years, he has one more career win than Leo Diegel, and what more could anyone ask for?  
On a serious note, he has more PGA wins than Trevino, Player, Miller and Floyd, and as many as Weiskopf and Bolt put together.  In 2 or 3 years he might catch both Watson and Sarazen.  If he is not considered top of the world, it is only because the rightful current occupant is silly-good

[rboyce]

Tiger's new swing = Byron Nelson imho.

i agree with those who say Tiger's old swing was more reliable. but, i also agree with those who say the old swing may have been putting too much strain on his body. the new swing seems more comfortable for him.

[Greg Holland]

I'm by no means a swing guru, but did you guys actually notice a difference in Phil's swing?  On Saturday when I watched, Johnny Miller was saying it was much tighter, then went to the telestrator and said Phil went way past parallel in his old swing, but now doesn't with the new swing.  He drew a line at parallel, Phil took a swing and went way past the line Johnny drew at parallel -- not as far as Daly mind you, but still way past parallel even though Johnny said he didn't.  I guess maybe his legs looked a little quieter, but I didn't see much different.  Tell me what I missed please.

Also, Rick Smith has said that for years he has been trying to get Phil to shorten the swing and use the power fade that won him 3 majors.  But now Butch is a genius?

Finally, it looked like he was hitting big slices and not power fades to me.  Anyone else see that?

[AndrewB]

The thing about Butch is he knows deep down what it takes to win majors, and has the personality to stand toe to toe with the best in the game and tell them that.

Last I checked, Butch had won zero majors and Tiger had won 12.  I'd say Tiger is the one who knows what it takes to win majors.

[Noel Freeman]

I take lessons with Mike Hebron who is now an iconoclast in his field.  He was one of the first Master Professionals and completely changed his teaching style in the last 10+ years.  A lesson with Mike is not about drills or manipulating the club etc, he's into teaching yourself, coaching yourself and using your sensory motor system in order to learn.  He's a big advocate of how the brain learns rather than teaching the swing thru any system.  I've played with many people here and some have seen me really on and some have seen me off.. When I go off and see Mike he has me use my imagination to figure out how to hit shots again and then subtlely works with swing cues.

Regardless, he is extremely well known in teaching circles and knows all the major players (Hank, Butch, Mclean etc).. Mike's view is that the pros are the geniuses and the swing gurus are simply mechanics.  They tune up Ferraris in his views and get all the credit when the genius is in the player.  Some may view this as sour grapes because Mike does not coach any top players.. Mike has a tremendous amount of respect for Butch and Haney but when I asked him what he would say to Tiger if he ever solicited his advice, his response shocked me.. He told me he would tell Tiger to go back to his original swing as a junior before he took up with Butch.  He reasoned that the only time we see Tiger's inherent genius is in his short game which is the same as it was in his creative youth.  It is a testament to Tiger he said that he's changed his swing twice and still keeps on winning but the results would be the same if he kept his original swing and finetuned it.

Regardless, without putting words into his mouth, Mike would say Phil will win with or in spite of Butch Harmon, it could simply be the placebo effect, the genius is already in Phil.

One little fun fact, Mike used to caddy as a kid at Alister Mackenzie's Bayside.  He has a terrific memory of it and may be one of the only people around who has a link to this lost course.

[redanman]

If he is not considered top of the world, it is only because the rightful current occupant is silly-good

But, but, but I called him the next Nicklaus in 1990 and I've never been wrong yet!

Oh, bother.

[Andy Hughes]

bv, but you never said which Nicklaus. So I'd say your prognostications are still right on the money!

[cary lichtenstein]

I took lessons from Haney for 3 years and never go better, never won a major or a club championship under him.

I watching Tiger's swing under Butch and Hank, I would have to say that Butch teaches a more conventional looking seing and finish.

Tiger will not go back to Butch, but perhaos he should.

[Dan_Callahan]

Tiger's old swing (but not old, old) was maybe the best ever. Watching the reruns on the Golf Channel from his win at Pebble, he is so controlled in with his driver. His misses seem to be the exception, although I don't know if the stats reflect that.

To go more OT, has anyone been following the new swing that Golf Digest is promoting? It's all over their website and is counter to the techniques that have been popular recently. This swing (backed by Aaron Baddely) leaves most of the weight on the left side (for a righty), a lean forward in the backswing braced by a straight right leg and bent left leg, and then a stacked finish (standing straight up) at impact.

How long before Tiger gives this one a shot? I'll bet he could win with it . . .

[Phil Benedict]

Dan,

I read the article but I just didn't get it, like so many other instructional articles I've read in the sense that it wasn't clear to me why the body positions advocated in the article result in a more dependable club face position at impact.  

[David Stamm]

If I remember correctly, Tiger stated in the past that one of the reasons that he left Butch was because he was not physically able to swing that way any more. Remember that knee injury that required surgery? I believe he said that was partially due to the fact that his swing under Harmon put alot of pressure on that knee, and he made the move for longevity. Now whether that was a thin veil for the real reason for leaving, only he knows.

[George Pazin]

If I remember correctly, Tiger stated in the past that one of the reasons that he left Butch was because he was not physically able to swing that way any more. Remember that knee injury that required surgery? I believe he said that was partially due to the fact that his swing under Harmon put alot of pressure on that knee, and he made the move for longevity. Now whether that was a thin veil for the real reason for leaving, only he knows.

Others have posited the same, yet it's really hard for me to imagine the ultra-hard swings he takes now are any easier on his knee. He seemed so much more under control in '99-'01.

The interesting thing to me is how, when Phil plays his best, he plays much more Tiger-like: control over power, fewer big numbers, more 3/4 controlled iron swings, etc. This didn't really change with the move to Butch, it was there in his 05 PGA win and 06 Masters win.

Tiger seems to have his most success when he resurrects this approach, as he did last year at Hoylake. Yet he seems to yearn to get away from it, bombing the ball and relying on his short game to carry him to victory, as it so often does.

I decided recently that Hank Haney heard that old story about Jack Grout and Nicklaus ("He couldn't have stopped Nicklaus from winning 18 majors") and thought it was a really interesting experiment he'd like to try out.

 

Re: the Golf Digest Swing Whisperers, I find it ironic that, in the article they claim the old guys said one thing and did another, and yet they quite clearly do the same thing, right within the article.

Redanman's right, psychiatrists are #1 on the hit parade.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I am having trouble understanding what all the fuss is about. Why would anyone try to give a swing coach or whatever the title anything more than minimal credit for a pro golfers success. the fact the networks are doing it does not mean we should go with the flow.

[Andy Hodson]

There is no doubt that the real talent lies with the players. Mickelson would still be a wonderful player if he never had a swing guru while on tour. And we would still be talking about a kid named Eldrick if he never went to Butch as a teenager.

But this is not about talent or no talent; whether the  teacher or player gets the credit. All these guys are talented. What player and teacher are working towards is crossing that fine line, that sliver of a difference, that means winning or losing. And a big part of that is the psychology that a good teacher provides. Its that other voice, the other pair of eyes, the reassuring feedback, the gentle (or not so gentle) redirection towards the goal.

I know its satisfying to say that the players of yore had no swing guru, no head doctor, no trainer, no posse of any kind. I think the better point is, that if those were available, they would have used them. And they would be better players for it.

So, the teachers don't provide the talent; they, hopefully, get the player to fully realize the possibility their talent provides. Butch might just be the best one out there. Watch what he does with Phil.

[Ted Kramer]

The biggest difference in Phil's new swing will be his left leg (back leg) at the top of his swing. He will, I think, continue to work on keeping some flex in that leg at the top of his swing. He used to get that leg very straight, that can make for a tough transition and a bit of hang-back move that can result in BIG BLOCKS. If any of you guys are interested in swing mechanics, keep an eye on his back leg throughout the year . . .

-Ted

[Phil Benedict]

One of my pet theories, which unfortunately cannot be verified, is that swing coaches and video (along with his superior work ethic) are among the reasons Tiger is almost always in contention.  Without access to a coach and video Tiger would be more likely to fall into a pattern of poor ball-striking because it would be harder to diagnose the problem.  The same thing applies to Phil but I doubt that his work ethic is equal to Tiger's nor is his talent.  

[RJ_Daley]

Who are the greatest players never to have studied with a swing coach?

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