Where Does Pete Dye Rank Among Architects?

[Phil Benedict]

With the Players approaching I am interested in what GCA'ers think about Pete Dye.  Personally I find him a bit gimmicky and over-reliant on water features but I've only played four of his courses (TPC - Sawgrass, PGA West Stadium, Harbour Town and the La Quinta Mountain).  TPC - Sawgrass is a great tournament course.

Does he belong at the same level as the guys from the Golden Age?

With the new drainage system Sawgrass is now supposed to play the way Dye originally intended it.

[PThomas]

I think he is one of the greatest ever

his Harbour Town course changed the face of golf design

his island green at TPC, like it or not, is certainly one of the most memorable holes anywhere

so many quality designs:  C Stick, TGC, W Straits, etc, etc...

and so many other designers got their starts with him too

[Matt_Ward]

Phil:

Hard to compare different people from different eras -- sort of like the baseball issue many people find when discussing the all-time greats.

Suffice to say -- among modern designers -- let's just say from 1960 forward the influence of Pete Dye is significant. Dye introduced -- or likely re-introduced a return to the elements found on so many courses over seas. If memory serves, no less than Dye himself actually went the opposite way of what Robert Trent Jones was doing in order to create his own "brand" identity.

His early works -- Harbour Town, The Golf Club (I rate it the best one I've played), Teeth of the Dog, TPC / Sawgrass, The Ocean Course / Kiawah, Whistling Straits / Straits, Pete Dye GC, et al, clearly brought forward a style at times equally controversial and also edgy. Like the NY Yankees -- Pete Dye brought forward a clear "up" or "down" sentiment -- playing a Pete Dye course always caused a reaction among players and although his later work often times was inconsistent his overall standing is there to be seen. In many ways Dye was the trailblazer for what others are doing today -- namely Doak and a few others as well. Just look at the names of people who formerly worked with and what they each contributed.

In my mind, easily among the ten best architects of all time and at the top of the list among practicing architects for the period between 1960 and 2000.

[Peter_Herreid]

You will do yourself a disservice by not waiting until after you have experienced some of Pete Dye's earliest work (albeit much of it is private, sometimes very, very private) before attempting to judge his work or place it in any historical context.

While I agree (to some extent) that much of his work in the late 80's to mid-90's particularly has that "steroidal" look and feel to it, understand that these are by and large resort-type courses.  Don't underestimate the need for a "Wow!" factor when trying to sell such a course/resort to the paying public.

In my opinion, Harbour Town doesn't really fall into line with the other Pete Dye courses you have played, in that it was a ground-breaking course in the late 60's/early 70's (whatever the exact time frame was) because of its reliance on angles, placement and not so much on brute strength/length.  Some of his later resort work perhaps has taken those reliances to the extremes, which may have left you feeling that they are "gimmicky".  Whistling Straits may be the pinnacle for this style of later Pete Dye course...

I have recently been fortunate to play a couple of his very earliest course (mid 60's), one of which is profiled here, and his fondness for and influence by the Golden Age architects/architecture is very much more in evidence.  The "soul" of the Golden Age greats is very noticeable, and the manufactured look is much less obvious.

While I don't love every PD course I have played, and would agree especially that many built since 1995 or so on seem pretty overblown, I think Pete Dye deserves admiration and respect from all GCA-lovers for bringing a late 20th century sensibility to the principles of early 20th century Golden Age GCArchitecture...

[Mark Bourgeois]

He did the best GCA.com "Feature Interview" ever. Not Colt, Macdonald, nor MacKenzie could have topped it.

[Phil Benedict]

Matt,

There really isn't another architect who has such a polarizing effect is there?

I forgot that I played the Irish Course at Kohler as well.  Didn't care for it.

[Tim Pitner]

You will do yourself a disservice by not waiting until after you have experienced some of Pete Dye's earliest work (albeit much of it is private, sometimes very, very private) before attempting to judge his work or place it in any historical context.

Such as?

[Peter_Herreid]

I would put Harbour Town, The Golf Club and Crooked Stick in that earlier clump, off the top of my head...

Stylistically, The Honors Course, Kingsmill-River, Des Moines GCC and perhaps even the River Course at Blackwolf Run and maybe Oak Tree might be similar to that earlier grouping...

I might put the La Quinta courses, Whistling Straights, Sawgrass, Mission Hills, Pete Dye GC in the later more steroidal clump (but I'm thinking quickly here...)

I have always felt that Brickyard Crossing is one of the most fascinating golf course settings I have ever seen.  The course is not necessarily one of the best I have ever played, but I happened to catch it in early May one year, on a weekday, as some of the early preparations for the Indy 500 were going on.  There is something prototypically American about being there, in the middle of a urban neighborhood with houses of various types, power lines, buildings, a cheap-looking motel, etc... and then the racetrack looming over and around you...It was as much a perfect cohesion and manifestation of place and course as any you might find in Scotland, Bandon or Long Island....Again, not the greatest course, but I always admired that project...

[TEPaul]

In my opinion, Pete definitely should rank in the top half dozen architects of all time.

Personally, I've never been all that in love with the look of his architecture but I think Pete deserves to be in that top half dozen of all time because Pete single handledly created something of an architectural "era" inside what some of us call the larger "Modern Age" of golf design.

In my opinion, in effecting the evolution of golf course architecture at the particular time he did and in the way he did, Pete Dye was more significant than most realize, and he therefore deserves to be in the top half dozen most significant architects ever.

[Kalen Braley]

With the recent threads about the Hall of Fame, what case can be made that he belongs there as well as a few other notables who are missing?

Is he good enough now to be in?  I think he's pretty darn close if he hasn't already shown that he belongs.

[Mark Bourgeois]

If you could measure "influence," (changing the direction of design, mentoring a generation of leaders in the field, etc.) who would come second after Pete Dye?

Also, although possibly damning with faint praise, is Dye the leading resort architect of all time (so far)?

[tlavin]

In my opinion, Pete definitely should rank in the top half dozen architects of all time.

Personally, I've never been all that in love with the look of his architecture but I think Pete deserves to be in that top half dozen of all time because Pete single handledly created something of an architectural "era" inside what some of us call the larger "Modern Age" of golf design.

In my opinion, in effecting the evolution of golf course architecture at the particular time he did and in the way he did, Pete Dye was more significant than most realize, and he therefore deserves to be in the top half dozen most significant architects ever.

I second that emotion.

[Chris Cupit]

I'll second the second!

While PD may not be a "favorite" he is certainly one of the most important architects ever.  Certainly delivered us from the banality of "modern" design.  

Definitely the key transitional architect of the second half of the 20th century--that's pretty good.

[Andy Troeger]

It might depend on which courses of his you've had the chance to play.

The Golf Club, Blackwolf Run-River, Harbour Town, Long Cove, Crooked Stick, and Whistling Straits are all pretty special. TGC is my favorite course that I have played.

I agree that the Irish was not my cup of tea.

[Andy Ryall]

If you could measure "influence," (changing the direction of design, mentoring a generation of leaders in the field, etc.) who would come second after Pete Dye?

Also, although possibly damning with faint praise, is Dye the leading resort architect of all time (so far)?

I would have to think that the Coore/Crenshaw team and/or Doak would certainly command attention in terms of modern course architecture.   The interesting part is that the full impact of their contributions on other designers may not fully be understood for another 25 years.  

[Phil Benedict]

Not that it's necessarily relevent, but there is a lot more championship level golf played on Dye courses than on Doak or Coore/Crenshaw courses.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Andy, not necessarily disagreeing, but how about this:
Doak interned for Dye
Coore spent a lot of time in Dye's personal library when he dog sat for him!

Mark

[Gary Slatter]

IMHO because of his variety and influence I consider him 1st in the 1970 to 2000 era.  He has courses for the Tour and for the rest of us.  

I remember before the Ocean Course opened at Kiawah, we had an IBM group play in June, with Fred Couples, and after the "experience" Pete Dye spoke (answered questions) to the group.  When asked how anyone could ever maintain the course, his answer was "Mexicans, lots of them".

OT: This was during the period when Fred gave up golf for a couple of months, he liked the course and borrowed some Lynx clubs from Bobby Wilson so he could play. He ended up signing with Lynx.

As a resort designer I think he's in the top 5, but most resort players (and meeting planners) dye for the Nicklaus Weiskopf Norman Jones names.  His Kiawah and Casa de Campo are great but he doesn't have the numbers, maybe due to his  wanting to see every project before opening day.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Gary,

Nice post! Funny how much manual labor comes into play on his courses...hard to top this as a collection of resort courses:
Kiawah
Casa de Campo
Blackwolf River
TPC Sawgrass
Whistling Straits
Harbour Town

Mark

[cary lichtenstein]

Phil:

Hard to compare different people from different eras -- sort of like the baseball issue many people find when discussing the all-time greats.

Suffice to say -- among modern designers -- let's just say from 1960 forward the influence of Pete Dye is significant. Dye introduced -- or likely re-introduced a return to the elements found on so many courses over seas. If memory serves, no less than Dye himself actually went the opposite way of what Robert Trent Jones was doing in order to create his own "brand" identity.

His early works -- Harbour Town, The Golf Club (I rate it the best one I've played), Teeth of the Dog, TPC / Sawgrass, The Ocean Course / Kiawah, Whistling Straits / Straits, Pete Dye GC, et al, clearly brought forward a style at times equally controversial and also edgy. Like the NY Yankees -- Pete Dye brought forward a clear "up" or "down" sentiment -- playing a Pete Dye course always caused a reaction among players and although his later work often times was inconsistent his overall standing is there to be seen. In many ways Dye was the trailblazer for what others are doing today -- namely Doak and a few others as well. Just look at the names of people who formerly worked with and what they each contributed.

In my mind, easily among the ten best architects of all time and at the top of the list among practicing architects for the period between 1960 and 2000.

I'll second this...well written as well

Whistling Straits probably shows his genius more than anyother course as it was done from nothing.

[Kalen Braley]

Based on the posts in this thread, it sounds like Pete Dye should be included in the HOF?

Would this be a consensus yes or no??

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Pete Dye could possibly be responsible for the creating the restoration boom.  I never saw Piping Rock before his involvement.  Hopefully, TE Paul can describe Piping Rock before and after.  For me, the after is how I always look at restorations and wonder how they failed to get it like PR did.
    And today, he is ahead of the curve on firm and fast with his design of the Dye Fore.  This is a work of genius that is the ultimate in incorporating playing angles.  Though the pictures fail to do it justice, those who have not played Dye Fore should check out the thread and observe the tremendous width.  

[paul cowley]

I can only answer in a general sense, analogous to contrasting which is better.....Mission Style or Bauhaus?....Jazz over Country....Impressionism or Art Nouveau?

All are successful and proven Styles ......and I think Pete in his lifetime has created a style that will endure and continue to evolve long after he leaves his earthly green pastures.

[TEPaul]

"If you could measure "influence," (changing the direction of design.........)...who would come second after Pete Dye?"

Contemporaneous with the span of Pete's career how could anyone deny that it would have to be say Tom Fazio or one or two others of the high production architects of the last 3-4 decades? To say Fazio hasn't had a significant influence on the direction and evolution of modern architecture would be completely denying the obvious.

This isn't just in the context of what GOLFCLUBALTASers like, it should be in the context of the "Big World" opinion on golf architecture.

So, I'm sure it's very debatable to say who would come behind Pete or exactly where Pete fits in but one thing I'm pretty confident about is that Pete would come in second at best as a significant influence on the direction and evolution of Modern American architecture, or just American architecture, or perhaps even architecture generally.

I can't imagine how any golf architecture analyst or golf architecture historian could possibly deny that Robert Trent Jones had the most significant influence on Modern American golf architecture, perhaps American architecture generally or maybe even golf architecture as a whole.

For God Sakes, RTJ just about single handledly created the Modern Age of golf architecture and so much about its basic type and style, and that type and style was a massive seachange in almost every way from what came before it.

One does not have to like that type and style or even RTJ to admit this is true.

One should also recognize that that massively significant "Modern Age" type and style of golf architecture that lasted perhaps 50 years is now winding down somewhat and becoming slightly passe as all things probably do throughout the entire evolution of a particular art form.

The so-called "Modern Age" style that is largely American is taking its place in history now and it seems the art form is looking in other directions now. As it does there's no question some of it is being influenced by a form of "looking back"!

We should all realize we are now perhaps just about in the middle of what could fairly be termed the first real "renaissance" in the history of golf course architecture.

[Peter Pallotta]

TE
this question is so broad as to probably be unanswerable, but:

Any guesses about what this renaissance will usher in over the next few decades, i.e. what new -- or perhaps rediscovered -- ideas, approaches and developments in gca?

The original renaissance in art and science spanned at least a couple of centuries, I think; and while I don't expect that kind of time frame in the gca context, it may be that we are in the midst of a movement that will continue to evolve for quite some time yet.

Any ideas on what direction that evolution might take? Any personal preferences for a particular direction?

Thanks
Peter